EES and P&O cruisers

[purplesea]

2 hours ago, 9265359 said:

EES is also designed to work with family members of EU citizens and ensure that they time they spend in the Schengen Area with their EU family member does not count towards the 90 day limit (it does if they are there on their own).

 

2 hours ago, 9265359 said:

Once in operation then non-EU citizens will need to apply before they travel to the Schengen Area and it has a cost of 7 euros unless you are under 18, over 70, or a family member of an EU citizen.

Two facts that I didn't know.

My OH is an EU citizen with an EU passport but I hold a British passport. I wonder how is it going to work going through passport control?

[9265359]

24 minutes ago, purplesea said:

Two facts that I didn't know.

My OH is an EU citizen with an EU passport but I hold a British passport. I wonder how is it going to work going through passport control?

 

And two very useful facts!

 

As someone with dual UK and EU citizenship my wife simply accompanies me in the EU passport queue when I travel with my EU passport because thats what the EU law says she can do

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32016R0399 relevant extracts with my bolding - 

 

(16) In order to reduce the waiting times of persons enjoying the Union right of free movement, separate lanes, indicated by uniform signs in all Member States, should, where circumstances allow, be provided at border crossing points. Separate lanes should be provided in international airports. Where it is deemed appropriate and if local circumstances so allow, Member States should consider installing separate lanes at sea and land border crossing points.

 

and in the Art 2 Definitions

 

5. ‘persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law’ means:

(a) Union citizens within the meaning of Article 20(1) TFEU, and third-country nationals who are members of the family of a Union citizen exercising his or her right to free movement to whom Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council (21) applies;

 

[Tsunami74]

7 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Happy to help, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the subject - not just here but in the media generally.

 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

EES biometric data can only be captured by an EU border guard

What about flying from USA to UK through Iceland. Neither our start or destination is schengen, but our transit airport is in Reykavik.

Do you think we would need to obtain the EES to just fly through the airport? That would probably make us miss our flight to UK.

[Tsunami74]

7 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Happy to help, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the subject - not just here but in the media generally.

 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

EES biometric data can only be captured by an EU border guard

What about flying from USA to UK through Iceland. Neither our start or destination is schengen, but our transit airport is in Reykavik.

Do you think we would need to obtain the EES to just fly through the airport? That would probably make us miss our flight to UK.

[Snow Hill]

4 hours ago, Tsunami74 said:

What about flying from USA to UK through Iceland. Neither our start or destination is schengen, but our transit airport is in Reykavik.

Do you think we would need to obtain the EES to just fly through the airport? That would probably make us miss our flight to UK.

It would appear not, this from IcelandAir website, EES process would only apply if you entered Iceland.

 

I would confirm that with your airline to be sure if you are travelling on or after 10 November 2024

 

“If you are traveling from the US to a destination in the United Kingdom or Ireland (or vice versa), you will arrive at D gate. Your connecting flight will also depart from gate D. 

Since you are not entering the Schengen Area, you will stay within zone D, and will therefore not be subject to passport control in Iceland.”

 

https://www.icelandair.com/en-gb/support/pre-flight/connecting-at-keflavik/

 

 

 

 

[kalos]

14 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

To start with you are confusing EES and ETIAS, which are two different systems.

 

Firstly EES (Entry Exit System), this has an announced start date of the 10th November 2024 and there is no charge for it.

 

With EES, if you are a non-EU citizen then on your first entry to the Schengen Area your fingerprints and a photo will be taken by the border guards at the Schengen Area airport or at Dover (etc.) or St Pancras.

 

 

Confused - I am not surprised!

 

Thanks for the very detailed explanation,yes I was getting confused with various things

the press and others had written but I think it's clearer now -Thanks .

The way I see it now is ,the ETIAS is a visa waiver system ,that does exactly what it

says on the tin .

The EES (entry exit system )  is just a tracker that is put onto my bio metric passport

that holds info ,finger prints etc, once taken for the first time at an air/port . After 

that for the next few years I can go anywhere within Europe and just show my 

passport at border control , no need for stamps/visa's just like when we were in the EU.

The possible problem is getting it all set up onto folks passports 10 Nov onwards ? 

 

Thanks for your help in this matter .

[9265359]

6 hours ago, Tsunami74 said:

Do you think we would need to obtain the EES to just fly through the airport?

 

To be pedantic you don't obtain EES, but your entry onto the EES is simply done to you when you present yourself to the border guard in the passport queue when you arrive into the Schengen Area for the first time, with the border guard taking your fingerprints and photo.

 

I make this distinction because the other system that is due to come in next year is ETIAS where you do have to obtain it in advance of presenting yourself to the border guard in the passport queue.

 

1 hour ago, Snow Hill said:

It would appear not, this from IcelandAir website, EES process would only apply if you entered Iceland.

 

Is undoubtably the correct answer - if you don't go through passport control into Iceland and stay in the transit area then you don't get put onto EES because it is the border guard at passport control who has to do that.

 

However if your flights are that tight then I hope they are booked as a connecting flight and it is the airline's responsibility if you don't make it, but even so I hope you are arriving in the UK the day before your cruise because even if the airline puts you on the next day's flight...

 

 

[9265359]

Just now, kalos said:

I was getting confused with various things the press and others had written but I think it's clearer now

 

Yes, the press especially do seem to be wanting to be 'chicken little' about this, but then they do whenever it snows or the wind blows or...

 

2 minutes ago, kalos said:

The way I see it now is ,the ETIAS is a visa waiver system ,that does exactly what it

says on the tin .

 

Pretty much - and that you will need one if you are on a cruise with a stop in the Schengen Area when it eventually comes in but you will have loads of notice to apply.

 

4 minutes ago, kalos said:

The EES (entry exit system )  is just a tracker that is put onto my bio metric passport

that holds info ,finger prints etc, once taken for the first time at an air/port . After 

that for the next few years I can go anywhere within Europe and just show my 

passport at border control , no need for stamps/visa's just like when we were in the EU.

 

Yep, and it should be quicker for most people as there will be no stamps and the border guard flicking through the passport to look at those stamps, and when exiting to put the stamp on the same page as the entry.

 

It also opens the theoretical possibility that non-EU travellers will be allowed to use the automatic gates again when there is no need to 'wet stamp'.

 

However the issue for some is that if you were playing 'fast and loose' with the 90/180 rule because you knew the border guard likely didn't have the time to look at all the stamps in the passport then they will be caught out by the new system.

 

8 minutes ago, kalos said:

The possible problem is getting it all set up onto folks passports 10 Nov onwards ? 

 

Yes, but other than at Dover and St Pancras the queues will at the Schengen Area airport and I doubt those airports want to disrupt flights because the airport is too full of queuing passengers - and then once done it is done for years.

 

However undoubtably the press will have a field day with 'look at all these awful queues' in November. 

[majortom10]

7 hours ago, Tsunami74 said:

What about flying from USA to UK through Iceland. Neither our start or destination is schengen, but our transit airport is in Reykavik.

Do you think we would need to obtain the EES to just fly through the airport? That would probably make us miss our flight to UK.

US makes UK cruiser's purchase an ESTA on roundtrip TAs even if they don't want to leave the ship. Even then they have the stupid rule where you cannot stay on the ship you have to disembark go through security and then sit in a room to wait for permission to embark the ship. For this pleasure the US charge you $21pp for an ESTA. Never understood the stupid rule of being forced to disembark when you have no intention of leaving the ship.

[david63]

10 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Never understood the stupid rule of being forced to disembark when you have no intention of leaving the ship.

I think that the point of that is so that the ship is fully cleared of all passengers, and non essential crew, to try and reduce the influx of illegal immigrants into the US - typical American thinking. Sledgehammers and walnuts comes to mind.

[FangedRose]

19 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

US makes UK cruiser's purchase an ESTA on roundtrip TAs even if they don't want to leave the ship. Even then they have the stupid rule where you cannot stay on the ship you have to disembark go through security and then sit in a room to wait for permission to embark the ship. For this pleasure the US charge you $21pp for an ESTA. Never understood the stupid rule of being forced to disembark when you have no intention of leaving the ship.

Didn't have to leave the ship last time I cruised to USA. It was done on the ship.

[kermchem]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

Yes, but other than at Dover and St Pancras the queues will at the Schengen Area airport and I doubt those airports want to disrupt flights because the airport is too full of queuing passengers - and then once done it is done for years.

 

However undoubtably the press will have a field day with 'look at all these awful queues' in November. 

 

First a thank you for a very clear explanation, which agrees with my understanding of what is going to happen, but you have added some real dates. The catch is that your explanation is far longer than a newspaper headline.

I do hope the EU has learned some lessons. In about March 2017, there was some change to how the Schengen area operates, which meant that EU airports needed to segregate arrivals from inside and outside Schengen. We took a P&O cruise on Oceana from Malta at Easter 2017. Imagine, 6 or 8 planes from UK airports arriving within a couple of hours, all being processed through the small non-Schengen part of arrivals. It took us over an hour to get from the plane steps to the doors into the terminal, and two more to get to a border guard.

There will not be disruption to EU airport departures because there is a huge queue to be processed in arrivals. There might be disruption at Dover ferry terminal. Only one of these will make good headlines.

My take home message - OH needs to get round to applying for the passport that goes with their dual EU nationality.

[nosapphire]

31 minutes ago, kermchem said:

I do hope the EU has learned some lessons. In about March 2017, there was some change to how the Schengen area operates, which meant that EU airports needed to segregate arrivals from inside and outside Schengen

I am not sure if all the problems/delays/potential problems can be blamed on being in/out of the EU/Schengen zone.

In 2015 we flew from UK to Malaga (UK passport), 3 planes arrived at the same time and it ultimately took 3 hours from joining the queue to reach passport control - which were using the automated booths, hence the massive delay (some people fainted in the queue). (At that time I really wished we could go through the "alien" line, as they were whizzing through the non-automatic booths).
In 2010 we did a river cruise from Cologne, via ferry from/to Dover-Calais, and we missed two ferries on the way out because of - yep - French passport control, and then 3 ferries missed on the way back because UK control had all gone to lunch together.

I am not really expecting massive extra problems once the system is up and running.

[majortom10]

3 hours ago, FangedRose said:

Didn't have to leave the ship last time I cruised to USA. It was done on the ship.

Was that a roundtrip TA on QM2. We have done this cruise numerous times and every time if you weren't disembarking to go into New York you had to disembark go through security and then wait to be allowed back on ship. Was it a roundtrip or were you going somewhere else when leaving NY and not returning to Southampton. Or was it a temporary measure done during COVID.

[FangedRose]

10 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Was that a roundtrip TA on QM2. We have done this cruise numerous times and every time if you weren't disembarking to go into New York you had to disembark go through security and then wait to be allowed back on ship. Was it a roundtrip or were you going somewhere else when leaving NY and not returning to Southampton. Or was it a temporary measure done during COVID.

It was a transatlantic trip to Canada, USA, back up to Canada then transatlantic back. It was with P&O pre covid. I think the checks were done at Boston (but not entirely sure), but I am sure it was done on board as they went faster than planned and I had to leave halfway through dinner to attend.

[david63]

28 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

I think the checks were done at Boston

I seem to recall that when Boston was the first port of call in the US that immigration was done on board but since Boston no longer features, on many if any cruises, and the first port of call is NY then it is everybody off.

[AlexMcSpot]

1 hour ago, david63 said:

I seem to recall that when Boston was the first port of call in the US that immigration was done on board but since Boston no longer features, on many if any cruises, and the first port of call is NY then it is everybody off.

That is lucky for us then, we are on J612, Canada & USA 2026 and our first USA port of call - Boston. 👍

Edited August 27 by AlexMcSpot

[majortom10]

3 hours ago, FangedRose said:

It was a transatlantic trip to Canada, USA, back up to Canada then transatlantic back. It was with P&O pre covid. I think the checks were done at Boston (but not entirely sure), but I am sure it was done on board as they went faster than planned and I had to leave halfway through dinner to attend.

That is why it was done the way you stated. I was referring to just roundtrip TAs Sou-NY-Sou which if you are doing full roundtrip you are forced to leave QM2 and go through security and then return back on the ship. You are not allowed to stay onboard and you have to purchase an ESTA at $21pp even if you are only stepping onto US land for a short perion in cruise terminal. IMO totally daft situation and policy.

[FangedRose]

27 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

That is why it was done the way you stated. I was referring to just roundtrip TAs Sou-NY-Sou which if you are doing full roundtrip you are forced to leave QM2 and go through security and then return back on the ship. You are not allowed to stay onboard and you have to purchase an ESTA at $21pp even if you are only stepping onto US land for a short perion in cruise terminal. IMO totally daft situation and policy.

Trouble is you may not intend to step foot on USA soil but stuff happens and, in an emergency you may be forced to. Then you will be stuck without proper documentation in a foreign country, perhaps in pain and/or seriously ill. Same argument as when people argue about passport validity in Europe. You may not end up where you think you are going.

[majortom10]

1 hour ago, FangedRose said:

Trouble is you may not intend to step foot on USA soil but stuff happens and, in an emergency you may be forced to. Then you will be stuck without proper documentation in a foreign country, perhaps in pain and/or seriously ill. Same argument as when people argue about passport validity in Europe. You may not end up where you think you are going.

Yes I can see that and can understand why they insist on an ESTA. But cannot understand why they make you get off the ship for no apparent reason.

 

[Lois2409]

On 8/26/2024 at 6:06 PM, 9265359 said:

 

To start with you are confusing EES and ETIAS, which are two different systems.

 

Firstly EES (Entry Exit System), this has an announced start date of the 10th November 2024 and there is no charge for it.

 

With EES, if you are a non-EU citizen then on your first entry to the Schengen Area your fingerprints and a photo will be taken by the border guards at the Schengen Area airport or at Dover (etc.) or St Pancras.

 

The purpose of EES is to monitor the time spent in the Schengen Area and to ensure that the 90/180 day rule is correctly enforced, plus removing the need to 'wet stamp' passports.

 

Unlike now, the border guard won't need to try to look at all the stamps in the passport to try to calculate how long someone has spent in the Schengen Area, the system will simply tell them when they put the passport in the scanner.

 

Individuals will have access to a website so they can see how long they have spent in the Schengen Area and how long they have left in the current rolling 180 day period so they don't inadvertently break the rules.

 

EES is also designed to work with family members of EU citizens and ensure that they time they spend in the Schengen Area with their EU family member does not count towards the 90 day limit (it does if they are there on their own).

 

Turning to the impact of EES for cruise passengers (not ETIAS which is covered below)

 

For round trip cruises starting and ending at non-Schengen ports, e.g. a cruise starting and ending at Southampton, then EES will not be required at port stops in Schengen countries - exactly the same as you don't have to go through passport control now - cruises are a low risk for the Schengen Area because you are scanned on and off the ship and the ship has to report if you have not got back onboard.

 

For cruises starting at a non-Schengen port and ending at a Schengen port, e.g. a repositioning cruise from Southampton to Barcelona, then EES will be required at Barcelona, because you have simply used a cruise ship as a method of transport from A to B.

 

For cruises starting at a Schengen port then EES will be required but that will be at the airport you fly into (or whatever other means you take to get to that Schengen country.

 

Thus for any P&O passengers doing Southampton to Southampton cruises then they will not be troubled by EES.

 

Now for ETIAS (European Travel Information and Authorisation System) which does not have an announced start date.

 

ETIAS is a 'travel authorisation' and although it isn't a visa or a visa waiver it has pretty much the same effect - you don't have one then you are not getting in!

 

The purpose of ETIAS is so the Schengen Area countries have some control on the type of people entering with a passport as the ETIAS application contains details on your background, employment, criminal convictions etc. 

 

Once in operation then non-EU citizens will need to apply before they travel to the Schengen Area and it has a cost of 7 euros unless you are under 18, over 70, or a family member of an EU citizen.

 

There is no announced start date for ETIAS but the indications are - 

 

- You will be able to apply from May 2025 for an ETIAS but importantly there will be no requirement to have one for another six months, likely to be up to November 2025.

 

- From November 2025 you will be required to have an ETIAS but you will be allowed into the Schengen Area once and once only provided everything else is OK, and this state will last for six months up to May 2026.

 

- From May 2026 you will be required to have an ETIAS and there will be no allowance if you don't.

 

But as before, all those dates are not certain yet and may yet move.

 

Turning to the impact of ETIAS for cruise passengers (not EES which is covered above)

 

For round trip cruises starting and ending at non-Schengen ports, e.g. a cruise starting and ending at Southampton, then an ETIAS will be required if the ship has port stops in Schengen countries.

 

For cruises starting at a non-Schengen port and ending at a Schengen port, e.g. a repositioning cruise from Southampton to Barcelona, then an ETIAS will be required.

 

For cruises starting at a Schengen port then an ETIAS will be required but that will be at the airport you fly into (or whatever other means you take to get to that Schengen country.

 

Thus for any P&O passengers doing Southampton to Southampton cruises then they will need an ETIAS if there are any Schengen Area port stops.

 

In summary, EES will make no difference to almost anyone using P&O, because either it will not apply (Southampton to Southampton) or it will be dealt with at the airport on a fly cruise into Malta or Tenerife.

 

However ETIAS will make a difference and look out for 'sad faced posts' from people denied boarding at Southampton or denied boarding an aircraft for a fly-cruise, when the firm requirement kicks in.

 

And lastly, for those who are fortunate enough to be EU citizens (or dual UK and EU) then neither EES or ETIAS will trouble you if you travel on your EU passport - and importantly, it doesn't matter if you are an Irish citizen as Ireland is a non-Schengen country due to the 'common travel area' with the UK, the same is true and EES and ETIAS is irrelevant.

 

Plus your non-EU spouse (and children under age 21), although they will need to do EES and do ETIAS (unless they have residency in a Schengen Area country) can go with you through the EU passport controls and as mentioned above are not limited to the 90 days if you are somewhere in the Schengen Area (it doesn't need to be the same country) at the same time.

 

Confused - I am not surprised!

 

Thank you for your advice and guidance. In relation to the EES, please can you advise if I fly into Barcelona to embark a cruise ship, my passport will be electronically read as entering the EU and Day 1 will begin of my 90 days out of the rolling 180. If I debark in a UK port or non-EU country not part of the Schengen zone, how do the EU know I have left the EU?  I understand if I fly back from an EU country, my exit from the EU will be recorded at the airport when I leave but if I debark in Southampton or another UK port or fly back from Turkey for example that is not part of the EU, how do they know I have exited the EU? Thank you

[david63]

2 hours ago, majortom10 said:

But cannot understand why they make you get off the ship for no apparent reason.

Because they can. Their country, their rules.

[FangedRose]

2 hours ago, majortom10 said:

Yes I can see that and can understand why they insist on an ESTA. But cannot understand why they make you get off the ship for no apparent reason.

 

No idea. Particularly as they don't in Boston. Unless it's a State Law rather than a USA law.

[d9704011]

5 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

No idea. Particularly as they don't in Boston. Unless it's a State Law rather than a USA law.

It's not a state law.  If your 'final destination' were Boston, you'd be getting off the ship there too.  Have you experienced something different or was Boston a port of call enroute to NYC (for example)?

[FangedRose]

47 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

It's not a state law.  If your 'final destination' were Boston, you'd be getting off the ship there too.  Have you experienced something different or was Boston a port of call enroute to NYC (for example)?

Yes, as I said above it was enroute to New York.