New York-Quebec-Quebec-Fort Lauderdale October 18-November 9

[Roland4]

13 hours ago, BEAV said:

Your non-US citizenship has nothing to do with it. The PVSA applies to anyone sailing these itineraries, not just US citizens if I understand you correct. And New York, on the second sailing, isn’t a port of disembarkation/embarkation.  No one would qualify under PVSA to board in NY to sail to Ft Lauderdale without calling on a distant foreign port. 

I know all of that, but I was looking for an explanation, beyond Res Agent error, for how this was allowed to "slip through the cracks". I would not be surprised if ours is not the only NYC/FLL booking!

 

I have e-mailed OBGS with this and will let you know what they come back with. I suspect we will have to drop one of the segments, in which case Jim Brochu wins out over Gloria Gayner!!! Adding FLL/Bridgetown does not work for us. 

[BEAV]

This thread is both a curse and a blessing…
 

Feeling bad that @Ibis’ NYC hotel questions have gotten hijacked! 
 

Kudos to @rafinmd for identifying the B2B legality question and speaking up.
 

Thankful it might save @Roland4, and possibly others, from headaches later on down the road. 

 

🙏 this thread doesn’t usher in a battle between two entertainers!  Hang tough @out 2 see! 🤣

 

 

[BWIVince]

1 hour ago, BEAV said:

This thread is both a curse and a blessing…
 

Feeling bad that @Ibis’ NYC hotel questions have gotten hijacked! 
 

Kudos to @rafinmd for identifying the B2B legality question and speaking up.
 

Thankful it might save @Roland4, and possibly others, from headaches later on down the road. 

 

🙏 this thread doesn’t usher in a battle between two entertainers!  Hang tough @out 2 see! 🤣

 

 

 

Somehow a friendly battle between Jim Brochu and Gloria Gaynor DOES seem like an appropriate Pride Month activity though!  😄 ❤️ 

 

Vince

[PaulaJK]

Ibis,

NYC has many wonderful hotels, in virtually all neighborhoods. Perhaps you could start by identifying your activity and dining interests as it can be quite costly to taxi up, down and-across town. Then think about whether you wish boutique or a large hotel and what amenities are important to you. Staying near the port is neither  interesting nor particularly handy. Paula

[Ibis]

Thanks so much for all these responses. Seems now our dilemma is not about hotel choice or seasonal weather but whether this is even a legal itinerary. Very eagerly awaiting the response from OBQS to Roland about this. 😣🤞 Thanks to all.

[Ibis]

This morning we contacted our travel agent who has now made two separate calls to Crystal to speak to two different agents asking if our itinerary violates the PVSA and/or Jones Act. In both cases he was told no… no violation for our back to back itinerary. Honestly, I am still very anxiously awaiting the response to Roland from OBGS. Hopefully he will share as soon as he has news🤗. 

[Roland4]

15 minutes ago, Ibis said:

This morning we contacted our travel agent who has now made two separate calls to Crystal to speak to two different agents asking if our itinerary violates the PVSA and/or Jones Act. In both cases he was told no… no violation for our back to back itinerary. Honestly, I am still very anxiously awaiting the response to Roland from OBGS. Hopefully he will share as soon as he has news🤗. 

No response yet, but the auto-response to my e-mail said "within 48 business hours". I would not count on the two "no" answers being correct, but we shall see.

[Ibis]

Quick update from our side… due to his continuing concern about the legal status of this back to back itinerary our travel agent recontacted Crystal (3rd time) only to be reassured once again by the phone agent it is not in violation. He then asked for a manager or supervisor to call him back, which should happen within 24 hours. Crystal has said they will then provide him with a letter stating the legality of our itinerary. Our TA was also successful in having Crystal agree to delaying our final payment until Monday so this may, hopefully, be resolved. I continue to be greatly impressed with the way our TA is pursuing this and also very grateful to Crystal as well, for delaying final payment. Having said that, we still eagerly await the news Roland4 has promised to share from OBGS. 

[BWIVince]

3 hours ago, Ibis said:

Quick update from our side… due to his continuing concern about the legal status of this back to back itinerary our travel agent recontacted Crystal (3rd time) only to be reassured once again by the phone agent it is not in violation. He then asked for a manager or supervisor to call him back, which should happen within 24 hours. Crystal has said they will then provide him with a letter stating the legality of our itinerary. Our TA was also successful in having Crystal agree to delaying our final payment until Monday so this may, hopefully, be resolved. I continue to be greatly impressed with the way our TA is pursuing this and also very grateful to Crystal as well, for delaying final payment. Having said that, we still eagerly await the news Roland4 has promised to share from OBGS. 

I’m glad you elevated that to a manager and requested it in writing.  I have serious doubts that a call center agent would be an appropriate resource to vouch for the PVSA validity of an itinerary, especially at a line that spends most of the year not sailing from US ports.

 

Vince

[Roland4]

13 hours ago, BWIVince said:

I’m glad you elevated that to a manager and requested it in writing.  I have serious doubts that a call center agent would be an appropriate resource to vouch for the PVSA validity of an itinerary, especially at a line that spends most of the year not sailing from US ports.

 

Vince

And here is the definitive answer from EmbarkDisembarkInfo, who I was directed to by OBGS, and who I have to assume would know;

 

I appreciate your question!

 

According to the Jones Act, the guests violate the Jones Act with these back-to-back voyages. The guests can debark in New York on November 1^st or November 2^nd or in Nassau on November 8^th.

 

Obviously it is not the "Jones Act" but the PVSA, but I think one books this B2B at their peril. 

 

Disembarking in Nassau would work for us, now I just have to figure out how we go about arranging that.

 

 

[BWIVince]

1 hour ago, Roland4 said:

And here is the definitive answer from EmbarkDisembarkInfo, who I was directed to by OBGS, and who I have to assume would know;

 

I appreciate your question!

 

According to the Jones Act, the guests violate the Jones Act with these back-to-back voyages. The guests can debark in New York on November 1^st or November 2^nd or in Nassau on November 8^th.

 

Obviously it is not the "Jones Act" but the PVSA, but I think one books this B2B at their peril. 

 

Disembarking in Nassau would work for us, now I just have to figure out how we go about arranging that.

 

 

I’m glad you got a definitive answer Larry, and it makes sense as we all expected.  I know people confuse the Jones Act and the PVSA all the time, but it is a little discouraging that EDI specifically doesn’t know the difference, but at least they understand the core violation. 😊 

 

I’m sorry the original plan didn’t work, but it could be a lot worse than the Nassau option.  At least Nassau has a good amount of air lift and competition.

 

Vince

[Ibis]

Thanks so much for sharing your answer from EDI. It is discouraging they referred to Jones Act instead of PVSA but we hope their answer is the correct one, albeit not the answer we had hoped to receive. 
 

Two points to which I hope those of you who are more well versed than I on this will respond ..

This first segment starts in NYC so why does disembarking in NYC November 1 or 2 cure the problem as EDI suggests? If you embark in NYC wouldn’t you need to disembark in Quebec City at the end of that segment?

 

Second point. The third phone agent our TA spoke with was rather emphatic there is no violation because we would be going through immigration in Quebec City. That made some sense to me, as going through immigration would mean you had entered a foreign country, Canada, before returning to United States. Wouldn’t that satisfy the PVSA? Comments, PLEASE 🙂

 

We are still going to wait until the end of the day Monday to make or not make final payment hoping our TA will hear back before then.

 

Also, just can’t help wondering why Paula Jean, with all her years of experience didn’t realize this was a violation when we booked on board two weeks ago. We spoke with her several times and ask her to price one segment and also the two segments B2B before we decided to book both segments. PVSA was never mentioned.

 

Thanks to everyone for their responses and my apologies for not answering those further questions about hotels, etc. that I posed at the beginning of this thread. I can’t think about hotels or what we might do in NYC until we know this issue is resolved. Flying back to Fort Lauderdale from Nassau doesn’t have much appeal to us.

[BWIVince]

45 minutes ago, Ibis said:

Thanks so much for sharing your answer from EDI. It is discouraging they referred to Jones Act instead of PVSA but we hope their answer is the correct one, albeit not the answer we had hoped to receive. 
 

Two points to which I hope those of you who are more well versed than I on this will respond ..

This first segment starts in NYC so why does disembarking in NYC November 1 or 2 cure the problem as EDI suggests? If you embark in NYC wouldn’t you need to disembark in Quebec City at the end of that segment?

 

Second point. The third phone agent our TA spoke with was rather emphatic there is no violation because we would be going through immigration in Quebec City. That made some sense to me, as going through immigration would mean you had entered a foreign country, Canada, before returning to United States. Wouldn’t that satisfy the PVSA? Comments, PLEASE 🙂

 

We are still going to wait until the end of the day Monday to make or not make final payment hoping our TA will hear back before then.

 

Also, just can’t help wondering why Paula Jean, with all her years of experience didn’t realize this was a violation when we booked on board two weeks ago. We spoke with her several times and ask her to price one segment and also the two segments B2B before we decided to book both segments. PVSA was never mentioned.

 

Thanks to everyone for their responses and my apologies for not answering those further questions about hotels, etc. that I posed at the beginning of this thread. I can’t think about hotels or what we might do in NYC until we know this issue is resolved. Flying back to Fort Lauderdale from Nassau doesn’t have much appeal to us.

The PVSA gives a couple of options for foreign-registered ships, but basically you can’t be transported between two different US ports without touching a foreign country on a different continent or an exception port like Aruba, Bonaire or Curaçao.  Visiting any foreign port would qualify you to return to the same port (like a round trip Miami or San Juan Caribbean cruise), but not a different US port for disembarkation.  Therefore if you board in New York, your options are to (a) disembark in New York again, (b) disembark in another country, or (c) stay on until you finally hit another port that qualifies you to disembark elsewhere in the US.

 

Cruise lines generally design their US itineraries to be individually compliant, and sometimes home port a ship so it’s easier to plug together itineraries, but for ships that continuously wander like Crystal’s, you always have to stay on top of this.  
 

I can’t speak to why Paula Jean didn’t catch this, but situational awareness probably plays a factor to anyone that sells combo cruise cruises for a living and only a fraction of them have odd rules that need to be considered.  It didn’t even occur to me to think about the PVSA until Roy said something, but how close to mind the PVSA probably speaks to how frequently and recently someone needed to consider it in booking travel.

 

Vince

Edited June 22 by BWIVince

[Keith1010]

The answer that Larry got is what I expected in terms of this is not a legal back-to-back. We tried booking a similar one years ago but could not book it due to the PVSA.

 

Problem here is that most people who are booked on this don't do CC. So what happens.  They board only to be told here are your options.

 

I have sent a note to Crystal about this. If New York and Nassau are the only options which to me is the case then an e-mail needs to go out to all guests booked on this back to back letting them know.  I think this is why when you look at the cruises that show as combined on the web site they show New York City to Bridgetown or even Quebec to Bridgetown as possible back to back cruises.  

 

Keith

[rafinmd]

I'm thinking there should be at least one more option, and that would be to FULLY disembark in Quebec on the first or second day, spend a night in a hotel, and then embarking again in Quebec the following day.

 

Roy

[Ibis]

Thanks to all. So it doesn’t matter that we are booked as two segments? And it doesn’t matter that we are going through immigration in Quebec? We really appreciate the time everyone is spending on this to try to help us. Maybe a night in a hotel in Quebec is the answer!?! Wonder if we could still have dinner on board? What a revolting development this is! Ha Ha.. but not so funny..

[Keith1010]

6 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

I'm thinking there should be at least one more option, and that would be to FULLY disembark in Quebec on the first or second day, spend a night in a hotel, and then embarking again in Quebec the following day.

 

Roy

Roy that's a good idea if it is allowed.  Since the cruise technically starts on the 26th not the 27th not sure if it would be allowed but certainly an interesting question.  And nothing lost by asking if that is possible.  

 

Keith

[Ibis]

I do understand from Vince’s very good explanation why NYC disembark works and not  Fort Lauderdale. Thank you very much for that detailed explanation. And thank you to Keith for being in touch with Crystal, as he is correct, they should be contacting those booked on this itinerary.  Roy, we will pursue your suggestion. Not sure I will be able to sell that idea here at home 🙂

[BWIVince]

4 hours ago, rafinmd said:

I'm thinking there should be at least one more option, and that would be to FULLY disembark in Quebec on the first or second day, spend a night in a hotel, and then embarking again in Quebec the following day.

 

Roy

 

I have to admit, I've always wondered about ways to break a segment, and this was specifically something I was curious about.  So I did a little digging...  According to the September 2019 version of CBP's summary, it looks like they have a specific exclusion example for getting off with your belongings and subsequently reboarding in the same port on a different ticket (regardless of date):

 

NOTE: Application of the PVSA is based on the geographic locations where passengers “embark” and “disembark”. The transporting vessel’s itinerary, whether the passenger is a revenue or non-revenue passenger, or how the passenger’s transportation is ticketed, is irrelevant.

EXAMPLE: The transportation of passengers aboard a non-coastwise-qualified vessel M/V MAURY on ticket/itinerary from San Francisco, California to Vancouver, Canada, where the passengers depart the vessel with their luggage in Vancouver. If the same passengers reboard the M/V MAURY in Vancouver using different tickets and disembark at any other coastwise port other than San Francisco, the M/V MAURY would be a violation of 46 U.S.C. § 55103.

 

So it looks like if you got off in Quebec, you might have a case if you were rebounding in a different foreign city, but you can't just get back on the next day in the same port with a different ticket.  😞 I think the use case they're trying to exclude is a company setting up transport between two different US ports by just adding a "layover" abroad somewhere...  Which seems like a weird idea, but I could see vacation packages working like that.

 

Source: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Sep/PVSA-ICP.pdf

 

Vince

Edited June 22 by BWIVince

[Texas Tillie]

So, what Vince posts is we have a part of the law that makes sense inside a law that makes absolutely no sense under current circumstances. This is the US government, why should we be surprised! 😮🙄😏

 

Patty

[BEAV]

Vince, I’ve reread your referenced link over and over, and my interpretation of the violation isn’t the part about reboarding the same ship in the same port, but rather the passenger disembarking somewhere OTHER than SF. ??? 🤔 (ie: the instant case boarding in NYC and disembarking in FLL)

 

This would corroborate a lot of examples I’ve read over the years where disembarking the turnaround port is legal by embarking your second cruise on a different calendar day (hence overnight stay). This is what gives me a shred of hope spending an overnight off ship in Quebec might make it legit. ??? 🤔

 

[BEAV]

P.S. I forgot to add, the “official” word we got back in 2002 was that the only way to sail SF-Vancouver-Seattle was an overnight “break” in Vancouver. But since our ship was on a same day turnaround, this wasn’t possible. 
 

 

 

Edited June 22 by BEAV

[rafinmd]

Since Crystal had a significant hand in this happen I sure hope they are offering some kind of compensation for the shortened voyages.

 

Roy

[loriva]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:00 AM, Ibis said:

Flying back to Fort Lauderdale from Nassau doesn’t have much appeal to us.

 

There is a fast ferry option between the Bahamas and Ft. Lauderdale if that would be more palatable.  Website:  https://www.baleariacaribbean.com/en.  This is what we were going to do when we booked our first cruise on Crystal ocean for 2022.

[rafinmd]

16 minutes ago, loriva said:

 

There is a fast ferry option between the Bahamas and Ft. Lauderdale if that would be more palatable.  Website:  https://www.baleariacaribbean.com/en.  This is what we were going to do when we booked our first cruise on Crystal ocean for 2022.

Unfortunately, I don't think the ferry ever goes to Nassau.  The ferry from either Freeport or Bimini would be an option but not Nassau.

 

Roy