Norwegians shocking demise of quality on all fronts

[RocketMan275]

8 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

The point is...this place started by grandma and grandpa (not mine) and now run by the second generation is doing just fine. Their driveway in town has a late model BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, and Ford F-150. The house is one of the nicest in town. They're doing just fine for themselves and they're providing the best possible experience for their customers.

 

They had COVID issues too. I live in NY. We shut down. Hard. For three to four months. Sure, it wasn't as long as the cruise lines, but it was long enough for a small, family business. They have inflationary costs. Guess what. Since June of 2022, the cost of their pizza has not gone up one cent. Not one. They're still making the best pizza around and are the busiest restaurant I go into. 

Bad analogy.  Since they've been in business for many years and are obviously doing well economically, it's inappropriate to compare them with a cruise line which had to assume a very large debt load to get through COVID.  I'm not at all sure the pizza joint had to assume any debt.  Nor would their costs to restart be comparable to those of a cruise line.  Nor, is it safe to assume that the costs and inflation impacts associated with a pizza business are anyway comparable to that of a cruise line.  

Your analogy does not prove that NCL is just greedy.

[cruiseny4life]

Just now, RocketMan275 said:

Bad analogy.  Since they've been in business for many years and are obviously doing well economically, it's inappropriate to compare them with a cruise line which had to assume a very large debt load to get through COVID.  I'm not at all sure the pizza joint had to assume any debt.  Nor would their costs to restart be comparable to those of a cruise line.  Nor, is it safe to assume that the costs and inflation impacts associated with a pizza business are anyway comparable to that of a cruise line.  

Your analogy does not prove that NCL is just greedy.

First, I don't and won't buy your premise.

 

Secondly, NCL is greedy. All publicly held corporations are. That's Capitalism. 

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

First, I don't and won't buy your premise.

 

Secondly, NCL is greedy. All publicly held corporations are. That's Capitalism. 

I provide reasons to reject  your premise.  You provided none in rejecting mine other than your dislike for capitalism.  BTW, capitalism and 'greedy corporations' are what has made cruise lines possible.

Edited March 6 by RocketMan275

[cruiseny4life]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I provide reasons to reject  your premise.  You provided none in rejecting mine other than your dislike for capitalism.  BTW, capitalism and 'greedy corporations' are what has made cruise lines possible.

I dislike Capitalism? No. I dislike poorly run companies. Especially those I have (had?) an affinity for. I enjoy my 401(k) increasing as I would like to retire sometime. 

[RocketMan275]

Just now, cruiseny4life said:

I dislike Capitalism? No. I dislike poorly run companies. Especially those I have (had?) an affinity for. I enjoy my 401(k) increasing as I would like to retire sometime. 

You've not given any rationale for considering NCL to be a poorly run company.  Are we to assume that all  poorly run corporations are greedy?

[JamieLogical]

I don't know that NCL is making their current business decisions based on greed, I am just not convinced they are making the right business decisions for the company to be successful long term. There is no question that all of the publicly traded cruise lines took on huge amounts of debt during the shutdown. There is no question that inflation is happening/has been happening worldwide. There is no question that onboarding new staff post-COVID has been more challenging for them. Something has to give. I am just not convinced that NCL is striking he right balance of increased cost and reduced services. Cuts probably needed to be made, but I am not certain they have chosen the right cuts to make to keep their customers satisfied that they are getting good value for their dollar. And, which COVID/inflation is a good excuse for some cuts, remember that they began making some cuts before the shut-down. Remember when FAS included three specialty meals for a 7-day sailing?

[Menocchio]

Lots of people in this thread talking about "inflation" as if it were some unavoidable force of nature (or at least, solely the responsibility of a disconnected government) that's completely outside of the control of the suppliers. It is not.

 

A lot of the "inflation" we've been seeing lately isn't due to inflated monetary supply, but by merchants simply raising their prices. This is partially because many raised prices by necessity due to pandemic-connected supply issues and often noticed that demand did not fall precipitously when they did, so when supply increased again they simply did not lower prices. Profits are up across many business sectors. This is why we see some businesses (usually smaller, privately-held ones) who can hold on to both their quality and their lower prices. This is a choice they are making. 

 

Now, that's not to say that NCL (or any cruise line) is a prime offender in this. I'm sure they're getting charged more too. Especially for fuel, but also food and contract services. Also I'm hardly going to riot about what's essentially a luxury product.

 

But I think for the most part any cost-cutting or price increase is due to two factors:

1. Running down debts from the pandemic shutdown.

2. Because they can. 

 

That's not an NCL exclusive. This seems to be happening across almost all major cruise brands, with accompanying degradation in quality. Heck, I just watched a review for MSC where the reviewers (who were not MSC fans) admitted they felt MSC hadn't so much improved as everyone else was getting worse and falling to a similar level.

 

And if everybody is failing together, then nobody has a reason to do better. 

 

[laudergayle]

11 pages now, and there is one truth we can all agree on.  NCL has cut service, eliminated some crowd favorites, modified menus and in some cases is using lower quality ingredients, has changed entertainment direction, and…for all different reasons has skipped scheduled ports of call.  
 

NCL ships are sailing full…at the moment.

 

NCL no longer offers a competitive advantage or differentiator from other cruise lines.  Why is this important?  The competitive advantage is what keeps cruisers loyal to a brand.  Lacking this, cruisers are more likely to shop around.  
 

Shopping around has become a frequent comment of posters on this thread.  The thread for those of us who like NCL enough to participate in the NCL forum on CC.  
 

This should be a Big Red Light for the NCL brand marketing team.  

[edspec]

I will not be booking NCL until I can reasonably expect:

1. Entertainment other than game shows.

2. That the itinerary I book will be the itinerary I sail, barring unforseen weather or mechanical problems. What's up with them dropping the Napali coast cruising on POA? Antartica anyone?

3. That my cabin will be serviced no later than 2 each day AND that I have access to my cabin on embarkation day no later than 1:30.

4. That a drink package in Europe starts at embarkation, not whatever time NCL decides it does...last summer's cruises where NCL blamed local laws for delay...why weren't other cruise lines affected?

I really liked NCL since I often cruise solo but their cuts have ruined the product for me.

[laudergayle]

7 minutes ago, Menocchio said:

And if everybody is failing together, then nobody has a reason to do better. 

Spot on.

 

The winner will be the one who takes advantage of this same/same situation.

 

 

[cruiseny4life]

25 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

You've not given any rationale for considering NCL to be a poorly run company.  Are we to assume that all  poorly run corporations are greedy?

Here's a snippet:

 

Source: https://www.nclhltd.com/investors/news-events/press-releases/detail/584/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-reports-strong-fourth

 

And, specifically greed over customer experience from NCLH's new "transformation office (aka cost cutting, reduce customer experience office)"

 

 

 

Though, I'm sure you'll point to Sommer claiming: "we are operating as efficiently as possible, while delivering experiences our guests value." Sorry, Dirty Harry, but I'm not valuing what I hear coming out about NCL's customer experience, especially in the Haven.

 

Source: https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/finance-legal-regulatory/nclhs-new-transformation-office-drives-cultural-shift-costs

 

I understand folks may not want to believe NCL is cutting costs, but they are. And, that can be good. Depending on what is cut. When it is detrimental to the guest's experience, especially a guest who purchased a cruise ticket in 2022 under much different benefits being offered, then it's plain greedy. It's also not good management as retaining customers is almost always less expensive than finding new customers. Here's a look from the most recent NCLH investor call where year over year customer daily cost is flat, even when taking inflation into account. That means, simply put, cuts are happening. Cuts that many here (and elsewhere have discussed). The first paragraph provides context for the second, but is in reference to fuel cost which has been subtracted from the "adjusted net cruise cost":

 

Source: https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2024/02/27/norwegian-cruise-line-nclh-q4-2023-earnings-call-t/

[DCGuy64]

17 minutes ago, edspec said:

I will not be booking NCL

You could have stopped right there. The conditions you put aren't likely to come to fruition anytime soon, in my opinion.

[RocketMan275]

5 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Here's a snippet:

 

Source: https://www.nclhltd.com/investors/news-events/press-releases/detail/584/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-reports-strong-fourth

 

And, specifically greed over customer experience from NCLH's new "transformation office (aka cost cutting, reduce customer experience office)"

 

 

 

Though, I'm sure you'll point to Sommer claiming: "we are operating as efficiently as possible, while delivering experiences our guests value." Sorry, Dirty Harry, but I'm not valuing what I hear coming out about NCL's customer experience, especially in the Haven.

 

Source: https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/finance-legal-regulatory/nclhs-new-transformation-office-drives-cultural-shift-costs

 

I understand folks may not want to believe NCL is cutting costs, but they are. And, that can be good. Depending on what is cut. When it is detrimental to the guest's experience, especially a guest who purchased a cruise ticket in 2022 under much different benefits being offered, then it's plain greedy. It's also not good management as retaining customers is almost always less expensive than finding new customers. Here's a look from the most recent NCLH investor call where year over year customer daily cost is flat, even when taking inflation into account. That means, simply put, cuts are happening. Cuts that many here (and elsewhere have discussed). The first paragraph provides context for the second, but is in reference to fuel cost which has been subtracted from the "adjusted net cruise cost":

 

Source: https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2024/02/27/norwegian-cruise-line-nclh-q4-2023-earnings-call-t/

All successful companies are always looking for ways to cut costs since cost cutting improves the bottom line quicker and better than improved sales.  

The thing  you're overlooking is all corporations have a target demographic they market too.  What is NCL target demographic and how do these cuts affect that demographic?

[graphicguy]

In summation (if I can be so bold)...

 

OP states NCL has cut "quality across the board".  That's false.  They have not.  I have been on their sailings as recently as a few weeks ago, on one of their newest ships.  I have a lot of first hand experience with NCL.  That's not a brag.  It just "is".

 

I think most, just by the nature of posting here, like NCL.  Now, they may not like some of the entertainment (me included), they may not like some of the new ship(s)(I do), they may not like this or that, but you're here.  That means, overall, it's worth it for them to take a look at NCL, be they new cruisers or grizzled vets.

 

Some of us have sailed other lines, a lot....both pre and post COVID.  Again, I stalk those other cruise lines' threads, too (although I may not comment as much as I do here).  You see the same types of posts and arguments.

 

The only constant is change.  

 

If you want the NCL cruise, or the Carnival cruise, or the Royal cruise, etc of yesteryear....It's gone.  Just like tuxes and gowns are gone.  Lots of hand ringing in these threads about the "formal night" going away.  Me?  I applaud it.

 

Smoking areas are severely restricted....and moving towards being eliminated.  Some don't like that.  Most do.  Personally?  I do not like smokers being made pariahs.  Stick to the areas you're allowed to smoke, and we're all good.  But, given the small demographic that makes up smokers (and rapidly shrinking) the fact is, they are no longer being courted by cruise lines, overall.

 

Fares..,.this one befuddles me the most.  I sent some example fares on an itinerary and date(s) I'm personally looking at.  Comparing NCL to their competition, they are extremely competitive.  FAS has been a game changer in the industry, as was "Freestyle", as was "ship within a ship Haven concept".  NCL is and has been an innovator.  They are also a business that needs to make money (same with Carnival and Royal and MSC).  NCL's fares offer really good value.  Go look at Icon of the Seas fares (Royal's newest ship) and compare them to NCL's Viva (their newest ship).  Add in drinks, some Specialty Dining, etc and the pricing delta becomes pretty large.

 

I know some have been able to nail down an MSC fare that is competitive, too.  But, it's not "night and day" differences (if there is much difference at all).

 

I was here when there were stock players trying to drive down NCL stock because they shorted it during COVID.  I thought that was pretty sleezy.  Many of them got their hat handed to them. 

 

I was here when people made fun of NCL for requiring COVID vaccines and testing for all crew and guests.  They stumbled a bit during the restart (which really PO'd me with their promises that weren't kept), but it turned out their policies got people back on their ships the quickest...innovators.

 

Although I've sailed NCL the most, I have sailed the other lines quite a bit, too.  If you don't want to sail NCL, no harm-no foul.  But dang, as always, the incessant whining (not being a critic...but out and out whine post after post) is toxic.  It helps no one.  And, NCL needs to do what they're going to do.  They are financially going in the right direction.  They may not take you with them, but they're going.  No one's going to convince you to like one cruise line over another. That's your decision.

 

If MSC or Carnival or Royal or Celebrity fits the bill for you better, they are happy to have you come over to their side of the cruise industry.  I'm sure NCL feels the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cruiseny4life]

27 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

All successful companies are always looking for ways to cut costs since cost cutting improves the bottom line quicker and better than improved sales.  

The thing  you're overlooking is all corporations have a target demographic they market too.  What is NCL target demographic and how do these cuts affect that demographic?

That last question is a really great one! I'm not sure. I sit through sales seminars from NCL staff. Actually was on one Monday evening. Missed one last night, but I have the recording. 

 

I do know one demographic they are targeting are solo cruisers. That is absolutely true and was directly spoken about on Monday evening. 

 

Other demographics? It's confusing. They try to pitch themselves as everyone's cruise line. They show old people. They show families. They claim luxury. They claim best value. 

 

So, yea. I don't know!  

[Menocchio]

23 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

  What is NCL target demographic and how do these cuts affect that demographic?

That's the million dollar question.

I think for the mass market lines like NCL the answer to "who is the target demographic" is "everyone". Families, young adults, retirees, couples, solos, large groups, budget vacationers, and luxury travelers. Who is the target demographic for Delta, or Hilton? 

 

I think they are being quite successful in courting solo travelers (at least, they're offering a great product for solos, I don't know how many are actually biting). I think they are struggling a bit for the luxury market as the Haven seems quite divisive even among people who would book on the Haven.

 

[RocketMan275]

9 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

That last question is a really great one! I'm not sure. I sit through sales seminars from NCL staff. Actually was on one Monday evening. Missed one last night, but I have the recording. 

 

I do know one demographic they are targeting are solo cruisers. That is absolutely true and was directly spoken about on Monday evening. 

 

Other demographics? It's confusing. They try to pitch themselves as everyone's cruise line. They show old people. They show families. They claim luxury. They claim best value. 

 

So, yea. I don't know!  

Amenities and price are the key indicators of their target demographic.  

NCL is the only cruise line I know that has studio cabins for solos so they capitalize on that in their targeting.  The Haven allows them to target a more upscale demographic than the rest of the ship which is somewhere between Carnival and RCCI.  Their pictures in the ads are just scatter gunning.  

[RocketMan275]

5 minutes ago, Menocchio said:

That's the million dollar question.

I think for the mass market lines like NCL the answer to "who is the target demographic" is "everyone". Families, young adults, retirees, couples, solos, large groups, budget vacationers, and luxury travelers. Who is the target demographic for Delta, or Hilton? 

 

I think they are being quite successful in courting solo travelers (at least, they're offering a great product for solos, I don't know how many are actually biting). I think they are struggling a bit for the luxury market as the Haven seems quite divisive even among people who would book on the Haven.

 

What is divisive about the Haven?

When you start talking about cutbacks and demographic targets, you have to be very specific about which cutbacks and how they affect specific demographics.  Cutbacks in gokarts and waterslides don't affect all demographics equally.  Cutbacks in top end champagne only affects those who might purchase the Beverage plus package.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Bad analogy.  Since they've been in business for many years and are obviously doing well economically, it's inappropriate to compare them with a cruise line which had to assume a very large debt load to get through COVID.  I'm not at all sure the pizza joint had to assume any debt.  Nor would their costs to restart be comparable to those of a cruise line.  Nor, is it safe to assume that the costs and inflation impacts associated with a pizza business are anyway comparable to that of a cruise line.  

Your analogy does not prove that NCL is just greedy.

You really think a pizza place has not been affected by inflation? Have you bought groceries lately? The price for their ingredients has skyrocketed.

 

Now it may not be the best analogy, but a pizza place would be one of the hardest hit businesses by inflation.

[Menocchio]

3 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

What is divisive about the Haven?

I'm not in that market, but I've seen a lot of chatter that it doesn't offer good enough quality of service relative to the price or to similar products on other cruise lines. It's not sufficiently all-inclusive, the exclusive spaces aren't good enough, the butlers and concierges aren't attentive or useful enough and also are very eager to let you know they aren't covered by the (higher) gratuities already being paid. And so on. I don't know how new these complaints are, exactly. And admittedly these are all subjective things I've heard secondhand. People do seem to like the rooms themselves, the private elevator, and the embarkation/disembarkation perks. 

 

[UKstages]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Nor, is it safe to assume that the costs and inflation impacts associated with a pizza business are anyway comparable to that of a cruise line.  

 

where have you been the past few years?

 

restaurants and small businesses were among the hardest hit by covid. customers couldn't go out of their homes. restaurants had to pivot to a takeout and/or delivery business and a "selling raw ingredients to cook at home" business. if they were able to make it past the initial covid closures and reopen, they had to deal with physical distance limitations which cut their money making potential by limiting the number of tables they could serve. and they had to deal with supply chain issues which limited their ability to get the products they needed to cook and clean. and the cost of those products, from toilet paper to paper towels to canned tomatoes to mozzarella spiraled out of control.

 

the "costs and inflation impacts" are absolutely comparable for a business of this size, with one notable exception... NCL was likely far better able to handle covid precisely because of its large size and its ability to take on debt!  an estimated 70,000 restaurants in the USA weren't as lucky... they closed, the impact of covid could easily kill a small business like a pizzeria.

 

based on @cruiseny4life's description, my best guess is that this is a family business run by people with deep commitments to the community. yes, they want to make money, but they also care about the community. sounds to me like they are probably making far less money than they used to. if they haven't raised prices or lowered their quality standards, even as their costs have surely risen, then they have to be subsidizing every meal. they had excellent margins pre-covid, and they probably still have decent margins, and they just feel like they can't raise prices because it would be a disservice to the community. that will change at some point and they will most likely have to raise prices. and my best guess is their customers will fully support them and have only one question: "what took you so long?"

 

oh, @cruiseny4life, for the record, chicken, bacon and ranch - like pineapple - do not belong on pizza! that is sacrilege! that's not a pizza... it's a cobb salad! 

 

[erisajd]

3 minutes ago, Menocchio said:

I'm not in that market, but I've seen a lot of chatter that it doesn't offer good enough quality of service relative to the price or to similar products on other cruise lines. It's not sufficiently all-inclusive, the exclusive spaces aren't good enough, the butlers and concierges aren't attentive or useful enough and also are very eager to let you know they aren't covered by the (higher) gratuities already being paid. And so on. I don't know how new these complaints are, exactly. And admittedly these are all subjective things I've heard secondhand. People do seem to like the rooms themselves, the private elevator, and the embarkation/disembarkation perks. 

 

Ok - so YOU are not in that market. . . . others may be.  I pay my money and takes my choice - like you.  

[RocketMan275]

11 minutes ago, UKstages said:

the "costs and inflation impacts" are absolutely comparable for a business of this size, with one notable exception... NCL was likely far better able to handle covid precisely because of it

No doubt they have been affected by inflation and by COVID. Still, a single long time family owned pizza business isn't a good analogy with a multi-billion dollar cruise line.

[UKstages]

6 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

No doubt they have been affected by inflation and by COVID. Still, a single long time family owned pizza business isn't a good analogy with a multi-billion dollar cruise line.

 

it was an effen brilliant analogy within the specific context of businesses raising prices and pizza, both of which were being discussed! the small family run pizzeria is a business! they serve pizza! they have not raised prices!

 

one could not possibly hope for a more apt comparison.

 

Edited March 6 by UKstages

[laudergayle]

For all those wondering about target market.  It is likely everyone in the mid market …which is broad.  Therefore they really need a reason why NCL is the right choice.  
 

NCL’s current positioning is probably something like the following.  It defines the industry segment, their target market, and Freestyle being their competitive advantage.  

 

NCL is the mid market cruise line for leisure travelers seeking an unparalleled experience with freestyle cruising.  Our cruisers have the choice to dine when and where they want with industry leading dining options.  Freestyle cruising offers the freedom and flexibility to ensure you have time to enjoy all of our onboard entertainment.

 

From this positioning statement it would be up to NCL marketing and operations to vet what those industry leading dining options and onboard entertainment is that creates an unparalleled experience.  

 

Post 2021, all of the changes NCL has made have denigrated the elements that deliver an “unparalleled” experience.  Yes they still have Freestyle cruising…but it doesn’t link back to anything that makes them more special than any other cruise line.  The ops (cost cutters) team is getting their choices at the expense of the branding team(experience and emotional connection).  This can only last so long.  There will be one mid market cruise line that starts delivering that emotional experience better than the others…and that brand will win.

 

 

Sent from my iPad