Where did NCL go wrong with Hawaii?

[smeyer418]

I think it's idiotic to describe freestyle cruising as "no better than the idiots at Sonic asking me 'you want tater tots with that?'"

What is Sonic(none in NY) and whats a tater tot? Is something to do with Ultra sound and a child's potato? I think we should get back on topic....

[lynnemac]

And remember that while we all like CC and all the wonderful advice and opinions that we receive, only a very small percentage of cruisers even know about or use CC. That number will continue to grow and then, and only then, will good or bad opinions actually have much statistical value other than just being opinions.

 

That is why when I read the reviews of a particular ship I am more interested in those who gave it a 3 or 4 ribbon rating than the extremes as a well balanced review is more help to everyone.

 

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Mac:) :) :)

[mikedw]

I wonder what this will all mean for my beloved SS United States?

 

Check out www.ssunitedstatesconservancy.org our next meeting is June in Philadelphia.

 

Take care,

 

Michael

[mew1]

If you think the glass is half empty that is what it will be, I prefer Half FULL. I am going on NCL Pride of America in OCT. I am sure it will be as great as the NCL JEWEL. Have fun everyone

mew1:)

[lynnemac]

I only care if there is something in the glass.

 

Mac:) :) :)

[shoreguy]

My take on the original question - what went wrong - a disastrous start, that still spills over effecting the ability to charge fares in line with cost.

 

Keep in mind the original plan was to start with the Pride of America a brand new ship with a crew that would have been brought together earlier to work the bugs out. The introduction of the POAM went much smoother then the POAL and they had to staff two ships. POAM still gets the best reviews.

 

Remember the POAM sank at the dock in the shipyard, The Sky (POAL) was rushed into service to pick up the itineraries, and the Spirit moved from Star (Leo) to pick up the Sky's. All the detailed plans to launch NCLA went in the trash. I believe they went into scrabble mode, no time to build a real team onboard, frustrated management ran off US crew members, the short staffing then ran off more, and the initial horror stories started. A giant hole to climb out of.

 

NCL is still paying a price for those initial reviews.

[AZPam]

I really appreciate all the comments so far on this thread. We are considering booking an NCLA out of Hawaii for next March but have been concerned about some of the negatives I've read regarding the service. We have cruised Princess for about the last 7-8 years and are very much use to that so are leary of trying something new even though we are ready for a change. Any additional comments will really help me out!

[Kapuna]

I would assume NCL/Star/Genting Group did a lot of research in preparing for the Hawaiian cruise market and yet it doesn't seem to be working. From the reviews that I read, it seems the number one problem is the wait for food, whether it be in the dining rooms or the buffet. I read on another board that NCLA held a job fair in Philly and they did not have one person sign up. So it seems to ME that there is a problem with hiring and keeping employees.

 

NCL has pulled the international ship that cruised Hawaii. I am guessing that is to reduce the competition and make the US flagged the only option.

 

My question for those of you who seem pretty astute about the NCLA business is what is really wrong? What did NCL not figure in the calculation? Will the Hawaiian cruises become profitable (how?)? Are these still considered startup problems? Or like other Hawaiian cruise endeavors will this project fail? Is NCLA making other changes to help? There are a lot of people who seem happy with their cruise. If you look at the reviews on CC, there are many more ratings of 5 than 1 or 2. So it seems that people who are prepared are happy with the product, but there are huge losses reported. What is the problem?

 

Just looking for opinions. Thanks.

It is a pity that the original question is not being addressed . I suggest that the answer is overcapacity .

 

After the initial novelty wore off , it became more and more difficult to sustain four large ships in Honolulu . As a result , NCL has been forced to offer ruinous discounts in order to keep the ships full . Just yesterday their website offered the 4/4/07 ten day cruise on the "Wind" at a fare of $79 ( plus port charge and tax ) for a conscierge class outside cabin ! No wonder they lose money .

 

NCL is wisely making changes in ship deployments . The Wind is leaving Hawaii in a few weeks and the Pride of Aloha will be redeployed to offer 10 and 11 day cruises starting in September . That leaves just the Pride of Hawaii and the Pride of America doing 7 day cruises with a significant reduction in capacity .

[newmexicoNita]

I think it's idiotic to describe freestyle cruising as "no better than the idiots at Sonic asking me 'you want tater tots with that?'"

I'm really not even sure what she meant or why she said something like that? I agree, what a rediculous statement, but so it any reference to other country crew members maybe not being honest. The whoe thing bothered me. NMnita

[newmexicoNita]

What is Sonic(none in NY) and whats a tater tot? Is something to do with Ultra sound and a child's potato? I think we should get back on topic....

Sid, you are right, but it wasn't Hotspur that started it: I too thought it was pretty dumb: tater tots are a type of potato (naturally) that is more like a deep fried potato patty. As for Sonic, you may get them one day, they are a chain that has spread to Texas and further east perhaps: It is like the old days "drive in" they have a large menu, car hops or at least an excuse for the same and sometimes you will find them on skates. The food is fair, the prices a little higher than Micky Ds but better and they play music. NMnita

[flag fan]

This is an interesting thread. The original question has to do with the business aspects of NCLA, not whether cruising in one of its ships is a good experience or not. Just based on what is posted in CC, I side with those who cite crew turn-over (not lazy, spoiled crew) as the problem, which is partly due to the hard work they go through as a result of understaffing (which is a cycle creating more turnover and more understaffing), partly due to poor working conditions (cramped quarters, not enough time off), partly due to inadequate pay/compensation, and partly due to wrong expectations. I was not aware of the start-up problems, but that could be the root the on-going problems. I think some of this can be remedied with higher fares that could be used for higher pay, but that would require advertising the NCLA ships. The generic NCL ads don't really get people to choose a Hawaii cruise over a land-based Hawaii vacation, and I think that is the group NCLA should target.

 

I am going on a Pride of Hawaii cruise next month and can't wait, so I hope the money problems are either over stated or quickly overcome. I think a cruise vacation in Hawaii is a great opportunity and I hope its available for years to come.

[Pusniski]

As with so many posts about the NCLA cruises in Hawaii, everything is negative. We cruised the POAL last year and had a great time--but encountered the problems that so many complain about. It IS annoying, since you have spent your hard earned money and vacation days-the key to enjoying these cruises are to relax and go with the flow. Accept the fact going in that you are going to have a wonderful time in paradise-but that not everything that you have come to expect as cruisers on other lines is going to be done to your expectations. Relax, you are on vacation. And then learn how to beat the NCLA system.

1. Long waits for diing room and buffets seem to be inevitable. So, eat early or late-do not go at prime times. Breakfast in the dining room seemed to go faster than fighting for a place to sit at the buffet.

2. We made a point of having a great lunch off of the ship each day. The islands are known for their wonderful cuisine--but it isn't served on the ship, so research out where you can make reservations and have a wonderful lunch, or stop at some really great funky places for real food. 3.Having a car is essential, taking the ships tours does not allow you to really experience Hawaii, it only lets you take a quick peek at the scenery. Driving in the islands is simple and the process of picking up and dropping off your car at the agencys doesn't take long at all. Having a car at your disposal allows YOU to take control of your vacation. You can eat off of the ship, you can see the islands, you can shop where YOU want. Somehow the problems on the ship don't seem so important when you know that tomorrow you will step off onto another beautiful island and be your own boss on how you spend your time. Remember, the Hawaii cruises can be had for some of the lowest fares, so plan on spending your savings for food off of the ship.

4. We had no problems with our cabin steward. Our cabn was made up each day, ice bucket filled, bathroom cleaned etc. No we did not see our steward, but he was there. He never came to introduce himself, but that didn't matter--I wasn't looking to make a lifelong friend. As long as the room was clean and neat thats all I cared about. Many of the posters complain about the lack of service, I think that many are just trying to say that they didn't enjoy the ammenities that other cruise lines offer.

5. Understand going in that this is NOT a Luxury cruise, It is a floating hotel that takes you to many wonderful places. You should expect some dining delays. Prepare for it, have some snacks in your room (so far they haven't banned snacks from being brought on board, only beverages), or order room service and have a little something so that you can put off going to the dining room until later.

6. Relax, relax, relax, you are on vacation. Simmer down. Change that attitude and you will have awonderful time.

7. NCLA is the cruise line for you if you are going to Hawaii to see the islands--if you are going for a magnificent cruise experience then shop around for another cruise line or another location for your vacation.

Even with the agrivations that we experienced last year--we are going again this year. Why? Easy. There is no other cruise line that covers so many islands., spends as much time in port instead of floating at sea, and does it in the one week time frame that most of us working people have for a vacation. Yes I am going in with open eyes, I will keep telling myself to relax, I will tell myself that eating on time and quickly isn't important--and I will ENJOY MYSELF!!

 

I had to say thanks for posting this. I've been so nervous with my decision to cruise rather than a land based Hawaiian vacation. We wanted to see too many of the sights on the different islands and this was a great way to do just that. It beats trying doing all those interisland flights! My husband is really digging in his heels, but he's coming around. I even have another couple joining us. I want to have a good time on the islands! I'm like you. My attention isn't on the ship activities as much. As long as I get breakfast and a few dinners without a bunch of hassle I'm pretty happy. I'd planned on eating in port as much as possible anyway. You've given some great suggestions and insight.

 

Thanks again!

[Tucker in Texas]

Their problem is hiring and retaining employees. The foreign crew members have a much different attitude on employment than US employees. They have never worked 40 hour weeks, had paid vacation, paid sick leave, union coverage, and other benefits. They also have much more motivation to keep their jobs--supporting family members with more money than they could ever get in their home countries. It is also very difficult for them to "walk off the job." They are far from home, the ship probably holds their passports. Americans can just say "see ya" and go on their merry way with hardly any reprocussions other than a bad job recommendation. Foreign crew members have absolutely no recourse if they decide they don't like the job. They have to work out their contract.

 

So, in order to pay the American workers the salaries they expect for the hours they are expected to work, and the work they are expected to do, they would have to charge much more money for the cruises more than the market would be willing to pay in most cases. The opporunities for on board revenue are much less than on other cruises to make up for the cheaper prices. No casino, lots of port time where people are off the ship and not in their bars, shops, etc.

 

As a side note, in 1991 I cruised on the Mississippi Queen. We got a deal we couldn't pass up--$500 per person for best available cabin. In a nutshell, I have had better maid service at Motel 6; better dining service at Denny's. Recommended tips were higher than Caribbean cruises. I felt sorry for those that had booked months in advance and paid thousands of dollars. It didn't take long to figure out why the service was so poor--American labor covered by union regulations. However, I felt my $500 was a good price but I didn't think it was worth a whole lot more than that.

 

So, when I get inquiries on the Hawaiian cruises, I tell them to treat the cruise strictly as roof over your head and transportation. If you get a few good meals out of it, good for you but plan on spending money on some meals ashore. This will not be a "cruise experience." However, the fact that you can unpack only once, you are in a lovely port every day is worth a lot more to me than a "cruise experience" under those circumstances. You can get a lot more in in seven days on a cruise than going from island to island on your own requiring airport waits, packing, unpacking, etc. I tell them to rent a car--you can get a weekly rate and pick up and drop off on each island--cheaper than ship's excursions and much more leisurely-- and, if they are really cash strapped, to pack picnic lunches as the beaches are free.

 

Tucker in Texas

[smeyer418]

Sid, you are right, but it wasn't Hotspur that started it: I too thought it was pretty dumb: tater tots are a type of potato (naturally) that is more like a deep fried potato patty. As for Sonic, you may get them one day, they are a chain that has spread to Texas and further east perhaps: It is like the old days "drive in" they have a large menu, car hops or at least an excuse for the same and sometimes you will find them on skates. The food is fair, the prices a little higher than Micky Ds but better and they play music. NMnita

 

Do you really think I didn't know :). My wife was born in Galveston...I have actually eaten in a Sonic in Louisiana....and tater tots are available at any supermarket....:)

[pog27]

I don't know a lot about NCLA but based on a search I did for an August vacation I'm planning I found the NCLA ships to be way overpriced. $3300 for a balcony cabin? That works out to almost $500 per night. You can book a 4 star resort in Hawaii for under $300. I know it doesn't include meals but on a cruise with no sea days and overnight stops it won't make up $200/day. For an A3 Courtyard Villa the price is almost $15,000. Compare that to $8,000 I paid for a Courtyard Villa on 9 night So Caribbean cruise I took on the Pearl earlier this month. The prices are outrageous. It looks like only 1 of the 8 A3s are actually booked, fewer than the number of A3s booked on a cruise I'm doing on the Jewel for Feb 08. So based on the limited information I have I would guess pricing is part of the problem. I must say I love the Courtyard Villas but it seems crazy to pay more than I did on the Pearl for a shorter cruise, with no sea days to take advantage of all the perks, and on a ship with a questionable reputation. The suites on the top of the ship along with the other deluxe suites are a cash cow for NCL but they must price them competitively or they won't get booked. The NCLA cruise prices in August are about the same as Alaska and Europe sailings. The difference is the Alaska and Europe cruises I've looked at are selling out while the NCLA bookings are wide open. Do the NCLA ships usually sail full? Do they give deep discounts close to sailing?

[beachchick]

pog27: We're pretty familiar with Hawaii, but I admit we don't know everything. Nevertheless, you would be hard pressed to find a four star resort for less than $300, except during "quiet" times (such as between Thanksgiving and Christmas or shortly after Labor Day, that sort of thing). In August? I seriously doubt you'd find any of the high-end resorts at "bargain" rates.

 

I do agree that pricing on NCLA is an issue though. OTOH, they have to play by the US labor and overtime laws, so that's bound to factor into it. OTOH again, when they do have specials, they can be excellent. As with most lines, those bargains are not going to be during peak periods like summer vacation times.

 

Kapuna: A 10 day cruise for $79 total? That's mind-boggling. Are you sure it wasn't a pricing error? I'd think they'd rather cruise with an empty cabin. All I can say is "wow"!

 

To everyone: I don't think that NCLA went "wrong" so much as they didn't really know what to expect and didn't anticipate some of the issues that have come up. There are things that definitely need to be addressed, but DH and I thoroughly enjoyed our PoH cruise last December. If anyone is interested, I wrote a detailed and possibly mind-numbingly extensive review:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=476505

 

beachchick

[Deck10 007]

That is 50% of the answer for you.

It is a completely different product. The name is almost the same, the management is the same but the difference is between night and day.

NCLA is a US flagged ship with an American crew. The ship regulations and certification is much stricter than other flag of convenience. The US crew work to US labour law and taxation. Then there is the union behind them.

NCL however are not US flagged and has an international crew. The crew is from third world countries. The pay is a small fraction of US pay, living conditions aboard is a world apart and NCL can work them till they drop.

But even without these differences there are legions of third world crew waiting for a chance to work on the ship whereas the Americans just wont touch these types of work on the ship.

[Masta Blasta]

Kapuna: A 10 day cruise for $79 total? That's mind-boggling. Are you sure it wasn't a pricing error? I'd think they'd rather cruise with an empty cabin. All I can say is "wow"!

 

I got that email as well, but it turns out they were talking about the prices of shore excursions, not the price of the trip.

[Heytoots]

:mad: Shame on the poster who called the kids who work at Sonic's idiots. The overwhelming majority are HS kids working after school, or college students having to work to pay for their education.

 

 

Also, I have sailed with NCL 14 times already, have left out money, my lap top, etc....and NEVER has anything been touched. The crew has been nothing but above board at all times, in all ways.

 

We are cruising on the POH this Sept, and I am only looking foward to the experience. You get what you give.....treat the crew like you would want to be treated, and you WILL have a wonderful vacation......

[halos]

I just don't get what the problem is with a two hour dinner. Are people so use to fast food that they can't have a relaxing meal. I spend time in Italy several years ago and the group I was with was taken out to dinner several times and dinner was a 3 to 4 hour event most nights.

 

Michael

 

I enjoy a long dinner as well. As a matter of fact I think that is the least amount of time I've spend on any cruise while eating in the dining room!

On our Celebrity cruise, we were leaving the table at 10:45 pm after an 8:00 start every night. I enjoyed this thoroughly!!! While on land, I enjoy a long dinner out too, although you have to go to a really, really good restaurant to experience this, because most like to usher you out quickly.

Isn't this what fine dining is about???? :confused:

[Don Haynes]

I don't know a lot about NCLA but based on a search I did for an August vacation I'm planning I found the NCLA ships to be way overpriced. $3300 for a balcony cabin? That works out to almost $500 per night. You can book a 4 star resort in Hawaii for under $300. I know it doesn't include meals but on a cruise with no sea days and overnight stops it won't make up $200/day. For an A3 Courtyard Villa the price is almost $15,000. Compare that to $8,000 I paid for a Courtyard Villa on 9 night So Caribbean cruise I took on the Pearl earlier this month. The prices are outrageous. It looks like only 1 of the 8 A3s are actually booked, fewer than the number of A3s booked on a cruise I'm doing on the Jewel for Feb 08. So based on the limited information I have I would guess pricing is part of the problem. I must say I love the Courtyard Villas but it seems crazy to pay more than I did on the Pearl for a shorter cruise, with no sea days to take advantage of all the perks, and on a ship with a questionable reputation. The suites on the top of the ship along with the other deluxe suites are a cash cow for NCL but they must price them competitively or they won't get booked. The NCLA cruise prices in August are about the same as Alaska and Europe sailings. The difference is the Alaska and Europe cruises I've looked at are selling out while the NCLA bookings are wide open. Do the NCLA ships usually sail full? Do they give deep discounts close to sailing?

 

Ninty percent of the cabins aboard are not suites. Its not fair to compare suites to regular hotel rooms, that is apples to oranges. Why not compare inside cabins to regular hotel rooms?

 

NCLA does not necessarily sell out the ships like NCL.. NCLA will drop fares only so much, and no lower. Therefore there are a few unsold cabins on NCLA ships.

 

Without the gambling revenue, which averages seven percent of NCL's revenues, NCLA won't sell the cabins below a certain price.

[SAYHEYRENEE]

I wonder how much truth is in the story about holding a job fair in Philly and not one person showed up.

 

 

I live in Philly. In the first of three sessions held that day, on the news there was 15 people who showed up and no one singed. I don't know how the rest of the day went.

 

This is what a local paper in Bucks County reported:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/homepage/20070322_Cruising_through_long_workdays.html

[cruisepal48]

I have to say that I had a wonderful time on the POH this month. I also didn't have to wait in the main dinining room. when we went we were seated right away. I did say I didn't mind sharing a table. I thought the american crew was great. And I agree that if you smile give compliments you will have a happy crew who will go out of their way for you. Positive attitude will give you a positive vacation:D

[flag fan]

I don't understand why NCLA is recruiting and training in Maryland instead of in Hawaii. Tourism is a (the) major business in Hawaii and I would think there would be a large pool of experienced hotel employees available that might want to try something different and might appreciate the chance to regularly visit other islands. I also don't see why NCLA doesn't contract for services to be provided from an on-shore workforce. Just bring in a new set of housekeepers at each port. No need to pay room and board (and take up space that could be used for more passengers of revenue-generating activities, like bars or shops). Since the "automatic tip" is really a service charge, just spread it equally among the on-shore staff or use it for on-ship staff. I get the impression that a lot of cruisers like knowing who their stewards are, but one doesn't at a hotel and one doesn't get to know one's waiters under a freestyle dining experience as one does in regular set-seating dining cruises. I would think use of onshore facilities for some services would also be popular with the politicians that supported putting a U.S. flag on a cruise line--more work for local workers, rather than bringing in workers from the mainland. NCLA needs to be a little more creative in finding ways to improve service while keeping costs low.

[mikedw]

I don't understand why NCLA is recruiting and training in Maryland instead of in Hawaii. Tourism is a (the) major business in Hawaii and I would think there would be a large pool of experienced hotel employees available that might want to try something different and might appreciate the chance to regularly visit other islands. I also don't see why NCLA doesn't contract for services to be provided from an on-shore workforce. Just bring in a new set of housekeepers at each port. No need to pay room and board (and take up space that could be used for more passengers of revenue-generating activities, like bars or shops). Since the "automatic tip" is really a service charge, just spread it equally among the on-shore staff or use it for on-ship staff. I get the impression that a lot of cruisers like knowing who their stewards are, but one doesn't at a hotel and one doesn't get to know one's waiters under a freestyle dining experience as one does in regular set-seating dining cruises. I would think use of onshore facilities for some services would also be popular with the politicians that supported putting a U.S. flag on a cruise line--more work for local workers, rather than bringing in workers from the mainland. NCLA needs to be a little more creative in finding ways to improve service while keeping costs low.

 

The Seafarers International Union training campus is located in Piney Pt., Maryland. Since the crew are SIU members, they have to go through the school there. It's a pretty big place and NCL crews are just a small part of who they train there.