Norovirus on Ventura (May 2024)

[crompton21]

There's a BBC article on the above published this morning (in the Hampshire section).  I found the following bit saddening, but perhaps not surprising....

 

P&O Cruises said it had "proven protocols" to deal with health issues on board its ships.

It claimed at the time that fewer than 1% of passengers on the sailing had been taken ill.

But a Freedom of Information request to the port health authority in Southampton later revealed that at the height of the outbreak, 519 people were affected, 12.3% of those on board.

[Selbourne]

I presume that figure must include crew members, as if 519 people is 12.3% that means that there were 4,220 people on board. 

[ace2542]

3 hours ago, Selbourne said:

I presume that figure must include crew members, as if 519 people is 12.3% that means that there were 4,220 people on board. 

That is not a lot for a ship of 4.2k. Be tough to claim though after all what are P&O to do when a an ill person likely lied to get onboard? You also cant prove noro without a lab culture which wasn't done.

[terrierjohn]

I seem to remember that P&O said the 1% of passengers referred to the number of confirmed cases on disembarcation and since noro normally lasts 2 days that may be correct, and of course it did not count crew.

[jeanlyon]

I really don't understand how they can sue for this.  Anybody could have caught it without knowing and brought it on board.

[Snow Hill]

9 hours ago, Selbourne said:

I presume that figure must include crew members, as if 519 people is 12.3% that means that there were 4,220 people on board. 

The article says passengers and crew were included in the 519 affected individuals 

[9265359]

4 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

I really don't understand how they can sue for this.

 

Whether any claim would succeed would depend on whether the cruise company could demonstrate it had adequately followed hygiene procedures - and maybe they can, but maybe they can't - certainly on my last cruise where boarding was delayed for a deep clean because of noro(which wasn't successful) the hygiene procedures onboard were pretty slapdash and surprise surprise the next cruise was also delayed for a deep clean.

 

4 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

Anybody could have caught it without knowing and brought it on board.

 

On the balance of probabilities, I can't see any court accepting that a passenger was already sick when boarding in the middle of summer and didn't pick it up on a 'plague' ship where 519 people out of 4,200 were infected.

[Leahetea]

It’s a concern, I’ve taken 17 cruises in 20 years, the last 5 with my children. We’ve never suffered from Norovirus until our second to last cruise, in April 2024 on Iona. My 14yr old daughter came down with it on disembarkation day and really suffered, and incidentally was the only one who ate in the buffet 24hrs before. (We weren’t avoiding it, just had many reservations in other restaurants). I have to be honest it’s put me off using the buffet, we were away with Princess in July but I still avoided the buffet, despite seeing the crew and officers partaking. We did notice increased hand gel reminders in the last 2 days on Iona, so likely they knew a problem, but appreciate it’s circumstantial.

[Funboy]

2 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Whether any claim would succeed would depend on whether the cruise company could demonstrate it had adequately followed hygiene procedures - and maybe they can, but maybe they can't - certainly on my last cruise where boarding was delayed for a deep clean because of noro(which wasn't successful) the hygiene procedures onboard were pretty slapdash and surprise surprise the next cruise was also delayed for a deep clean.

 

 

On the balance of probabilities, I can't see any court accepting that a passenger was already sick when boarding in the middle of summer and didn't pick it up on a 'plague' ship where 519 people out of 4,200 were infected.

From what I understand a 'deep clean' would take days with the ship virtually empty. To say they do a 'deep clean' in the few hours between disembarkation and embarkation is ludicrous. They say this has been done to make the passengers confident.  The problem is that people do not wash their hands before going into the dining rooms and P&O don't make them. On our last two cruises on Iona in the Horizon you could count the number of people on one hand who washed theirs at the entrance near where we were sitting.

[Funboy]

1 hour ago, Leahetea said:

It’s a concern, I’ve taken 17 cruises in 20 years, the last 5 with my children. We’ve never suffered from Norovirus until our second to last cruise, in April 2024 on Iona. My 14yr old daughter came down with it on disembarkation day and really suffered, and incidentally was the only one who ate in the buffet 24hrs before. (We weren’t avoiding it, just had many reservations in other restaurants). I have to be honest it’s put me off using the buffet, we were away with Princess in July but I still avoided the buffet, despite seeing the crew and officers partaking. We did notice increased hand gel reminders in the last 2 days on Iona, so likely they knew a problem, but appreciate it’s circumstantial.

The hand gel has no effect on the norovirus bug and P&O know this as science is always reminding us.

 

[carlanthony24]

3 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Whether any claim would succeed would depend on whether the cruise company could demonstrate it had adequately followed hygiene procedures - and maybe they can, but maybe they can't - certainly on my last cruise where boarding was delayed for a deep clean because of noro(which wasn't successful) the hygiene procedures onboard were pretty slapdash and surprise surprise the next cruise was also delayed for a deep clean.

 

 

On the balance of probabilities, I can't see any court accepting that a passenger was already sick when boarding in the middle of summer and didn't pick it up on a 'plague' ship where 519 people out of 4,200 were infected.

Presuming from the health authorties going onboard if they were not happy the ship most likely wouldn't have sailed with passengers.

 

It just seems some lawyers got wind of the incident and think its an easy way to make money when they most likely won't get anywhere. If it goes to court I guess the judge will ask how do you know you definitely got it from the ship? With a response from the judge being like you could of caught it before you boarded and symptoms started showing once they were underway....

Edited September 4 by carlanthony24

[Megabear2]

6 hours ago, carlanthony24 said:

Presuming from the health authorties going onboard if they were not happy the ship most likely wouldn't have sailed with passengers.

 

It just seems some lawyers got wind of the incident and think its an easy way to make money when they most likely won't get anywhere. If it goes to court I guess the judge will ask how do you know you definitely got it from the ship? With a response from the judge being like you could of caught it before you boarded and symptoms started showing once they were underway....

Medical experts will be used to explain the incubation period etc of all illnesses of this type.  If everyone boarding at Southampton is presumed well at departure (cannot say about the crew but records would be checked) this would be used for the basis of the argument put forward to the court.  

 

The interesting question would be if the supposed best endeavours, ie the worldwide protocol is actually fit for purpose in the event of a severe outbreak.  A total deep clean would take many many hours longer than the delay period.

 

If it actually makes it to court that question could have quite far reaching effects on the industry.

[Megabear2]

7 hours ago, Funboy said:

The problem is that people do not wash their hands before going into the dining rooms and P&O don't make them

Currently on Aurora where there is one sink at each entry to the buffet.  Day one staff instructing everyone to wash hands and a considerable queue formed.  I was third in the queue and standing by the hand gel machine patiently.  A fellow guest told me I was causing an obstruction and get on with using the gel.  I explained the hand-wash queue and was told it's not necessary, use the gel.

 

After day one the staff have not told anyone to use the sinks and most I see take a quick gel squirt or just walk in.  It's quite depressing.  The availability of sinks leading to the queue to get in clearly antagonised the impatient.  I guess retro fitting handfasting stations does have limitations but at least they have tried.

[yorkshirephil]

13 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

 

 

If it actually makes it to court that question could have quite far reaching effects on the industry.

In the unlikely event that a case was won and compensation applied, what next sue the hospital or school where norovirus can be rife?

[Megabear2]

13 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

In the unlikely event that a case was won and compensation applied, what next sue the hospital or school where norovirus can be rife?

I am saying the reason I believe the solicitors (there are several companies not just one) think it's worth taking the case.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong merely why they will consider it viable to go yo court.

 

The outbreak on Ventura was not confirmed as norovirus, merely described as a gastro intestinal illness.  A good solicitor will use this  as not only one voyage was affected and will say P&O should have been more proactive to confirm the actual illness. They will say an outbreak of this size in a hospital for instance would most likely lead to a ward closure for a full deep clean to eradicate the germs.

 

If I recall correctly around the same time QV had a similar outbreak which was in US waters. That was described as unknown gastro intestinal illness too.  In other words the system allows vague descriptions.

[9265359]

9 hours ago, carlanthony24 said:

Presuming from the health authorties going onboard if they were not happy the ship most likely wouldn't have sailed with passengers.

 

That isn't how it works in the UK - just look at all the restaurants with one, two, or zero 'scores on the door' for their hygiene rating, and all those would simply be closed down rather than being given a poor score if the 'don't sail' approach was taken.

 

9 hours ago, carlanthony24 said:

It just seems some lawyers got wind of the incident and think its an easy way to make money when they most likely won't get anywhere.

 

A law firm taking on a 'no win, no fee' case doesn't make any money if they don't win...

 

9 hours ago, carlanthony24 said:

If it goes to court I guess the judge will ask how do you know you definitely got it from the ship?

 

As before, civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities - and boarding a ship in summer when norovirus cases in general are low, but the ship has where hundreds of people who have suffered from it this cruise, and hundreds the last cruise  and hundreds the previous, etc. etc.

 

Hmm... that's not hard to decide where the person likely caught it.

 

9 hours ago, carlanthony24 said:

With a response from the judge being like you could of caught it before you boarded and symptoms started showing once they were underway....

 

Nope.

 

The only defence the cruise company has is that is was following established hygiene protocols to prevent it being transmitted to its guests - and from my experience it might very well struggle to do that with the lacklustre and random way the cleaning and other procedures were being followed by staff.

 

Edited September 5 by 9265359

[Megabear2]

This article has an interesting table in the middle which will.offer some perspective as to why the lawyers feel it is worth taking on.

 

I'd guess from these figures the argument will be pretty obvious.

 

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24563598.p-o-cruises-ventura-1-000-cases-norovirus-across-11-sailings/

[zap99]

3 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Medical experts will be used to explain the incubation period etc of all illnesses of this type.  If everyone boarding at Southampton is presumed well at departure (cannot say about the crew but records would be checked) this would be used for the basis of the argument put forward to the court.  

 

The interesting question would be if the supposed best endeavours, ie the worldwide protocol is actually fit for purpose in the event of a severe outbreak.  A total deep clean would take many many hours longer than the delay period.

 

If it actually makes it to court that question could have quite far reaching effects on the industry.

On our questionnaire on Arvia I told them to have more washy,washy crew as your customers are slobs...they didn’t listen...how much does an expert witness get.?.

[Megabear2]

Just now, zap99 said:

On our questionnaire on Arvia I told them to have more washy,washy crew as your customers are slobs...they didn’t listen...how much does an expert witness get.?.

A lot!!!!

[jeanlyon]

13 hours ago, Leahetea said:

It’s a concern, I’ve taken 17 cruises in 20 years, the last 5 with my children. We’ve never suffered from Norovirus until our second to last cruise, in April 2024 on Iona. My 14yr old daughter came down with it on disembarkation day and really suffered, and incidentally was the only one who ate in the buffet 24hrs before. (We weren’t avoiding it, just had many reservations in other restaurants). I have to be honest it’s put me off using the buffet, we were away with Princess in July but I still avoided the buffet, despite seeing the crew and officers partaking. We did notice increased hand gel reminders in the last 2 days on Iona, so likely they knew a problem, but appreciate it’s circumstantial.

and yet we always use the buffet for breakfast and lunch and have never come down with it.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

 

That isn't how it works in the UK - just look at all the restaurants with one, two, or zero 'scores on the door' for their hygiene rating, and all those would simply be closed down rather than being given a poor score if the 'don't sail' approach was taken.

 

 

A law firm taking on a 'no win, no fee' case doesn't make any money if they don't win...

 

 

As before, civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities - and boarding a ship in summer when norovirus cases in general are low, but the ship has where hundreds of people who have suffered from it this cruise, and hundreds the last cruise  and hundreds the previous, etc. etc.

 

Hmm... that's not hard to decide where the person likely caught it.

 

 

Nope.

 

The only defence the cruise company has is that is was following established hygiene protocols to prevent it being transmitted to its guests - and from my experience it might very well struggle to do that with the lacklustre and random way the cleaning and other procedures were being followed by staff.

 

You may well be right, BUT how many cruise lines in the UK have been sued and lost for a noro outbreak? 

Thomson successfully defended one in 2015.

[mercury7289]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

This article has an interesting table in the middle which will.offer some perspective as to why the lawyers feel it is worth taking on.

 

I'd guess from these figures the argument will be pretty obvious.

 

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24563598.p-o-cruises-ventura-1-000-cases-norovirus-across-11-sailings/

As would be on Aurora,Lot of people ill on the early December cruise and again on our May cruise,which had delayed boarding for deep clean?? December got told air born virus.I  caught Covid became very ill, taken months to overcome,and still not fully recovered. May nova and air borne present, I got ill again! Have cancelled the Christmas booking on Aurora and lost our deposit. We are on Arcadia in October, East Med,Will be our last cruise if illness strikes again

 

[9265359]

2 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

You may well be right, BUT how many cruise lines in the UK have been sued and lost for a noro outbreak? 

 

Hard to say, as if any cruise company was in a situation that it would not win in court, then I strongly doubt it would let the case get as far as a public judgement as the damage in lost future bookings and cancellations would be far far more costly than anything they paid out to the claimant.

 

Far more likely is that such a case would be settled out of court with an NDA and nobody would ever be able to discover that the payment had been made.

 

And wasn't the Thomson case the one where people had been staying on all inclusive holidays and then claiming that they ate nowhere else and thus it must have been the food on site that had caused them to be ill, but social media posts showed that they had not been telling the truth about being sick.

 

Edited September 5 by 9265359

[carlanthony24]

https://www.hilldickinson.com/insights/media/hill-dickinson-helps-cruise-industry-win-key-norovirus-judgment Upon reading this I can’t see them winning. 

[carlanthony24]

6 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Hard to say, as if any cruise company was in a situation that it would not win in court, then I strongly doubt it would let the case get as far as a public judgement as the damage in lost future bookings and cancellations would be far far more costly than anything they paid out to the claimant.

 

Far more likely is that such a case would be settled out of court with an NDA and nobody would ever be able to discover that the payment had been made.

 

And wasn't the Thomson case the one where people had been staying on all inclusive holidays and then claiming that they ate nowhere else and thus it must have been the food on site that had caused them to be ill, but social media posts showed that they had not been telling the truth about being sick.

 

See link I posted. Depends how much compensation the claimants would like. Maybe P&O would like it to go to court so if they win for anyone that wants to challenge again will think twice about doing so. P&O followed same protocols that TUI did according to the link. We also don’t know if they are making any other claims…