Return to traditional muster drills?

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

19 hours ago, WriterOnDeck said:

I thought it was a requirement every 90 days but that interval could be wrong. It can "strike" on any cruise - not just the longer ones. It makes you appreciate the new version.

 

They should just serve wine and call it a block party.

That's a good idea. Sangria.

[syesmar]

22 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

Everyone standing and few able to lean on anything as the captain and cruise director drone on about things rather tangentially related to the safety of the ship? ….I hope they will remember that it isn't an endurance contest.

I have a medical condition where I have a great intolerance to standing still and hot weather. When we had to wear the life jacket crowded side-by-side in close quarters, there were times I nearly fainted😀 I developed a system to prevent this after a couple cruises…

 

Interesting that the OP’s muster drill was in the Theater.

 

Happy Sailing!

[Ipeeinthepools]

3 minutes ago, syesmar said:

I have a medical condition where I have a great intolerance to standing still and hot weather. When we had to wear the life jacket crowded side-by-side in close quarters, there were times I nearly fainted😀 I developed a system to prevent this after a couple cruises…

 

Interesting that the OP’s muster drill was in the Theater.

 

Happy Sailing!

I guess it depends on your definition of traditional.  I equated going to the theatre with bringing your life jacket and standing on deck.  I had forgotten about the older standing on deck packed together like sardines. It’s probably been at least 20 years since I’ve experienced the standing on deck.  But upon further review, sitting in the theatre, dining room or anywhere else indoors is a lot better than standing on deck and seemed like an improvement at the time.

[cbr663]

15 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

Now that I have experienced the 6 month muster, it is definitely for the crew.  Some crew didn’t realize they needed to scan every guest to confirm attendance, some crew standing on stage didn’t know they were supposed to demonstrate how to wear the life jacket and no one seemed to know when it ended.  The passengers just decided to leave.  No guidance from the Captain or Cruise Director.

 

Your description doesn't build much confidence in the event of an actual abandon ship incident.  This lack of confidence was always my takeaway from previous muster drills when we had to gather as a group at our assigned life boat.  I always left thinking what an absolute gong show it will be if we have to abandon ship.  I never left a muster drill feeling confident that the crew can effectively handle such a situation.

[Ipeeinthepools]

56 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

 

Your description doesn't build much confidence in the event of an actual abandon ship incident.  This lack of confidence was always my takeaway from previous muster drills when we had to gather as a group at our assigned life boat.  I always left thinking what an absolute gong show it will be if we have to abandon ship.  I never left a muster drill feeling confident that the crew can effectively handle such a situation.

in the event of an actual emergency, i choose to believe that there are enough experienced people working the critical jobs of loading the lifeboats, lowering the boats and sailing them away from the ship.  I doubt that we’ll all be in our assigned lifeboats and they will load them with whoever is by the lifeboat entrance.  This isn’t because of any crew errors but because I don’t believe the guests will be following directions.  If many of my fellow passengers cutting in front of me at the buffet, I suspect that they will do the same if we are sinking.

[Wehwalt]

14 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

I know, I know, it's annoying and it happens when people are eager to unpack and have that first drink. But it could turn out to be very important information. And, after reading @Ipeeinthepools's description, it sounds like the crew need to do this more often. 

I would urge you, before you quote me again, to go back and read what I actually wrote. My objection was to having a couple of thousand eighty year olds standing without support on a hot deck, as the comfortably-seated captain and cruise director drone on much longer than necessary, about events that evening or the route out to sea. If you must muster in person then don't take advantage of a captive audience. But if you want to imply my objection was that it interferes with unpacking or getting drunk, then fine. 

Edited September 8 by Wehwalt

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Is it more efficient for the purpose of training the crew as to what they would need to do if there was a real muster situation in which they would have to gather everyone at basically the same time?

I don't see anyone answering my question. I wonder if @chengkp75  could give his opinion on the training or lack of training with the new muster drill.

[bbodb1]

1 hour ago, cbr663 said:

 

Your description doesn't build much confidence in the event of an actual abandon ship incident.  This lack of confidence was always my takeaway from previous muster drills when we had to gather as a group at our assigned life boat.  I always left thinking what an absolute gong show it will be if we have to abandon ship.  I never left a muster drill feeling confident that the crew can effectively handle such a situation.

 

I can understand a lack of confidence in The Unknown Comic but Gene, Gene the Dancing Machine??? 😉

[3rdGenCunarder]

43 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

I would urge you, before you quote me again, to go back and read what I actually wrote. My objection was to having a couple of thousand eighty year olds standing without support on a hot deck, as the comfortably-seated captain and cruise director drone on much longer than necessary, about events that evening or the route out to sea. If you must muster in person then don't take advantage of a captive audience. But if you want to imply my objection was that it interferes with unpacking or getting drunk, then fine. 

 

I didn't mean to imply that you love to get blind drunk the minute you're on board. That comment was a general response to the usual ''it's a waste of time" feeling that makes people like the new system. And that feeling seems to have spread to the crew who sort of shrug it off, like "yeah, go get your card scanned." 

 

I don't see the drill as taking advantage of a captive audience. It's making sure that audience is prepared for an emergency. Additional announcements like droning on about not throwing cigarette ends overboard could save someone's life. Reading a list of the day's activities would be taking advantage of a captive audience, but I have never heard that at a drill. 

 

If someone can't stand for 10-15 minutes, they should register with the ship as needing assistance. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. God forbid if it should come to that, what would they do? Back in the day when it was a full muster every time, posters here said that there was an indoor muster area for people with mobility issues. I just booked a Cunard cruise and a new part of the "before you go" process is completing the special needs form. Everyone is now required to do this, not just people who have special requirements for travel. One of the questions was "Will you need help in an emergency?"

 

I much prefer the indoor muster. I've always wondered how crew would get the boats ready with everyone on deck. 

 

 

Edited September 8 by 3rdGenCunarder

[3rdGenCunarder]

38 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

in the event of an actual emergency, i choose to believe that there are enough experienced people working the critical jobs of loading the lifeboats, lowering the boats and sailing them away from the ship.  I doubt that we’ll all be in our assigned lifeboats and they will load them with whoever is by the lifeboat entrance.  This isn’t because of any crew errors but because I don’t believe the guests will be following directions.  If many of my fellow passengers cutting in front of me at the buffet, I suspect that they will do the same if we are sinking.

 

With the indoor muster, you don't have an assigned lifeboat, just an assigned muster station. That's one way the crew can control crowds. You stay at your station until taken to a lifeboat. 

 

The crew who check your card at the "new" style muster, are all "welcome aboard, enjoy your cruise." But in a real emergency, there would be more crew/officers at the stations, and I suspect the tone would be more authoritative. 

[CruiserBruce]

5 hours ago, syesmar said:

I have a medical condition where I have a great intolerance to standing still and hot weather. When we had to wear the life jacket crowded side-by-side in close quarters, there were times I nearly fainted😀 I developed a system to prevent this after a couple cruises…

 

Interesting that the OP’s muster drill was in the Theater.

 

Happy Sailing!

On the Pinnacle class ships, all muster stations are inside, due to the Promenade not being large enough for muster stations. So, instead, you muster in the MDR, bars or lounges, theater, etc.

[WriterOnDeck]

7 hours ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

 

Jo, is Westerdam still doing the scan and go?

It was at the beginning of this cruise a week ago. If I recall correctly, during the 28-day Alaska cruise in June/July, we once had to all go to our muster stations on the Promenade, due to the requirement for that occasionally by some government ruling authority. (It could have been at the end of the world cruise on the Zuiderdam -- they run together.)

 

For those who think for training of the crew, I think the crew have excellent training and they do drills every week. I'm guessing that the confusion was with crew doing an unusual demonstration drill in the theater. I have full confidence that in any actual emergency they would be stellar.

[KAKcruiser]

I agree.

[chengkp75]

21 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

Now that I have experienced the 6 month muster, it is definitely for the crew.  Some crew didn’t realize they needed to scan every guest to confirm attendance, some crew standing on stage didn’t know they were supposed to demonstrate how to wear the life jacket and no one seemed to know when it ended.  The passengers just decided to leave.  No guidance from the Captain or Cruise Director.

This is what I've always feared when the move to the e-muster came, and it was justified a while back when NCL went back to traditional musters and chaos was reported from a few cruises, and then RCI had an actual emergency muster, and there was chaos because passengers could not remember what deck their muster station was on, let alone where it was, and the excuse posted was "well, it was 7 days ago that we went to the muster station".

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Is it more efficient for the purpose of training the crew as to what they would need to do if there was a real muster situation in which they would have to gather everyone at basically the same time?

In the new muster drill, crew do not get experience in handling actual crowds, which is the main job of the crew assigned to passenger muster duties.

6 hours ago, syesmar said:

I have a medical condition where I have a great intolerance to standing still and hot weather. When we had to wear the life jacket crowded side-by-side in close quarters, there were times I nearly fainted😀 I developed a system to prevent this after a couple cruises…

 

Interesting that the OP’s muster drill was in the Theater.

 

Happy Sailing!

You should always have been able to report your medical condition to Guest Services upon embarkation, and be assigned to a "special needs" muster station, typically, indoors, and with seating.

5 hours ago, cbr663 said:

 

Your description doesn't build much confidence in the event of an actual abandon ship incident.  This lack of confidence was always my takeaway from previous muster drills when we had to gather as a group at our assigned life boat.  I always left thinking what an absolute gong show it will be if we have to abandon ship.  I never left a muster drill feeling confident that the crew can effectively handle such a situation.

My experience is different, I generally found that the crew were capable of handling the passenger muster, and loading the boats.  With the new e-muster, I don't feel that at all.

4 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

in the event of an actual emergency, i choose to believe that there are enough experienced people working the critical jobs of loading the lifeboats, lowering the boats and sailing them away from the ship.  I doubt that we’ll all be in our assigned lifeboats and they will load them with whoever is by the lifeboat entrance.  This isn’t because of any crew errors but because I don’t believe the guests will be following directions.  If many of my fellow passengers cutting in front of me at the buffet, I suspect that they will do the same if we are sinking.

You will not be loaded into a random boat, they will load you by muster station, as this is the only way we have of ensuring accountability of who is on the ship, and who has evacuated.

4 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

I would urge you, before you quote me again, to go back and read what I actually wrote. My objection was to having a couple of thousand eighty year olds standing without support on a hot deck, as the comfortably-seated captain and cruise director drone on much longer than necessary, about events that evening or the route out to sea. If you must muster in person then don't take advantage of a captive audience. But if you want to imply my objection was that it interferes with unpacking or getting drunk, then fine. 

Most of what you describe as wasting time by the Captain, is actually the time to complete the balance of the muster drill, that passengers never see, because they are at their muster stations.  This is the cabin and deck searching, the reporting of the status of the decks (whether anyone was found, or whether the decks are empty), and the collapsing of the deck teams down to the embarkation deck.  Yes, the announcements are "filler", but that is just to keep the passengers' attention, while the rest of the drill completes.

6 minutes ago, WriterOnDeck said:

 

For those who think for training of the crew, I think the crew have excellent training and they do drills every week. I'm guessing that the confusion was with crew doing an unusual demonstration drill in the theater. I have full confidence that in any actual emergency they would be stellar.

While I agree that the crew do get good training, as I note in my first comment in this post above, they do not get the training, experience, or expertise in handling large crowds, as they would in an emergency, and those crowds not being real cooperative, as they would in an actual emergency.  I support doing the traditional muster every so often, but the fact that it is felt necessary to do so, indicates that the regulatory bodies recognize that the e-muster is deficient in realistic crew training.

[Cruising Is Bliss]

5 hours ago, WriterOnDeck said:

For those who think for training of the crew, I think the crew have excellent training and they do drills every week. I'm guessing that the confusion was with crew doing an unusual demonstration drill in the theater. I have full confidence that in any actual emergency they would be stellar.

 

Totally agree.

 

Edited September 8 by Cruising Is Bliss

[3rdGenCunarder]

Yes, the crew do all kinds of drills, including fire and medical emergency.

 

@chengkp75 made several important points, but the one that struck me is crowd control. They're used to being nice and doing what we ask. They don't say "no."  In the drill, they still want to be nice, but now WE must do what THEY ask/tell us to do. So herding people, checking for potential problems, whether it's behavior or special needs, all that requires practice. 

[CruiserBruce]

The crew train a lot, and while not perfect,  I suspect they will perform FAR better than the average passenger...having seen average pax, and average citizens,  behavior in emergencies many times. That scares me, with almost 40 years in emergencies (plus DW's 40 years),  tremendously. 

[iflyrc5]

Last year I got to the World Stage early for a presentation and there was a group of crew members there and a guy from corporate doing training on how to handle stressful situations during an abandon ship situation.  He was very good and did some role-playing acting out as a parent looking for their child and then giving examples of what to do if a person fell on the stairs and was blocking the stairway.  I was very impressed with the training.

 

My concern being is the lifeboats as supposed to handle 150 with bulky lifejackets.  When we use them for tenders, we only have 60 people without lifejackets, and it is packed pretty tight.  I don't see how they are going to fit 150 people.   Also, how long will it take to get that many people with some using canes, walkers, scooters, etc. to board the lifeboat at night with rain, 30 knot winds and rolling seas?

[SanDiegian]

We sailed a Back to Back itinerary on New Amsterdam up the West coast to Alaska and stopped in Vancouver BC. We were happy to book in a Neptune suite, and required to only check in at our Muster Station during an hour period before departure. My wife has a mobility scooter and avoids crowds whenever possible, so I went alone to just flash once for my SeaPass then wait for a group to blend into then flash my wife’s SeaPass. Curiously our lifeboat was all the way on the other end of the ship from our cabin, because she needs assistance to get into a tender? But still appreciated familiarity with how to find where to go in an emergency. 

Still curious we were tied up on the dock when the Zaandam tried to put in behind the ship, and put her bow into the Rear Deck 5 cabins causing the Captain to announce “Aft end, abandon ship!” We could not believe what we heard, and just froze, then I turned on the TV to listen for further announcements since we only heard it come through in the corridor. Quickly the captain gave the all clear and even though we were staying aboard for the next leg of the trip, we were asked to disembark for sea-worthiness inspection. In the terminal we watched the Captain leave the ship & return 3-4x probably to explain to HAL & Coast Guard Canada who-what-where-when-why&how. Departure occurred after mounting temporary running lights & cameras to aft because of damage. Yes, confusion!!!  

[ellieanne]

Having done the new scan & watch and the old muster drills, I much prefer the old ones. It's a question of knowing exactly what to do rather than trusting passengers to find their muster station and then watch the video in the cabins. On my last cabin, I saw a number of cabins with the muster drill video on the tv, but the passengers leaving the cabin. There is no way to ensure that passengers actually pay attention to the information in the video. With the old at your muster station drills, at least they know that every passengers has been to their muster station and has been in the room while donning the lifejacket was demonstrated and the instructions as to what to do in an actual emergency were reviewed. Yes, I know they can't ensure everyone at the muster station paid attention to the information, but they were present when it was given. My experience is that a fair number of passengers were not present when the video was being played.
I'd rather be in an emergency situation with people who were there to hear instructions than people who just turned on a video and left the room.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, iflyrc5 said:

My concern being is the lifeboats as supposed to handle 150 with bulky lifejackets.  When we use them for tenders, we only have 60 people without lifejackets, and it is packed pretty tight.  I don't see how they are going to fit 150 people.   Also, how long will it take to get that many people with some using canes, walkers, scooters, etc. to board the lifeboat at night with rain, 30 knot winds and rolling seas?

I can speak from personal experience of being loaded into lifeboats, both hanging on the ship, and also being launched into the water, many times, and I will say that it is not a fun experience, but then again, its not supposed to be fun, it is a life and death scenario.  Comfort is not a consideration.

 

150 people will fit into a lifeboat, but you are packed so tightly that there is almost no room to move.  You basically have to have one person sitting upright, the next leaning forward, and the next sitting upright again, to fit people's shoulders in.  Again, what a person has experienced in life as "crowded" has no meaning in a lifesaving situation.

 

In your weather scenario, those who use canes, walkers, and scooters will abandon those devices at the muster station (which they will do even in fine weather), and will be assisted/lifted/carried into the boat by crew.  The embarkation lighting at the boats is both emergency lighting and battery lighting, so it is the last power to go.  The boats are bound tightly to the side of the ship when loading, and then these lines are let go to lower the boat, so there is no relative motion between the boat and ship, unlike when tendering.  And, a Captain will take into account the weather when deciding when it is time to load the boats.  Remember, the passenger muster alarm is not the abandon ship signal.  Passenger muster is to provide accountability for all passengers and to have them in known and controlled locations, should the Captain subsequently decide to abandon ship.

[syesmar]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

…You should always have been able to report your medical condition to Guest Services upon embarkation, and be assigned to a "special needs" muster station, typically, indoors, and with seating.…

I didn’t realize that, appreciate the information! I wish I had known back in the day, I didn’t even think to inform anyone.

[Wehwalt]

Be it as it may be. I'm content that for every post-pandemic sailing I've been on, on three cruise lines, the new-style muster drills have been thought to be sufficient. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

10 hours ago, iflyrc5 said:

Last year I got to the World Stage early for a presentation and there was a group of crew members there and a guy from corporate doing training on how to handle stressful situations during an abandon ship situation.  He was very good and did some role-playing acting out as a parent looking for their child and then giving examples of what to do if a person fell on the stairs and was blocking the stairway.  I was very impressed with the training.

 

I'm impressed that they do that kind of training. It could be years (and hopefully never) until that training is needed, but it tends to stick somewhere in your mind and come back to you when you need it. 

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I'm impressed that they do that kind of training. It could be years (and hopefully never) until that training is needed, but it tends to stick somewhere in your mind and come back to you when you need it. 

As part of the IMO's STCW (Standards of Training, Competency and Watchkeeping) convention, all deck and engine officers and any crew with responsibilities for the safety of passengers (so most of the crew) are required to have "Crisis Management and Human Behavior" training.  Along with this, deck and engine officers and hotel supervisors are required to have "Crowd Management" training.  Finally, in addition to the previous two courses, senior deck and engine officers, along with senior hotel supervisors are required to take "Crowd and Crisis Management" training.  The first course is a 4 hour course, the second is 8 hours, and the third is 3 days.