Norwegians shocking demise of quality on all fronts

[bkrickles1]

12 minutes ago, Menocchio said:

I'm not in that market, but I've seen a lot of chatter that it doesn't offer good enough quality of service relative to the price or to similar products on other cruise lines. It's not sufficiently all-inclusive, the exclusive spaces aren't good enough, the butlers and concierges aren't attentive or useful enough and also are very eager to let you know they aren't covered by the (higher) gratuities already being paid. And so on. I don't know how new these complaints are, exactly. And admittedly these are all subjective things I've heard secondhand. People do seem to like the rooms themselves, the private elevator, and the embarkation/disembarkation perks. 

 

Where's all the chatter you mention?

Like you I've never stayed in the Haven, but I've been on these forums for years and have read much of what's posted here, and the vast majority of people love their experiences in the Haven and many wouldn't cruise NCL without it.

And before you argue the point, the one thing that confirms what I'm saying is that the Haven sells out virtually every sailing. Sometimes that's because of upgrades but it proves the popularity and the willingness of many to pay an awfully high price for it.

And it's probably not the elevators and embark/debark perks that keeps them coming back. From what I've read the Haven restaurant is great and I'm sure people love their own Observation Lounge on the ships that have that venue.

[RocketMan275]

18 minutes ago, Menocchio said:

I'm not in that market, but I've seen a lot of chatter that it doesn't offer good enough quality of service relative to the price or to similar products on other cruise lines. It's not sufficiently all-inclusive, the exclusive spaces aren't good enough, the butlers and concierges aren't attentive or useful enough and also are very eager to let you know they aren't covered by the (higher) gratuities already being paid. And so on. I don't know how new these complaints are, exactly. And admittedly these are all subjective things I've heard secondhand. People do seem to like the rooms themselves, the private elevator, and the embarkation/disembarkation perks. 

 

Perhaps I'm reading too much into your choice of words but devisive can be defined as tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people.  I don't see where those complaints fit the definition.  I can see where some of the Haven perks might cause resentment on the part of non-Haven passengers.  Especially things like the Haven only elevators on Prima,  Aqua, etc.

[RocketMan275]

6 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

it was an effen brilliant analogy within the specific context of businesses raising prices and pizza, both of which were being discussed! the small family run pizzeria is a business! they serve pizza! they have not raised prices!

 

one could not possibly hope for a more apt comparison.

 

I doubt there is a business school in the country that would agree with you.

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, laudergayle said:

For all those wondering about target market.  It is likely everyone in the mid market …which is broad.  Therefore they really need a reason why NCL is the right choice.  

Costs that exceed other cruise lines will not provid a reason to sail norwegian.  

I'm reminded of the business man who was losing money on each sale but planned to make up his loses on volume.

[bkrickles1]

13 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

No doubt they have been affected by inflation and by COVID. Still, a single long time family owned pizza business isn't a good analogy with a multi-billion dollar cruise line.

I agree. It's a bad analogy for a million different reasons that won't fit in a single post.

A family owned pizza business has how many employees? Do they own or do they rent? How much ppp money did they receive? I know of many small businesses that received so much ppp money that they were able to not only survive quite easily but actually thrive. Not to mention the ridiculously easy loan forgiveness rules that would never apply to a company with the scope of a NCLH.

NCLH has 32 ships, with 5 on order. They have over 40k employees and had close to 3 million customers in 2023.

For me, it's a very bad comparison.

 

With that being said, I'm all in for a large pizza with toppings for $21!

That's a steal in my neighborhood.

 

[laudergayle]

4 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Costs that exceed other cruise lines will not provid a reason to sail norwegian.  

I'm reminded of the business man who was losing money on each sale but planned to make up his loses on volume.

Your statement is too simplistic.   Are you speaking of net cost per passenger at capacity? Are you referring to the cost of delivering a specific service?  Not sure what you’re really suggesting?

 

A cruise is an emotional experience (as witnessed here on cc).  It is not like buying a hammer…which is transactional.  If I can spend more to deliver a cruise experience that emotionally connects to you, the more likely you are to choose my cruise, and pay a premium.  That’s why loyalty programs exist.  If I can fill my ship before yours (assuming we have effective revenue strategies), my cruise will likely do less discounting.

[UKstages]

26 minutes ago, bkrickles1 said:

Like you I've never stayed in the Haven, but I've been on these forums for years and have read much of what's posted here, and the vast majority of people love their experiences in the Haven and many wouldn't cruise NCL without it.

 

and yet we have at least one poster on this thread, a devout haven-only guy, who has said he's noticed how the cutbacks have affected his experience onboard and that he won't be traveling with NCL in 2024. he has taken on a "wait and see" attitude beyond that.

 

24 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I doubt there is a business school in the country that would agree with you.

 

oh, geez, there you go with your straw men again.

 

we were talking about whether the analogy was appropriate. (it was.) 

 

now you've switched it up to argue the specific economics, profit and loss, and financial viability of a business. and that's something very different,

 

i doubt there is a business school that would admit you with that reasoning, but if you do find one, please let us know with whom they agree.

 

Edited March 6 by UKstages

[RocketMan275]

15 minutes ago, bkrickles1 said:

I agree. It's a bad analogy for a million different reasons that won't fit in a single post.

 

That analogy appeals to those who believe all businesses and NCL in particular are out to screw their customers.   Those businesses could lower their prices if they weren't so greedy.

Edited March 6 by RocketMan275

[RocketMan275]

25 minutes ago, UKstages said:

we were talking about whether the analogy was appropriate. (it was.) 

 

now you've switched it up to argue the specific economics, profit and loss, and financial viability of a business. and that's something very different,

Of course the "specific economics, profit and loss, and financial viability of a business" of the businesses are very different and that is exactly why that is a bad analogy.

[detroitlions]

Man this thread is all over the place. We got pizza, butlers, inflation, greedy folks, rip offs, cuts and Haven vs non Haven.

If you are new to cruising and you happened to find CC you probably would not book a cruise reading this stuff.

All I have to remember is this is a vacation a cruise vacation no cooking no cleaning no working sounds good to me sign me up. 

[cruiseny4life]

56 minutes ago, UKstages said:

and yet we have at least one poster on this thread, a devout haven-only guy, who has said he's noticed how the cutbacks have affected his experience onboard and that he won't be traveling with NCL in 2024. he has taken on a "wait and see" attitude beyond that.

Hey, that's me! 🙂 

 

43 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

That analogy appeals to those who believe all businesses and NCL in particular are out to screw their customers.   Those businesses could lower their prices if they weren't so greedy.

The analogy doesn't really have anything to do with P&L, revenue, expense, etc. It has more to do with emotions, as @laudergayle so eloquently stated (without using my analogy) is quality and emotions. Loyalty is built upon quality of a product, and very typically, an emotional appeal. 

 

You're simply concentrating on your opinion. Not the true issue. The pizza place will have my loyalty. Why? It's a quality product. And, the value is there as I feel like I'm getting a damn good deal for the pizza I order. 

 

In 2022, my first NCL cruise...I felt a value. I felt emotion too. The crew were simply great. They seemed to care about my experience. They valued my patronage of their cruise line. That kept me going for four additional cruises. The value was there. The emotional positivity about the shipboard experience was there. You'll see a consistent note throughout my posts going back to 2022 (when I joined) about the corporate office and Frankie Boy Del Rio. I've been direct that the shipboard experience (aka the quality and emotional value) was excellent.

That's no longer the case. I didn't really notice many cutbacks on Pr1ma in November. There were a couple, but nothing I minded too greatly. Now, look at the cutbacks. If someone purchased a $10,000 Haven cruise in November for March, their experience would be different today. And, how different will it be in six months? That is the scary part. The consumer no longer knows what they are going to get. 

 

It's not about a second lobster tail, the availability of cookies, entertainment cutbacks, a lack of hash browns, no Veuve, not being able to use hot tubs on their balcony, not being able to order off the kid's menu in the Haven, no more upcharge mozzarella sticks, being told no to your favorite spirit that should be stocked, etc.. Well, it is a little about all of these little slashes. But, it is the big picture. What's next for the chopping block? 

 

It's all about the value proposition. A tiny little pizza place (I looked, by the way - they did NOT take a PPP loan) in Central New York delivers one hell of a value (both quality wise and emotionally). NCL simply does not. I have a MBA and I remember research comparing Starbucks to tiny third wave coffee shops. Did my professors not understand business and how it works? 

 

24 minutes ago, detroitlions said:

Man this thread is all over the place. We got pizza, butlers, inflation, greedy folks, rip offs, cuts and Haven vs non Haven.

If you are new to cruising and you happened to find CC you probably would not book a cruise reading this stuff.

All I have to remember is this is a vacation a cruise vacation no cooking no cleaning no working sounds good to me sign me up. 

Haha, it sure is! BUT, that's why the title of this post is so appropriate as the "shocking demise of quality..." Some won't admit it. It doesn't hurt some. It hurts me. I thought NCL was the company for me. It pains me to see my husband not be excited about a cruise anymore. He loved his experiences onboard and it made me happy. 

 

All of my complaints, every single one come from a place of privilege. I'm privileged to afford a NCL cruise. I'm privileged to have time off from work or take a couple weeks of unpaid time which I did in November. I'm privileged to have the health to take a long haul flight. I get this entire conversation is all about moaning about first-world problems. 

 

I get those that want a vacation where they don't have to cook, clean, or work. I want the no working thing and appreciate not having to cook or clean. But, I want my leisure time to be as special as possible. I want relaxation. I want to visit really cool places. I want to spend time with my husband. I want to eat great food. And, I want the money I spent on my vacation to go toward the vacation I paid for. Not the vacation NCL decided for me after final payment (says the guy posting on Cruise Critic while working). 

 

58 minutes ago, bkrickles1 said:

Not to mention the ridiculously easy loan forgiveness rules that would never apply to a company with the scope of a NCLH.

NCLH couldn't get a PPP loan, because they're not flagged in the United States. Plenty of big companies received PPP loans, but PPP loans aren't really the topic of this debate. 

Edited March 6 by cruiseny4life

[CruiseMH]

22 hours ago, UKstages said:

 

as for loyal customers, it is far cheaper in almost every business to keep the customers you have, rather than acquire new ones. it's a fundamental business marketing principle.

Based on my experience in business it is exactly the other way around. It is not hard to acquire new customers but it is really hard to keep them especially when the competition is as tough as it is in the cruise industry.

 

But maybe it depends on the type of business.

Edited March 6 by CruiseMH

[CruiseMH]

6 hours ago, dexddd said:

That was the rational for China a few years back.  Didn't work there.

China and US/Europe are completely different in almost all kinds of cultural things.But you are right,for most cruise lines it didn`t work well.

 

[cruiseny4life]

5 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

Based on my experience in business it is exactly the other way around. It is not hard to acquire new customers but it is really hard to keep them especially when the competition is as tough as it is in the cruise industry.

 

But maybe it depends on the type of business.

I've always been under the impression business wants to retain their customers as a loyal customer is more profitable. See this HBR article - you don't even have to read too far. It's the opening paragraph:

 

Source: https://hbr.org/2014/10/the-value-of-keeping-the-right-customers

 

Granted, the article is from 2014, but I doubt the numbers have moved much. There is a reason that I continue to have a subscription to the NY Times for $4/month three years after starting it. I cancel the subscription. Then they offer the previous deal to me. I believe this is what happens when you attempt to cancel a cable subscription too. 

 

If you actually read the article (I know HBR isn't for everyone), you'll notice companies should look to keep the "right customers." Not every customer. I'm betting Frankie Boy read this one day and came up with the market to fill based approach to marketing NCL's cruises.

 

 

But, I can assure you they want to keep many of their customers. If they didn't, Platinum members would no longer receive free laundry and specialty dinners as a thank you for their loyalty. 

[bkrickles1]

15 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

NCLH couldn't get a PPP loan, because they're not flagged in the United States. Plenty of big companies received PPP loans, but PPP loans aren't really the topic of this debate. 

And that's what I meant by scope of company.

And, when you brought up covid and how they were hurt also by the pandemic, you opened the door to PPP loans being a part of it regardless of whether they took one or not

And, the fact that NCLH couldn't get a ppp loan meant that they had to borrow in other ways to stay afloat (get it) that won't allow for the same forgiveness as the ppp ones.

 

BTW I'm ordering a large plain pie later this afternoon to have for dinner with my wife and daughter and it will cost me $22 plus tax.

[cruiseny4life]

4 minutes ago, bkrickles1 said:

And that's what I meant by scope of company.

And, when you brought up covid and how they were hurt also by the pandemic, you opened the door to PPP loans being a part of it regardless of whether they took one or not

And, the fact that NCLH couldn't get a ppp loan meant that they had to borrow in other ways to stay afloat (get it) that won't allow for the same forgiveness as the ppp ones.

 

BTW I'm ordering a large plain pie later this afternoon to have for dinner with my wife and daughter and it will cost me $22 plus tax.

Enjoy! A plain is $19 at the place I've been talking about. And, oh so good too! $0.50 per additional topping on a large. They've built their pricing structure so with tax it's always a $0.50 or $.00 ending. I love them for that too!  

 

@UKstages, I've been turned into a convert in regard to the chicken bacon ranch only at the pizza joint I've been talking about. We have a place close to my employer that has $2 slices every Tuesday. I tried a chicken bacon ranch yesterday. Gross! Never again. We get the half everything else, because of me. 🙂 

 

I agree with you about plenty of debt floating around for NCLH. Good debt? Bad debt? I'm sure a lot of it is bad from before the unpleasantness. Somewhere around $6,000,000,000. They had $930,000,000 in net revenue, so probably mostly good debt. But, hey, they're net positive now. And many of the cuts, not all, started in 2024, not 2023. Being net positive, they could focus a wee bit on making the customer experience more positive, but they're not. Instead they'll do everything in their power to create greater value for shareholders. 

[PATRLR]

34 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

Based on my experience in business it is exactly the other way around.It is not hard to acquire new customers but it is really hard to keep them especially when the competition is as tough as it is in the cruise industry.

 

But maybe it depends on the type of business.

As someone stated earlier in this thread, I don't think there is a business school in the country that would agree with "It is not hard to acquire new customers but it is really hard to keep them especially when the competition is as tough as it is in the cruise industry."  Especially the first part (customer acquisition). 

I'm not challenging your experiences, just challenging the thought that it is common in business.

[PATRLR]

2 hours ago, graphicguy said:

OP states NCL has cut "quality across the board".  That's false.  They have not.

@graphicguy I like reading your posts, generally agree with your opinions but this one really caught me.   

So your opinion (observation?) is that over the last few years, the quality on NCL has remained steady, no decrease?  Your post talks about "changes".  Changes can include decreases in quality, right?  

As one example, the change from filet to sirloin in Teppenyaki - would that not be a decrease in quality?  How about the elimination of 1/2 and 1/2 in favor of whatever-it-is-the-use now for coffee creamer?  Would that not be a change representative of a decrease in quality?

I too intend to continue cruising on NCL.  We've got some CNs still to use, I suspect our planned 2025 Med will be on NCL (if not something sooner).  But that doesn't mean I haven't noticed a decrease in quality, similar to what the OP describes.

[graphicguy]

4 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

@graphicguy I like reading your posts, generally agree with your opinions but this one really caught me.   

So your opinion (observation?) is that over the last few years, the quality on NCL has remained steady, no decrease?  Your post talks about "changes".  Changes can include decreases in quality, right?  

As one example, the change from filet to sirloin in Teppenyaki - would that not be a decrease in quality?  How about the elimination of 1/2 and 1/2 in favor of whatever-it-is-the-use now for coffee creamer?  Would that not be a change representative of a decrease in quality?

I too intend to continue cruising on NCL.  We've got some CNs still to use, I suspect our planned 2025 Med will be on NCL (if not something sooner).  But that doesn't mean I haven't noticed a decrease in quality, similar to what the OP describes.

Thanks.  Like yours as well.

 

Service is as good ( better in some instances).

 

I think food has improved.  I said before, I found INDULGE better than anything in Garden Cafe.

 

The ships I’ve been on have been maintained impeccably!

 

Go Carts, Laser Tag, Galaxy Pavilion are not my cup of tea (actually, I really like the race track), but they seem quite popular in addition to the slides, kiddie pools, and way better than the former climbing walls!

 

I could go on, but you catch the drift.  

 

There are some things worseZ. Cagney’s steaks have become smaller.  There has been a shift of some liquors from included on FAS over to FAS Plus!

 

LeBistro did used to be much better in both taste and presentation!

[kalypso333]

As the majority of mainstream lines race to the bottom, notice the rise of Virgin Voyages. They seem to know what they deliver and sticking to it looks to be a winner for them. I agree that this decline can’t go forever before a few reinvent themselves. 

[RocketMan275]

13 minutes ago, UKstages said:

the poster was not comparing NCL to a mom and pop pizzeria per se. the poster is not delusional. the poster does not think that a major cruise line has much in common with a small business.

 

the poster was simply comparing a business that chose to raise its prices and chose to diminish its product with a business that chose to make no adjustments to the quality of its product and chose not to raise its prices. it really is as simple as that.

 

those two concepts are inherently scalable.

First  you admit that the two businesses have little in common, then you try to draw conclusions based upon those two businessess that have nothing in common.

You don't think that is absurd?

[PATRLR]

32 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I think food has improved.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  As I said elsewhere, we thought the MDR was so bad on Viva that for the first time ever (35 years) we planned to eat dinner in the buffet just to see if that might be a better experience.

I agree that the concept of Indulge is an improvement over buffets, I don't necessarily think the food itself is all that much better in Indulge today than the buffets of the past (pre covid).  Indulge did have better food than the buffet during my one experience on Viva in December, but some of what I liked in Indulge was just relocated from buffets on other ships (e.g. Indian).

Thanks for the response. 

[cruiseny4life]

23 minutes ago, UKstages said:

and now, switching gears... just a general question... how do all you guys and gals in business school and those of you with your fancy MBAs and your big deal jobs in finance and you guys and gals who hold executive positions in the cruise industry who know the business inside and out... how do you find the time to cut class or take time away from your meetings and your mergers and your acquisitions to share your in-depth knowledge on cruise critic?

Not a fancy MBA. Just a run of the mill MBA. My school's claim to fame is that it is the birthplace of ROTC. And I'm sure not in finance! Just a run of the mill, average HR guy. I've held the fancy positions before. I'm an anti-40 under 40 (even though I'm almost 41 - eeeeek). I don't want that anymore - 70 - 80 hour work weeks don't allow time for me to enjoy Cruise Critic and time with my husband, dogs, and cat!

 

I suppose you'd call me a "quiet quitter." I do the minimum necessary now. No more. No less. And that's how I find time to have lovely conversations with all you cruise folks! I'm actually finding this one really interesting, insightful, and spirited! 

[CWMixer]

Just back from a 7D cruise on Epic, and reading through this thread. 

3 cruises in past 3 years (Breakaway, Bliss, Joy).

Any noticeable declines in quality compared to prior 3?

Yes.

Any approaching a "shocking demise", individually or collectively?

Absolutely not.

However, NCL pricing on future cruises can be "shocking".

Our 02/23 cruise on Joy vs 02/25 on Joy, with exact same itinerary and room, is up 68%.

No thanks (even if hash browns AND cookies come back).

 

[EngrJones]

4 hours ago, detroitlions said:

We got pizza

Okay, I'll only take blame/credit for the pizza.  I asked a rhetorical question and thar she blows!!! (heavy on the blows).  I haven't spent a dime at Pizza Hut or Dominos for many years.  I really don't think it should be legal for them to even call it pizza.🤣