Current Norovirus on some P&O ships

[kevboy]

I know what I say will be controversial, nevertheless, it needs to be said. I cannot fault most of the measures P&O have in place or their efforts to contain outbreaks.  Two very simple steps that should be taken are ; confine all affected cabin passengers and not just the the infected person and remove Salt and pepper pots  from dining tables in MDR. They have done this in the buffet but for some reason allow potential contamination to remain on tables in MDR. However we need to question our own behaviour as a cause of the spread.I have recently come off Ventura 11- 25th May and the behaviour of some passengers was unbelievable. I experienced a passenger suffering sickness and diarrhoea who was telling people he only had a touch of food poisoning and wasn`t telling anyone because he would get unnecessarily confined. it never occurred to him that he had the virus.( or maybe it did! ) Another diagnosed person had been to the buffet for a take away and was hurrying back to her cabin before she received her check up call from medical staff. A woman asking another passenger if she had any sore throat tablets,men in toilets not even washing their hands. Passengers who cough or sneeze into their hands than just carry on without taking any more steps. I could go on and on but of course we are all aware of these causes of spread. Most caring cruisers take great care both for their own health`s sake and that of other passengers. It is those that don`t care that cause the problem. It only takes a few and spread can be very quick. There is a misconception that steering clear of others if you are infected will limit the spread. This is is a very false premise because infection is spread mainly by touch from surfaces already infected.There are very many Anti Vac stations all around the ship yet most passengers only use them when entering eateries - where they are supervised. We, the cruisers who look so forward to our cruises could and should do so much more to help with the fight against Norovirus instead of just leaving it up to the cruise lines. If we all played our part with diligence the problem would very quickly be resolved.  I will read replies with interest. 

[david63]

Those are all very valid points to which I doubt many (if any) would disagree. The problem is that you cannot change people's behaviour.

 

Passengers not washing hands when on a cruise don't do it because they don't do it when at home.

 

The problem is that people, especially when they are on holiday, do not like being told what to do/what not do - you only need to look back to Covid lockdown to see that demonstrated.

 

Unfortunately this is not going to change anytime soon and as an aside British passengers, in my experience, are better behaved in this respect that many from other countries.

[ovccruiser]

I agree with your comments, however I do not agree with the title of the thread, a tad sensationalising perhaps? 😉

 

As david63 says you cannot educate those who will not listen, simple measures only are needed to rid this virus.

[MyriamS]

My only suggestions would be to have more hand washing stations with soap and water (not hand sanitizer!) and have crew block the way to the buffet, dining rooms... reminding people to wash their hands (they did through singing on RCI, which was both funny and effective).

 

Unfortunately during COVID, many people got the habit of using hand sanitizer which "kills 99% of bacteria" or so the package claim. However, many bacterias are beneficial/neutral and you do not want to kill them, while some nasty bugs like norovirus are unaffected. Of course sometimes you don't have access to soap and water, but on a cruise ship, it should be the norm. 

[carlanthony24]

Spot on. But asking another person for sore throat tablets could mean anything. IE down to air conditioning (Cruise Cough). Its annoying when people watching and they just walk past the hand sanitisers on boarding. 

[Funboy]

On our April cruise on Iona I would say the majority of people entering the Horizon from our end of the ship did not wash their hands and at breakfast time there were no crew to remind them. We saw people filling bottles from the tea stations when it says 'do not' but no-one said anything. When I said to one person we should not do that I was just given an icy stare. Yes, it is down to us, but possibly the crew could prevent people entering the Horizon and other dining areas that have not washed their hands.. 

[9265359]

4 hours ago, kevboy said:

I cannot fault most of the measures P&O have in place or their efforts to contain outbreaks.

 

Having just disembarked from Arvia, I can certainly find fault with P&O, even though we managed to avoid it.

 

Before embarking a week ago we had the "a few guests have experienced symptoms of gastrointestinal illness" email telling us that embarkation was delayed by two hours for a deep clean.

 

For goodness sake, why dance around the issue with "gastrointestinal illness" instead of saying what it is to actually get people's attention.

 

A few days into the cruise all the cabins got a 'please be aware of hygiene' card, but again no mention of norovirus rampaging through the ship.

 

Then a day or so later the menu cards disappeared from the bars and the restaurants went to the menu cards without the holders, and the laundry had a 'we recommend you wash at the highest temperature' notice, but again no mention of norovirus rampaging through the ship.

 

Then at one of the captain's (cringeworthy) announcements there was another 'please be aware of hygiene' piece, but again no mention of norovirus rampaging through the ship. 

 

Meanwhile the salt and pepper pots remained on the tables, the condiments remained on the table in the Sixth Street diner, some tables were occasionally wiped down in the bars and restaurants by the staff after they were vacated, but most were not.

 

I have no idea what was going on in the usual 'lick your fingers and then use the tongs' horror show that is Horizon.

 

And the end result was that the vast majority of passengers were going around in blissful ignorance that anything was wrong - I spoke to many people and overheard many people who had no clue why the menus had been removed from the bars.

 

Then when we were disembarking this morning I overheard mention that embarkation was again delayed for a few hours for a deep clean...

 

If P&O actually want people to sit up and take notice then they need to stop pussyfooting around and actually tell people what the issue is, rather than hiding behind vague terms.

 

Maybe if they told people that there was a serious norovirus outbreak onboard and that the implications of touching anything and then touching your food or your face would potentially result in serious issues, then perhaps, just perhaps people might pay some attention.

 

But the chance of them doing that and not continuing with the box ticking 'keep us out of court whilst not upsetting the customers approach' is absolutely zero.

 

 

[Bartender1]

Totally agree with the original post and I think most of us have seen examples of fellow cruiser's poor hygiene. But as Funboy mentions if you politely raise the issue with the offending person your likely to get an icy stare at best or as we witnessed once in the buffet a young woman commented that gel and hand washing is a waste of time, another guest told her it was for all our benefit resulting in the young woman instantly going into a rage. You just never know what level of reaction your going to receive these days.

[Host Sharon]

On Saga ships, at the entrance to dining venues there are hand-washing stations and everyone is directed to them before being seated.  Purcell is only outside bars and theatre etc. it seems to work well.

[kalos]

4 hours ago, kevboy said:

I know what I say will be controversial, nevertheless, it needs to be said. I cannot fault most of the measures P&O have in place or their efforts to contain outbreaks.  Two very simple steps that should be taken are ; confine all affected cabin passengers and not just the the infected person and remove Salt and pepper pots  from dining tables in MDR.

 

They have done this in the buffet but for some reason allow potential contamination to remain on tables in MDR. However we need to question our own behaviour as a cause of the spread.I have recently come off Ventura 11- 25th May and the behaviour of some passengers was unbelievable. I experienced a passenger suffering sickness and diarrhoea who was telling people he only had a touch of food poisoning and wasn`t telling anyone because he would get unnecessarily confined. it never occurred to him that he had the virus.( or maybe it did! ) Another diagnosed person had been to the buffet for a take away and was hurrying back to her cabin before she received her check up call from medical staff.

A woman asking another passenger if she had any sore throat tablets,men in toilets not even washing their hands. Passengers who cough or sneeze into their hands than just carry on without taking any more steps. I could go on and on but of course we are all aware of these causes of spread. Most caring cruisers take great care both for their own health`s sake and that of other passengers. It is those that don`t care that cause the problem. It only takes a few and spread can be very quick. There is a misconception that steering clear of others if you are infected will limit the spread. This is is a very false premise because infection is spread mainly by touch from surfaces already infected.

 

There are very many Anti Vac stations all around the ship yet most passengers only use them when entering eateries - where they are supervised. We, the cruisers who look so forward to our cruises could and should do so much more to help with the fight against Norovirus instead of just leaving it up to the cruise lines. If we all played our part with diligence the problem would very quickly be resolved.  I will read replies with interest. 

 

All good points but excuse the pun "We are all in the same boat " .We can be held 

responsible for our own actions but not of others and some of those are crew .

Not too long ago I had a MDR waiter stifle a sneeze into their hand look at colleagues

giggle ,then a few moments later ask me "was I ready to order "  Which I told them 

"yes once they washed their hands ."

I have had the misfortune of having to report a waiter who exited the gents toilets

without washing his hands .

 

I also wonder how the ships management treat the staff when they report in sick ?

How long from them saying I feel OK are they put back to work ?

We know that they re-deploy cabin stewards into food outlets after they have finished 

scrubbing their allotted cabins /loos etc .

 

Yes some passengers could do better and so could the ships company .

[CruisingSarah]

I’d like to see P&O get a bit heavier with guests on this issue as I’ve seen before on RCI and NCL.

 

Recently on Britannia which has been fitted with soap and water handwashing stations at buffet entrances like the new ships and they were unused by guests. There were no staff policing entrances and reminding guests to wash/sanitise.

 

A number of the sanitiser dispensers were faulty, I reported it to a member of staff who shrugged and said flat battery, they are solar powered, he didn’t offer me any alternative.  Same thing happened at the MDR but at least there they produced a manual pump dispenser.

 

I couldn’t believe how lax it was given the recent issues on Ventura. 

 

[9265359]

Yes people should obviously wash their hands frequently and use the hand gel, but that only partly tackles the issue.

 

It doesn't tackle the issue of say someone licking their fingers after they have washed them and then touching something which is going to be then touched by other passengers who have also washed their hands - tongs, condiments, chair arms, etc.

 

What is needed is better proactive steps from the cruise line - removing self-service and serving customers in the buffet (which other cruise lines manage to achieve easily), replacing condiments with single use portions, and lots and lots of cleaning - none of which P&O is doing.

 

[kalos]

It's amazing what you see ,when the staff attempt to get folk to gel their hands .

More so in the buffet on Azura /Ventura, they deploy gel staff at both end entrances.

Upon seeing this some folk turn away and then slip in through the middle exit .

In other words they will put more effort into not using the gel  stations .

Over the years we see these threads crop up and some folk have even posted 

"a bit of muck does you good "  and think washing can do harm to their immune 

natural defence system .

A bit like the Noro we will just go around until some folk change their ideas .

[9265359]

11 minutes ago, kalos said:

It's amazing what you see ,when the staff attempt to get folk to gel their hands .

More so in the buffet on Azura /Ventura, they deploy gel staff at both end entrances.

Upon seeing this some folk turn away and then slip in through the middle exit .

In other words they will put more effort into not using the gel  stations .

 

Obviously P&O are aware that people are doing this and that whatever they do some people will not wash their hands / use the gel (or even if they do wash their hands / use the gel then immediately negate that by licking their fingers).

 

In the light of this knowledge then I would expect P&O to set their norovirus protocols to deal with it - as before, removing self-service, removing the condiments, and lots and lots of cleaning, rather than shrugging their shoulders and going "ah well, we tried, not our fault if you fall sick".

[yorkshirephil]

9 minutes ago, kalos said:

It's amazing what you see ,when the staff attempt to get folk to gel their hands .

More so in the buffet on Azura /Ventura, they deploy gel staff at both end entrances.

Upon seeing this some folk turn away and then slip in through the middle exit .

In other words they will put more effort into not using the gel  stations .

Over the years we see these threads crop up and some folk have even posted 

"a bit of muck does you good "  and think washing can do harm to their immune 

natural defence system .

A bit like the Noro we will just go around until some folk change their ideas .

As the old saying goes "Its no good knocking when there is nobody in"

I was reading about a clinical trial that is currently being run by Takeda which is in phase two clinical trial and showing promise plus Moderna is working on a new mRNA vaccine similar to the covid type vaccine which was so successful. So there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I do think that if the cruise lines want passengers to up their game then they should set an example themselves. Skirting around the issue is clearly not working, maybe a shock and awe approach would be better, announce that noro is onboard and that it kills an estimated 200000 people a year. Oh yes that may frighten people off cruising and reduce profits (Can't help being an old cynic)

[david63]

And how many passengers do you see ignoring the gel stations when re-boarding the ship when having been ashore?

 

I do think though that one of the problems with hand washing/gel stations is when you are carrying something - especially coming back on in port - you have to have your cruise card available as a minimum. This is certainly an area that is improved with Princess and the medallion - in fact the medallion because there is no need for anyone to touch it is an area where there is some reduction in the spreading noro.

[Adawn47]

17 hours ago, Funboy said:

On our April cruise on Iona I would say the majority of people entering the Horizon from our end of the ship did not wash their hands and at breakfast time there were no crew to remind them. We saw people filling bottles from the tea stations when it says 'do not' but no-one said anything. When I said to one person we should not do that I was just given an icy stare. Yes, it is down to us, but possibly the crew could prevent people entering the Horizon and other dining areas that have not washed their hands.. 

More hand washing stations, or blocking access to food areas will,unfortunately,  notsolve this problem. I was behind a woman who used the hand gel on entry, then blew her nose, stuffed the used tissue into her jeans and went on to serve herself from the salad bar.

No amount of onboard precautions is a cure for a passenger's bad hygiene.

Avril

Edited June 10 by Adawn47

[9265359]

1 hour ago, david63 said:

And how many passengers do you see ignoring the gel stations when re-boarding the ship when having been ashore?

 

Given that norovirus is rampaging around onboard and not onshore, then surely the issue is people not using the gel stations as they disembark at ports to help prevent it being transferred off the ship!

[Clodia]

I am allergic to the handgel so always wash with soap and water before entering the buffet; it would be useful if you could do so in other dining venues too. In 25 years of cruising I have never caught norovirus even when it was obvious that it was on the ship, and put it down to proper washing with soap and water.

[9265359]

14 minutes ago, Adawn47 said:

I was behind a woman who used the hand gel on entry, then blew her nose, stuffed the used tissue into her jeans and went on to serve herself from the salad bar.

No amount of onboard precautions is a cure for a passenger's bad hygene.

 

Yes there are precautions that would cure that.

 

The cure is to stop self-service and have staff serve the passengers at the buffet, and plenty of cruise ships including other Carnival Corp brands do that (complete with plexi shields to prevent passengers touching or sneezing on the food).

 

It is not rocket science.

[Adawn47]

2 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Yes there are precautions that would cure that.

 

The cure is to stop self-service and have staff serve the passengers at the buffet, and plenty of cruise ships including other Carnival Corp brands do that (complete with plexi shields to prevent passengers touching or sneezing on the food).

 

It is not rocket science.

More emphasis is put on food and beverage outlets as the cause of norovirus outbreaks  than anything else, when it can be spread by touching any surface in any area or venue  on board. It can also in some cases be airborne.

We have been on 14 cruises to date, 3 on ships with bad norovirus outbreaks, and never became ill.

There is no cure for people's lack of personal hygiene.

Avril

 

[9265359]

1 minute ago, Adawn47 said:

There is no cure for people's lack of personal hygiene.

 

As before, the cure to recognise that some people will not follow the hygiene rules so you don't only rely on those hygiene rules to be the protection.

 

You put in place procedures on top of those hygiene rules, such as removing self-service, moving to single use condiments, lots and lots of cleaning of tables, etc.

 

Focusing on those few individuals who are not using the hand gel rather than the $20 billion company who is not putting in place the mitigations necessary, is pointing the figure in the wrong direction.

[Adawn47]

2 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

As before, the cure to recognise that some people will not follow the hygiene rules so you don't only rely on those hygiene rules to be the protection.

 

You put in place procedures on top of those hygiene rules, such as removing self-service, moving to single use condiments, lots and lots of cleaning of tables, etc.

 

Focusing on those few individuals who are not using the hand gel rather than the $20 billion company who is not putting in place the mitigations necessary, is pointing the figure in the wrong direction.

They will still be moving around the ship touching other surfaces. This is sadly a 'catch 22' situation, which is why I keep coming back to personal hygiene.

Our little debate could go round and round in circles like the Oozlum bird😁 and I don't think either of us will change our mind on this. We will have to agree to disagree.

I've enjoyed our debate, thank you.

Avril

[nosapphire]

Maybe the "please wash your hands" should place more emphasis on the fact that by doing so you are protecting yourself.

At one restaurant (Saga) there was a queue for the handwashing sink (enforced by staff) and the person behind me said plaintively, "but I already washed my hands before leaving the cabin".

I asked him "and what did you touch on the way to dinner? Maybe somebody who had NOT washed their hands touched it before you."

[jeanlyon]

2 hours ago, david63 said:

And how many passengers do you see ignoring the gel stations when re-boarding the ship when having been ashore?

 

I do think though that one of the problems with hand washing/gel stations is when you are carrying something - especially coming back on in port - you have to have your cruise card available as a minimum. This is certainly an area that is improved with Princess and the medallion - in fact the medallion because there is no need for anyone to touch it is an area where there is some reduction in the spreading noro.

I see absolutely no point in using hand gel before getting back on the ship.  You then hold the handrail, you then put your bag through the scanner, pick it up, then get the lift.  What use would the hand gel be?  A better place for the gel would be after you have picked up your belongings.  Also, that gel is absolutely useless against noro - it's a virus!

Edited June 10 by jeanlyon