Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[Sdfgh]

3 minutes ago, JeffElizabeth said:

We could care less about the shows but do like learning about our destinations. We are probably in the minority on this since the shows are packed. I am concerned that HAL doesn't get any new ships, but if they are going to be 4,000 passengers,  I won't be joining them. 

The shows are packed because there is barely anything else to do, it is FOMO that bring people in. I am not suggesting that HAL leave their mid size ship niche, it is something that we are attracted to. 

[BermudaBound2014]

17 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

This pie chart shows me how Carnival is their biggest growing brand, and except for Carnival everything has pretty much stayed the same. Costa, Princess, and Seabourn all have new ships in the works.

If you read the entire transcript from the conference call you’ll get much more information than the pie chart shows but I’m choosing not to go down the financial rabbit hole again :). 
 

There are really long threads with detailed analysis and speculation on the future of HAL new build orders if you are interested. 

 

 

[AKJonesy]

3 hours ago, Sdfgh said:

There are many loyal HAL customers who don’t want to hear anything negative about their home away from home. The fact is that HAL, like most cruise lines have been cutting back.

I agree with this and one of those loyal HAL customers is my husband.  If there were a cruise to nowhere, he would support it.  What does he do on cruises?  He eats, takes naps, watches movies, exercises, goes to tea and that's about it.  So, I've had to find a way to fit into his downtime.  I've been on a few cruises and couldn't wait to get off.  Then, I figured out how to make it work for me.  I reach out to other cruisers and go on private excursions; sometimes with him and sometimes without him.  I use the time to study and read which I don't allow myself to do very often while at home.  I've made it work for me, but I'm not going to be one of HAL biggest cheerleaders, and I'm ok with that.  

[Sdfgh]

7 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

If you read the entire transcript from the conference call you’ll get much more information than the pie chart shows but I’m choosing not to go down the financial rabbit hole again :). 
 

There are really long threads with detailed analysis and speculation on the future of HAL new build orders if you are interested. 

 

 

I most certainly would agree with you that it has to raise some suspicion regarding the future of HAL why there are no new build orders for the next decade( based upon an article I read ). Unfortunately, perhaps, HALs best days are behind them. 

[Sdfgh]

5 minutes ago, AKJonesy said:

I agree with this and one of those loyal HAL customers is my husband.  If there were a cruise to nowhere, he would support it.  What does he do on cruises?  He eats, takes naps, watches movies, exercises, goes to tea and that's about it.  So, I've had to find a way to fit into his downtime.  I've been on a few cruises and couldn't wait to get off.  Then, I figured out how to make it work for me.  I reach out to other cruisers and go on private excursions; sometimes with him and sometimes without him.  I use the time to study and read which I don't allow myself to do very often while at home.  I've made it work for me, but I'm not going to be one of HAL biggest cheerleaders, and I'm ok with that.  

May I respectfully suggest that you purchase the unlimited ( 15 per day ) drink package. lol

2 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

I most certainly would agree with you that it has to raise some suspicion regarding the future of HAL why there are no new build orders for the next decade( based upon an article I read ). Unfortunately, perhaps, HALs best days are behind them. 

 

[dognog]

Say it ain't so! ☹️

[atexsix]

HAL being Alaska specialists works the best for me because it's in my backyard allowing for no-fly cruises, I don't know how much cruise lines realize how important that aspect is alone.  And now, given ongoing health issues, warm weather cruises anywhere are out for me, so Alaska and HAL are it.  

 

As to attracting families, my personal opinion is that it'll turn out to be a bust.  Just ask Las Vegas. Or Nascar. Or anybody else that tried this business plan and failed miserably, it might capture a small segment of the market in the short term, but eventually they'll move on for the next trend and HAL will be left with their core customer base holding their hands up as if to indicate "now what?" 

 

Food-HAL is the best

 

Smaller ships-not as small as I'd like but beats those hideous leviathans most lines have.

 

Entertainment-low key ambiance is what HAL does best and a lot of us LOVE it, if the families mentioned above are expecting "Aqua Theater" or "Ice Under the Big Top" they need to look elsewhere. 

 

My two cents.

 

 

[bluesplayer]

The embarkation lunch in MDR take away was sooo sad.  The take aways are adding up.  Wish it was not the case.  I would be ok if the price went up a bit to keep the extras.

[mwj]

Frankly, for me, HAL has made many small decisions that are driving us away.

 

1)      Elimination of Lincoln Center

2)      Elimination of BBKing

3)      Poor World Stage entertainment

4)      Bumping twosomes out of a room that will hold more

5)      Failure to invest in new ships.

6)      Persistent poor-quality website and app

7)      Persistent Inconsistency between app and daily planner

😎 Poor quality customer service since outsourcing

9)      Persistent lack of response to emails addressed to guest services

10)   Continually raising drink prices with adjusting HIA price limit

11)   Removal of fresh squeezed juice from HIA

12)   Poor implantation of anytime dining reservations

13)   Park West takeover of public common areas

14)   Elimination of informational port talks

15)   Cutback on the number of crew aboard

16)   Invisibility of sommelier

17)   Removal of embarkation MDR lunch

 

These are just the reasons that I could think of in the past fifteen minutes. We continue to minimally sail HAL when we are doing so with friends.

In the meantime, we have booked or sailed on other lines; Silversea, Windstar, Atlas and AMA Waterways.

 

[Uncle Diluvian]

9 minutes ago, mwj said:

Failure to invest in new ships.

 

New Amsterdam, New Statendam, and almost new Koingsdam, those aren't new ships?

[atexsix]

41 minutes ago, AKJonesy said:

I agree with this and one of those loyal HAL customers is my husband.  If there were a cruise to nowhere, he would support it.  What does he do on cruises?  He eats, takes naps, watches movies, exercises, goes to tea and that's about it.  So, I've had to find a way to fit into his downtime.  I've been on a few cruises and couldn't wait to get off.  Then, I figured out how to make it work for me.  I reach out to other cruisers and go on private excursions; sometimes with him and sometimes without him.  I use the time to study and read which I don't allow myself to do very often while at home.  I've made it work for me, but I'm not going to be one of HAL biggest cheerleaders, and I'm ok with that.  

That's happened to me on occasion but it's not unique to HAL, it could be any cruise line USA, I think it's more related to the passenger base, some cruises I have a blast with them (after all you're living with each other for weeks at a time), still others turned out to be complete duds and yes, I also couldn't wait for disembarkation day. 

[mwj]

10 minutes ago, Uncle Diluvian said:

 

New Amsterdam, New Statendam, and almost new Koingsdam, those aren't new ships?

The last ship (Rotterdam) sailed in the spring of ‘22. HAL has NO new ships on the books. Please contrast this to other major cruise lines.

[Cruisin4now]

No high teas on our last CA/NE trip. Just one year prior, fresh Maine lobster was a MDR upsell leaving Bar Harbor on the same cruise and sadly was not available this year. Also, jumbo (traditional) shrimp cocktail was offered only during one “gala” night. Escargot appeared twice.

 

 

[Petronillus]

YMMV but . . .

 

Things I'm glad have stayed the same:

* The fully wrap-around promenade decks.

* The absence of muzak in the elevators and throughout

* Rolled-up cloth washrags in the lavatories

* The genial cheerfulness of the pax-facing crew

* 24-hour room service at no additional charge (other than cash tip/gratuity)

* The Crow's Nest

 

Some of the positive changes from my point of view:

* Strict limitations on smoking. I'm fine with confining it to the starboard side of the Sea View pool.

* Wi-fi that enables pax to check emails on board and even to have telephone conversations via voip.

* No longer need to pack my tuxedo set (the suit plus the cummerbund plus the infernal bow tie plus the formal shirt plus the studs plus the patent-leather shoes!).

* Anytime dining

* HIA and HIA+

* The laser and other techno enhancements to the World Stage

* No more trays in the Lido buffet. Plus very few occasions for self-service.

* Locating the Explorations Cafe in the Crow's Nest

* Ready availability of hand-washing stations and hand-sanitizer dispensers

* No more BBC Earth (with their infernal snakes terrorizing the poor little lizard hatchlings)

 

Changes I'm still fuming about:

* Requiescat in pace: Lincoln Center Stage

* RIP: Step One Dance Company

* RIP: the second piano/pianist in Billboard Onboard

* RIP: chaplain on the majority of cruises (happily, not likely to affect me because of the itineraries and durations we favor)

 

Changes I'm neutral on:

* RIP: the Yum Yum Man

 

[BermudaBound2014]

24 minutes ago, Uncle Diluvian said:

 

New Amsterdam, New Statendam, and almost new Koingsdam, those aren't new ships?

The first steel was cut on the Koningsdam over 10 years ago. She came online in April 2016. So the design itself is a decade old and the ship (while in great shape) is not “new”.
 

I find that the pinnacle class has some design flaws that make the ships feel far more crowded than ships holding twice the passengers. 
 

New ship designers have invented ways to move crowds more efficiently. They have also figured out how to enhance areas that passengers flock to (think 270 on RCL or observation room on ncl).

 

Dont get me wrong, I’m choosing to sail on a Pinnacle ship again so I do like them and can appreciate them for their classic features. But when I think new ship I tend to look for new and innovative features. The NS and NA are newer, but also built on the 2014 platform. 
 

Nothing wrong with repeating a design that works great (I think of oasis class), but even as good as the oasis class design is (they just keep repeating much the same) RCL is trying new things with the Icon.

 

 

[*Miss G*]

The Nieuw Amsterdam was launched in 2009.  The Rotterdam VII is coming up on three years old.

[johnlcruise]

1 hour ago, Sdfgh said:

I most certainly would agree with you that it has to raise some suspicion regarding the future of HAL why there are no new build orders for the next decade( based upon an article I read ). Unfortunately, perhaps, HALs best days are behind them. 

Do I dare say this?

I believe that Carnivals corporate office will be looking into merging HAL and Princess🙃. As they both offer a lot of the same things. It's still a good 4 or 5 years away. But it could happen.

New name. PrinceHal. 😉

[Mary229]

Cruising overall is changing.  It can be clearly seen that those who want a resort at sea are winning and the traveler/explorer is being left behind by the mass-premium market.  HAL has a few products that still attract us and we will continue to book those sailings. 
 

I think the absolute worst trend for travelers is the over abundance of sea days being built into the new itineraries.  Some of the Grand Voyages where they charge more than double their standard rate are now over 50% sea days. 
 

As to the ship amenities and entertainment, I have noted the changes but they truly don’t concern me. 
 

Someone earlier did an historical analysis of HAL’s builds and according to that detailed report we should expect a new announcement by 2026(?). When that person did that analysis I was taken aback but his facts were correct 

[Mary229]

27 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The first steel was cut on the Koningsdam over 10 years ago. She came online in April 2016. So the design itself is a decade old and the ship (while in great shape) is not “new”.
 

I find that the pinnacle class has some design flaws that make the ships feel far more crowded than ships holding twice the passengers. 
 

New ship designers have invented ways to move crowds more efficiently. They have also figured out how to enhance areas that passengers flock to (think 270 on RCL or observation room on ncl).

 

Dont get me wrong, I’m choosing to sail on a Pinnacle ship again so I do like them and can appreciate them for their classic features. But when I think new ship I tend to look for new and innovative features. The NS and NA are newer, but also built on the 2014 platform. 
 

Nothing wrong with repeating a design that works great (I think of oasis class), but even as good as the oasis class design is (they just keep repeating much the same) RCL is trying new things with the Icon.

 

 

Have you sailed the N. Statendam?  It overcame many of the flaws that exist on the Koningsdam.  I sail the Rotterdam this month and I am hoping it is even further improved.  The new Queen Anne on Cunard is built on the same platform and reports indicate it is even better. 

Edited September 2 by Mary229

[3rdGenCunarder]

56 minutes ago, Petronillus said:

* RIP: Step One Dance Company

 

They're gone? I didn't know that. Can't say I will miss them. Didn't like the "techno enhancements" In the World Stage, like the overly bright screens that gave me headaches. 

 

@mwj's list shocked me. I know all of those changes happened, but to see them in a list like that is very sad, indeed. Add another bad change, the removal of libraries from many ships. Yeah, yeah, I know. They've brought back "libraries." More like a Barnes and Noble with all new titles, not at all like the old libraries that were built over time. 

[Petronillus]

49 minutes ago, johnlcruise said:

I believe that Carnivals corporate office will be looking into merging HAL and Princess🙃. As they both offer a lot of the same things. It's still a good 4 or 5 years away. But it could happen.

I agree that consolidation of lines is plausible, maybe even likely. I don't know enough about Princess to envision what the merging of the two fleets might entail or ultimately look like. But it's hard to imagine that CCL would discard the brand equity wrapped into HAL's association with the Netherlands and its 150+ year history.

[Kay S]

4 hours ago, esimon said:

NO

HAL is HAL.  If I want something else, I'll book that.  We had this very same discussion a couple of weeks ago right here on this forum.  I guess we are doing it again. 😶 

[Ken the cruiser]

I don't know what the future has in store for HAL, but P&O Australia is being absorbed by Carnival Cruise Line and will cease to exist in March 2025.

 

Carnival Cruise Line to absorb P&O Cruises Australia (usatoday.com)

 

Edited September 2 by Ken the cruiser

[mcrcruiser]

5 hours ago, St Pete Cruiser said:

Carnival has decided to only invest in those brands that are the most profitable at this time, at least until more of the debt is paid off.

That then can mean the end of this cruise line . just like GM cast off   Pontiac & Oldsmobile  

[LAFFNVEGAS]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

They're gone? I didn't know that. Can't say I will miss them. Didn't like the "techno enhancements" In the World Stage, like the overly bright screens that gave me headaches. 

 

@mwj's list shocked me. I know all of those changes happened, but to see them in a list like that is very sad, indeed. Add another bad change, the removal of libraries from many ships. Yeah, yeah, I know. They've brought back "libraries." More like a Barnes and Noble with all new titles, not at all like the old libraries that were built over time. 

As of last week they were definitely not gone on the Westerdam, same old Step One shows that have been performed for 10 years now.