Holland America Cruise Pricing

[TRLD]

55 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

They had stable occupancy because they were giving away cruises in order to fill them. I've been cruising since 1985 and the 2008-2010 time period had some of the cheapest sailings of the last 40 years. $299 for a 7 day cruise in a balcony was pretty standard practice.

 

What do you mean by 'cruise lines expanded'??? Are you talking new builds coming online? If so, we both know those were ordered years before the recession. The recession did bring cruise ship order books to a screaming halt.

 

Cruise line stock sure also took a beating and earnings were amiss.

 

 

 

Please define what you mean by "cruise lines expanded" from 2007-2008.

Expanded as in increased the number of passengers they were carrying. 

 

You might want to compare how the 3 holding companies did compared to the airlines or major hotel chains or for that matter even the S&P 500 during that time.

 

For example the Dow dropped 34% in 2008. So a stock drop in a recession is not unusual. The question is how much it drops vs other businesses

Edited August 10 by TRLD

[foodsvcmgr]

We rarely go above a standard balcony on a cruise but I will only fly first class domestically and Premium economy internationally these days.

Also only 4-5 star hotels, so land trips while interesting to mix in don’t really save us much.

Car rentals for a compact SUV are very high in recent years as well.

As others have said, the cost comparison will vary greatly by what each individual demands or will settle for.

[terrydtx]

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

Just to compare apples to apples are you staying in a suite in the hotel. How much are your meals per day? Drinks?  The difference narrows when those are included. If you were staying in a verandah cabin instead of a Vista Suite the cruise per day would probably be less.

 

One can always tilt it one way or the other based upon their choices.  The data that the cruise lines, and other businesses look at is across the complete competitive landscape.

 

Also as I mentioned in an earlier post pricing power will vary by line, itinerary, and by cabin type.

On the Volendam a Vista Suite is the only non Neptune verandah cabin. On land we book Executive or club level king rooms or Jr suites. The Executive level room gets access to Hilton or Marriott lounges with complimentary food snacks and drinks. On HAL Vista class ships we prefer at a minimum Signature Suites. Our 9 post covid Celebrity Cruises were all in their Retreat Sky Suites primarily for the suites amenities. 

 

Not wanting to sound like a snob but we worked hard and invested wisely all of our working lives so in retirement we could travel and live first class. That is how we travel, no flying coach or cruising in non balcony cabins. 

Edited August 10 by terrydtx

[BermudaBound2014]

4 hours ago, TRLD said:

Cruise lines actual grew during the recession.

You stated that “cruise lines expanded”

and “cruise lines actual grew during the recession”.

 

Please explain- because, like I said. if you mean cruise lines expanded because of new ships coming online, those were ordered years prior to the recession and rates were cut drastically to fill. 
 

Best I can tell, Cruise lines did not grow as a result of the recession. 

[TRLD]

42 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

You stated that “cruise lines expanded”

and “cruise lines actual grew during the recession”.

 

Please explain- because, like I said. if you mean cruise lines expanded because of new ships coming online, those were ordered years prior to the recession and rates were cut drastically to fill. 
 

Best I can tell, Cruise lines did not grow as a result of the recession. 

Just to be clear I did not say expanded because of the recession, only that they were resilient and expanded in spite of the recession

 

As I said above expanded as in number of passengers carried as well as carrying capacity.

 

Looking at it another way

revenue and operating income in millions

 

2006  4,375    744.7

2007 5,227     834.9

2008 6,550     1,246

2009 5,912     1,032

2010 6,473     1,087

 

Both 2008 and 2009 revenue and operating income was higher than the year before the recession which started in 2008.

 

The only hiccup was from 2008 to 2009 where there was 10% drop in revenue and 17% drop in operating income with both 2008 and 2009 showing growth over 2007.  

 

So to put it simply the number of passengers, the fleet capacity, the revenue, and operating income were all higher during the years of the financial crisis  compared to 2007.

 

There was a revenue impact during 2009 but only compared to 2008 and still higher than 2007.

 

CCL Cruise Passengers and Capacity

 

2005  6,848,000   136,960

2006 7,008,000   143,676

2007 7,672,000   158,252

2008  8,183,000   169,040

2009  8,519,000   180,746

 

So both passengers and capacity grew

 

Occupancy stayed pretty stable

 

2005   105.6

2006   106

2007   105.6

2008  105.7

2009   105.5

Edited August 11 by TRLD

[TRLD]

Just for comparison this is how Marriot did (was going to Hilton, but their ownership by Blackrock during this time make data hard to find)

 

revenue and operating income

 

2006   11995    1089

2007   12990    1183

2008   12879      765

2009    10908     (152)

2010   11691    695

 

In comparison Marriot revenue and operating income dropped in both 2008 and 2009 with operating income going negative in 2009.  Looks like Marriot a hotel chain was impacted more severely by the financial crisis that CCL a cruise line holding company.

[Lido deck main]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

On the Volendam a Vista Suite is the only non Neptune verandah cabin. On land we book Executive or club level king rooms or Jr suites. The Executive level room gets access to Hilton or Marriott lounges with complimentary food snacks and drinks. On HAL Vista class ships we prefer at a minimum Signature Suites. Our 9 post covid Celebrity Cruises were all in their Retreat Sky Suites primarily for the suites amenities. 

 

Not wanting to sound like a snob but we worked hard and invested wisely all of our working lives so in retirement we could travel and live first class. That is how we travel, no flying coach or cruising in non balcony cabins. 

Yes we worked hard as well and invested and saved our money, we are go, go, go. We are early sixties and I know it is not nice to think but we are in our last third of our lives, so why should we save now.  We have to spend it and travel while we can and enjoy it.  We are cruising at least 140 days per year.  

[TRLD]

Just now, Lido deck main said:

Yes we worked hard as well and invested and saved our money, we are go, go, go. We are early sixties and I know it is not nice to think but we are in our last third of our lives, so why should we save now.  We have to spend it and travel while we can and enjoy it.  We are cruising at least 140 days per year.  

We do between 100 and 120 per year on various lines, plus another 30 to 60 on international land trips. Usually combining them.

[Hobby3333]

We were on the Sun Princess last month in an S9 Sanctuary Suite.  I was shocked today when we booked a cruise on the Sun for a cruise in Europe for Oct 26.  The price has doubled.  We lower our cat to a Sanctuary Balcony and it seems to be a good value to get the Sanctuary benefits.  But what do I know?  Now we are very happy with the cruise we booked on the Rotterdam for July 25 with CO and the elite package.  Oh well, it’s only money.

 

[terrydtx]

1 hour ago, Lido deck main said:

Yes we worked hard as well and invested and saved our money, we are go, go, go. We are early sixties and I know it is not nice to think but we are in our last third of our lives, so why should we save now.  We have to spend it and travel while we can and enjoy it.  We are cruising at least 140 days per year.  

I agree and we retired in Mach 2020 then Covid cost us 2 years of our prime retirement travel time. We call our travels, SKI vacations, Spending Our Kids Inheritance.

[Hobby3333]

41 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I agree and we retired in Mach 2020 then Covid cost us 2 years of our prime retirement travel time. We call our travels, SKI vacations, Spending Our Kids Inheritance.

I like that. May I use it?

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

On 8/9/2024 at 7:28 PM, FlorenceItaly said:

I think this can be said for most cruise lines.  Supply and demand.

 

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

If you want cheap go to those companies. We personally would pay more for Holland American. There is a difference.

[Mary229]

29 minutes ago, Gail & Marty sailing away said:

If you want cheap go to those companies. We personally would pay more for Holland American. There is a difference.

I agree 
 

I buy the cheapest room I would be comfortable with not the cheapest cruise.  Being too cheap is a foolish decision 

[terrydtx]

8 hours ago, Hobby3333 said:

I like that. May I use it?

Sure, you won't be the first.  LOL

Edited August 11 by terrydtx

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

45 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I agree 
 

I buy the cheapest room I would be comfortable with not the cheapest cruise.  Being too cheap is a foolish decision 

Very well said.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

I agree 
 

I buy the cheapest room I would be comfortable with not the cheapest cruise.  Being too cheap is a foolish decision 

We will often buy the cheapest room (which is a suite) on the luxury cruise lines (Seabourn, Silversea, Explora Journeys).  We find those lines a lot better overall "value" than HAL.  On HAL, we seldom book a suite (we have done some Signature and Vista suites) and have routinely turned down some great upsell deals to a Neptune.  Since we spend such little waking time in our cabin/suite, we don't see Neptune's as worth the cost.  On the other hand, if on some other lines (MSC, Celebrity, etc) we do see the suites as a better value because of the perks associated with suites (such as the Retreat on Celebrity, Yacht Club on MSC, etc).  I do think that HAL has the worst suite amenity program of all the cruise lines upon which we cruise.  This is even more true on the Vista and smaller classes, which is generally what we seek out with HAL.

 

Hank

[terrydtx]

28 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We will often buy the cheapest room (which is a suite) on the luxury cruise lines (Seabourn, Silversea, Explora Journeys).  We find those lines a lot better overall "value" than HAL.  On HAL, we seldom book a suite (we have done some Signature and Vista suites) and have routinely turned down some great upsell deals to a Neptune.  Since we spend such little waking time in our cabin/suite, we don't see Neptune's as worth the cost.  On the other hand, if on some other lines (MSC, Celebrity, etc) we do see the suites as a better value because of the perks associated with suites (such as the Retreat on Celebrity, Yacht Club on MSC, etc).  I do think that HAL has the worst suite amenity program of all the cruise lines upon which we cruise.  This is even more true on the Vista and smaller classes, which is generally what we seek out with HAL.

 

Hank

Hank, I can agree with you on this. On Celebrity we have only booked the Retreat because of the added amenities, a butler, a private lounge, a private sun deck and a private restaurant. We spend more time in the amenity facilities than our cabin. We see no need to book a Neptune on HAL if we can book a lower cabin with Club Orange. On Pinnacle ships CO adds a private dining room, on the other classes we get priority MDR seating with an expanded menu. CO gets us priority boarding, an expanded room service menu, priority tendering, CO guest service line and a free category cabin upgrade. About the only Neptune amenity CO doesn't get us is the Neptune lounge which is nothing like the full service Retreat lounges on Celebrity. On the Koningsdam last year we had an aft facing verandah cabin with CO and we were just as satisfied as being in the Celebrity Retreat. We also felt that the service and food in the CO Dining room was as good if not better than the Retreat Luminae Suites dining room. We do have CO on our Volendam cruise this month, the cabin upgrade we got paid for the CO addon. Our Vista Suite with CO and the premium early booking HIA bonus on the Volendam is about 1/2 the cost per day of a Retreat sky suite on Celebrity. 

Edited August 11 by terrydtx

[BermudaBound2014]

2 hours ago, Gail & Marty sailing away said:

If you want cheap go to those companies. We personally would pay more for Holland American. There is a difference.

 

What's the difference? 

 

I don't look for the cheapest option, I book looking for the best value for my travel dollars depending what I want from that vacation. Sometimes I'm looking for wonderful entertainment (NCL and RCL) sometimes its just lots of fun activities (anything but HAL). Sometimes that's great long itineraries ( for sure HAL).

 

What other lines have you sailed with post covid and what is the better about HAL (for you)?? 

 

 

[Hlitner]

11 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

Hank, I can agree with you on this. On Celebrity we have only booked the Retreat because of the added amenities, a butler, a private lounge, a private sun deck and a private restaurant. We spend more time in the amenity facilities than our cabin. We see no need to book a Neptune on HAL if we can book a lower cabin with Club Orange. On Pinnacle ships CO adds a private dining room, on the other classes we get priority MDR seating with an expanded menu. CO gets us priority boarding, an expanded room service menu, priority tendering, CO guest service line and a free category cabin upgrade. About the only Neptune amenity CO doesn't get us is the Neptune lounge which is nothing like the full service Retreat lounges on Celebrity. On the Koningsdam last year we had an aft facing verandah cabin with CO and we were just as satisfied as being in the Celebrity Retreat. We also felt that the service and food in the CO Dining room was as good if not better than the Retreat Luminae Suites dining room. We do have CO on our Volendam cruise this month, the cabin upgrade we got paid for the CO addon. Our Vista Suite with CO and the premium early booking HIA on the Volendam is about 1/2 the cost per night of a Retreat sky suite on Celebrity. 

Just a few words about my "take" on Club Orange  If we were to cruise on a Pinnacle Class ship, we would likely book a lower category veranda and the Club Orange option.  On Vista and smaller, we see little benefit to CO.  As 5* Mariners, we already get our share of "priority" and the other normal perks.  Dining on HAL is never a problem for us, because we simply practice what I call "queue avoidance."  We normally go the MDR after 7:30, which is a time when there is no queue on HAL (many are already in bed), and DW has no use for priority breakfast (she is not a breakfast person).  

 

Celebrity has become a "no go" for us due to very high pricing on Retreat suites.  If, and when, we spot a decent deal, we would return to Celebrity.  For now, we still find a lot of value with Seabourn, Oceania (their new ships), and Silversea.  In fact, we have an upcoming Silversea cruise (14 days) that cost us less than $350 per passenger day.  On Silversea, for that price, we get a suite, included excursions at every port, and free everything onboard.  The only thing close, on HAL, would be a suite with HIA and an upgrade to the higher drink package.  Our upcoming Seabourn cruise cost us about $400 per person day, which is also all-inclusive (no excursions).  On Seabourn, I tend to eat caviar every day (you can get it from Room Service, at bars, lounges, etc, for no charge) with French Champagne.  On HAL, assuming one could get caviar, that alone would cost at least $100 a day.  A fellow Seabourn cruiser insists that she eats enough caviar to cover the cost of her cruise :).  And for those who have not cruised on a luxury line, it is normal to spend a month on a ship and have an onboard account balance of zero!  No nickel and diming on those lines, no photographers, no art auctions, etc.

 

There is still "value" to be found with some cruises and cruise lines, but those deals are certainly more difficult to find then in years past.  For us, part of the fun of travel/cruising is looking for those "sweet spots."   What brought me into this thread was looking at the price of HAL's Voyage of the Vikings cruise (for the future) and realizing that it was an awful value.  I pointed out to DW that we could fly Business Class to Paris, and spend more than a month in France , for less money than the VOV.  And, trust me, that in France we would be eating/drinking a lot better than on HAL :).

 

Hank

[terrydtx]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Just a few words about my "take" on Club Orange  If we were to cruise on a Pinnacle Class ship, we would likely book a lower category veranda and the Club Orange option.  On Vista and smaller, we see little benefit to CO.  As 5* Mariners, we already get our share of "priority" and the other normal perks.  Dining on HAL is never a problem for us, because we simply practice what I call "queue avoidance."  We normally go the MDR after 7:30, which is a time when there is no queue on HAL (many are already in bed), and DW has no use for priority breakfast (she is not a breakfast person).  

 

Celebrity has become a "no go" for us due to very high pricing on Retreat suites.  If, and when, we spot a decent deal, we would return to Celebrity.  For now, we still find a lot of value with Seabourn, Oceania (their new ships), and Silversea.  In fact, we have an upcoming Silversea cruise (14 days) that cost us less than $350 per passenger day.  On Silversea, for that price, we get a suite, included excursions at every port, and free everything onboard.  The only thing close, on HAL, would be a suite with HIA and an upgrade to the higher drink package.  Our upcoming Seabourn cruise cost us about $400 per person day, which is also all-inclusive (no excursions).  On Seabourn, I tend to eat caviar every day (you can get it from Room Service, at bars, lounges, etc, for no charge) with French Champagne.  On HAL, assuming one could get caviar, that alone would cost at least $100 a day.  A fellow Seabourn cruiser insists that she eats enough caviar to cover the cost of her cruise :).  And for those who have not cruised on a luxury line, it is normal to spend a month on a ship and have an onboard account balance of zero!  No nickel and diming on those lines, no photographers, no art auctions, etc.

 

There is still "value" to be found with some cruises and cruise lines, but those deals are certainly more difficult to find then in years past.  For us, part of the fun of travel/cruising is looking for those "sweet spots."   What brought me into this thread was looking at the price of HAL's Voyage of the Vikings cruise (for the future) and realizing that it was an awful value.  I pointed out to DW that we could fly Business Class to Paris, and spend more than a month in France , for less money than the VOV.  And, trust me, that in France we would be eating/drinking a lot better than on HAL :).

 

Hank

We booked CO on the Volendam because it basically cost us nothing for CO. We wanted to book a VS midships (A category), we booked a B category then upgraded to the A cabin we wanted. The difference between the B an A in cost was $10 less than the cost of the CO addon. When we booked this cruise, we considered HAL, Celebrity, Oceania and Viking Ocean. Of the three the Volendam had the best Itinerary at half the cost of the other two.

 

Last year after we got off the Celebrity Apex in Athens, we flew to Santorini for 5 days in a suite only hotel with a butler that brought us breakfast every morning and wine with appetizers in the afternoons. Our 1000 sq ft suite had a private hot tub on our balcony, and we had a beautiful view of the Caldera and all the cruise ships visiting every day. The meals we enjoyed there were way better than any in the Apex Luminae. The Hotel, food and drinks cost us per day about half of what the Sky Suite cost per day.

[ottahand7]

18 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

We booked CO on the Volendam because it basically cost us nothing for CO. We wanted to book a VS midships (A category), we booked a B category then upgraded to the A cabin we wanted. The difference between the B an A in cost was $10 less than the cost of the CO addon. When we booked this cruise, we considered HAL, Celebrity, Oceania and Viking Ocean. Of the three the Volendam had the best Itinerary at half the cost of the other two.

 

Last year after we got off the Celebrity Apex in Athens, we flew to Santorini for 5 days in a suite only hotel with a butler that brought us breakfast every morning and wine with appetizers in the afternoons. Our 1000 sq ft suite had a private hot tub on our balcony, and we had a beautiful view of the Caldera and all the cruise ships visiting every day. The meals we enjoyed there were way better than any in the Apex Luminae. The Hotel, food and drinks cost us per day about half of what the Sky Suite cost per day.

You also have the benefit of priority tendering that jumps ahead of 5*, tendering with those in NS. We tried to get it on the Konigsdam for the 35 day Hawaii South Pacific and it was sold out almost immediately. 

[BermudaBound2014]

@tldr   IMO it is disingenuous to state that cruise lines "expanded" and "cruise lines actually grew" during the recession without mentioning that the recession lead to a significant decline in net income for many years. 

 

I can't cross reference your data because you continue to omit references. But to keep it simple: according to CCL's annual 2009 report they did lose net income (in spite of dilution). 

 

https://carnivalcorporationplc.gcs-web.com/static-files/3e5569f6-984d-43bf-ba6d-33f2d69b2f01

 

 

 

And CCL's 2013 annual report, the trend continued. 

https://www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReportArchive/c/NYSE_CCL_2013.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11 by BermudaBound2014

[terrydtx]

33 minutes ago, ottahand7 said:

You also have the benefit of priority tendering that jumps ahead of 5*, tendering with those in NS. We tried to get it on the Konigsdam for the 35 day Hawaii South Pacific and it was sold out almost immediately. 

I didn't mention the tendering because we have no tendered ports on our Volendam cruise this month, but it is good to have it when needed. On our cruises this year in Aus/NZ with Celebrity we had the priority tendering with the Retreat, and it helped going to the head of the lines for the tendered ports when we had private shore tours.

 

Last year we CO on the Koningsdam and the only tendered port was Santa Barbara, and we had a private tour that required an early departure. It worked out nice for us.

Edited August 11 by terrydtx

[BermudaBound2014]

On 8/9/2024 at 5:06 PM, TRLD said:

Prior to covid cruising was considered to be about a 15% discount to an equivalent land vacation. Since covid that grew as high as 45%. The cruiselines have been working to get their price structure back to the old 15% level, but it still is sitting at 20-25%, but hotel prices are starting to soften so the old 15% range might happen without any more cruise price increases.

 

References needed. Where are you digging up these percentages from? 45%? 15%? 

 

Most importantly, where are you seeing that cruise prices are STILL 20-25% less than hotel prices?? 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, TRLD said:

Of course most cruise passengers are not spending $500 per person per day. More like 175 to 250 per person per day. For many as low as $125. Basically a cruise can be had for 2 at about the same as the per day cost of a holiday inn express.

 

You are saying that cruising is 'about the same' as a holiday inn express? Given that we split our travels equally between land and cruising, that claim sounds wildly inaccurate in todays market.