Passenger services act

[glrounds]

What is the US goverment going to do? They won't be at the docks in Vancover saying these people can"t get on the ship. Are they going to say they can't get off the ship in Hawaii? The nonUS flagged ships cruiseing around Hawaii used to sail to some island for a day to get around this rule.

 

I'm sure you meant "foreign-flagged ships" :)

Yes, Fanning Island.

An atrocious waste of fuel and time to satisfy an archaic law, originally designed to "protect" the American shipping industry. Another example of the futility and ignorance of protectionist legislation.

[Cuizer2]

I'm sure you meant "foreign-flagged ships" :)

 

Yes, Fanning Island.

 

An atrocious waste of fuel and time to satisfy an archaic law, originally designed to "protect" the American shipping industry. Another example of the futility and ignorance of protectionist legislation.

 

Really? The only way I would cruise Hawaii is if I could go to Fanning Island.

[glrounds]

Really? The only way I would cruise Hawaii is if I could go to Fanning Island.

 

Yes, really.

From the reviews I saw many paxs objected to this diversion from the Hawaiian Islands, but realized it was necessary. I was heartened to see, however, many paxs realizing this was a "poor" country, took pencils, tablets, books, etc. on this cruise to deliver to the schools on this island. Was appreciated by many of the locals.:)

[Cuizer2]

Yes, really.

 

From the reviews I saw many paxs objected to this diversion from the Hawaiian Islands, but realized it was necessary. I was heartened to see, however, many paxs realizing this was a "poor" country, took pencils, tablets, books, etc. on this cruise to deliver to the schools on this island. Was appreciated by many of the locals.:)

 

As I said, the only way I would take a Hawaiian cruise is if it went to Fanning Island.

[teacherman]

We are trying to do Rhapsody of the Seas next September: first cruise is Seattle-Alaska-Vancouver and second cruise is Vancouver-Hawaii. After reading this board, I contacted RCCL, asked, and a supervisor told me it is "NO PROBLEM" and not a violation of the law. So..now what????

[Pistol Packin Mama]

Well just remember to save this thread.:o

I did!!

 

We are trying to do Rhapsody of the Seas next September: first cruise is Seattle-Alaska-Vancouver and second cruise is Vancouver-Hawaii. After reading this board, I contacted RCCL, asked, and a supervisor told me it is "NO PROBLEM" and not a violation of the law. So..now what????

 

I've hesitated to put the reply I got directly from the rules department, but since the problem persists I will. That way you can contact them direct, get an answer and pass it on to Carnival. That is what I did.

 

Ms. Perry,

Please see Mr. Vereb’s response below. Based on the information you provided to me in your emails and our telephone conversation of yesterday, the itinerary consisting of embarking in Seattle, Washington, stopping in Vancouver, Canada to temporarily go ashore, getting back on the same vessel in Vancouver, and then proceeding the Honolulu, Hawaii where you will disembark is a violation of the Passenger Vessel Services Act.

Anthony L. Shurn

Cargo Security, Carriers, and Immigration Branch

Regulations and Rulings

Office of International Trade

U.S. Customs and Border Protection

202-325-0218

 

From: VEREB, GLEN E

Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:50 AM

To: SHURN, ANTHONY L

Subject: RE: I have book two cruises with CCL. First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (ca... [incident: 091024-000055]

 

Tony,

If we are talking about two separate vessels on two separate voyages (Seattle-Alaska-Vancouver) and (Vancouver-Hawaii), then I agree, no violation. If this is the same vessel, then I disagree. Regardless of how they ticket it or whether the passengers clear CBP in Vancouver, if it is just one vessel, then we consider the passengers to have embarked in Seattle and disembarked in Hawaii, a clear violation of the PVSA.

Glen E. Vereb, Esq.

Chief, Cargo Security, Carriers and Immigration Branch

Regulations and Rulings

 

Office of International Trade

 

U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Department of Homeland Security

 

Mint Annex

 

799 9th Street, N.W.

 

Washington, D.C. 20229-1179

 

202-325-0030 (phone)

 

202-325-0152 (fax)

 

glen.vereb@dhs.gov

 

 

Hope that helps. Feel free to email me if you have any further questions. I forwarded this to Carnival, and then I was told by Carnival that I was correct and it was a violation of the PVSA.

 

[Pistol Packin Mama]

I did!!

 

 

 

I've hesitated to put the reply I got directly from the rules department, but since the problem persists I will. That way you can contact them direct, get an answer and pass it on to Carnival. That is what I did.

 

Ms. Perry,

Please see Mr. Vereb’s response below. Based on the information you provided to me in your emails and our telephone conversation of yesterday, the itinerary consisting of embarking in Seattle, Washington, stopping in Vancouver, Canada to temporarily go ashore, getting back on the same vessel in Vancouver, and then proceeding the Honolulu, Hawaii where you will disembark is a violation of the Passenger Vessel Services Act.

Anthony L. Shurn

Cargo Security, Carriers, and Immigration Branch

Regulations and Rulings

Office of International Trade

U.S. Customs and Border Protection

202-325-0218

 

 

From: VEREB, GLEN E

Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:50 AM

To: SHURN, ANTHONY L

Subject: RE: I have book two cruises with CCL. First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (ca... [incident: 091024-000055]

 

 

Tony,

If we are talking about two separate vessels on two separate voyages (Seattle-Alaska-Vancouver) and (Vancouver-Hawaii), then I agree, no violation. If this is the same vessel, then I disagree. Regardless of how they ticket it or whether the passengers clear CBP in Vancouver, if it is just one vessel, then we consider the passengers to have embarked in Seattle and disembarked in Hawaii, a clear violation of the PVSA.

 

Glen E. Vereb, Esq.

Chief, Cargo Security, Carriers and Immigration Branch

Regulations and Rulings

 

Office of International Trade

 

U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Department of Homeland Security

 

Mint Annex

 

799 9th Street, N.W.

 

Washington, D.C. 20229-1179

 

202-325-0030 (phone)

 

202-325-0152 (fax)

 

glen.vereb@dhs.gov

 

 

 

 

Hope that helps. Feel free to email me if you have any further questions. I forwarded this to Carnival, and then I was told by Carnival that I was correct and it was a violation of the PVSA.

 

Took me so long to get it pasted & posted, thought I'd do it again.

[reggierail]

We are trying to do Rhapsody of the Seas next September: first cruise is Seattle-Alaska-Vancouver and second cruise is Vancouver-Hawaii. After reading this board, I contacted RCCL, asked, and a supervisor told me it is "NO PROBLEM" and not a violation of the law. So..now what????

 

Here we go again. Read this thread then tell me which part of it being disallowed don't you understand. Your Rhapsody itinerary is exactly the same as this one. Many people at Carnival said this was OK but it turned out that it wasn't.

 

Reggie :rolleyes:

[aussie2324]

We are trying to do Rhapsody of the Seas next September: first cruise is Seattle-Alaska-Vancouver and second cruise is Vancouver-Hawaii. After reading this board, I contacted RCCL, asked, and a supervisor told me it is "NO PROBLEM" and not a violation of the law. So..now what????

 

 

What dates are you planning on ? We were caught in exactly the same situation as you would have read. Every-one at CC told us the exact same thing.It took months of emails and untolled stress to FINALLY find out this itinerary was in violation of the act. If it was not for Reggierail we would have been in a real mess. Again Reggie thankyou:)So in the end we had to cancel one of the cruises so Alaska had to go, but we were lucky enough to find out that Celebrity has the same itinerary going but 2 day's earlier on the Mercury. So now we do Alaska on the Mercury 5th sept 2010 round trip out of Vancouver have 2 day's in Vancouver then on the 14th sept we change to the Carnival Spirit and go onto Hawaii.

[reggierail]

(It looks like Carnival has seen the light. LOL)

 

D. Passenger Services Act.

Travel Agency agrees to comply with the Passenger Services Act which, among other things, does not permit a foreign flagged ship to transport guests between U.S. ports (i.e. embark in one U.S. port and permanently disembark in another) CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES Posted August 1, 2010 TRAVEL AGENCY POLICY page 14 of 14

without a call to a distant foreign port. Travel Agency understands and agrees that combining two cruises on the same vessel that results in an embarkation and disembarkation in two different U.S. ports without an intervening stop at a distant foreign port is not permissible. Travel Agency understands and acknowledges fines are imposed by Customs and Border Protection for violations of this law.

Travel Agency understands and acknowledges that if the result of a combined itinerary is that the guest will have embarked and disembarked in two different U.S. ports without an intervening stop at a distant port, a violation occurs regardless of whether the link code is placed on the booking. Travel Agency agrees that even if the guests disembark completely from the first voyage and then return to the pier to embark the second voyage, this is a prohibited voyage, unless the vessel calls at a distant foreign port. Travel Agency agrees to pay all fines and penalties imposed on Carnival for every violation by Travel Agency of the Passenger Services Act.

[Cuizer2]

(It looks like Carnival has seen the light. LOL)

 

D. Passenger Services Act.

Travel Agency agrees to comply with the Passenger Services Act which, among other things, does not permit a foreign flagged ship to transport guests between U.S. ports (i.e. embark in one U.S. port and permanently disembark in another) CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES Posted August 1, 2010 TRAVEL AGENCY POLICY page 14 of 14

without a call to a distant foreign port. Travel Agency understands and agrees that combining two cruises on the same vessel that results in an embarkation and disembarkation in two different U.S. ports without an intervening stop at a distant foreign port is not permissible. Travel Agency understands and acknowledges fines are imposed by Customs and Border Protection for violations of this law.

Travel Agency understands and acknowledges that if the result of a combined itinerary is that the guest will have embarked and disembarked in two different U.S. ports without an intervening stop at a distant port, a violation occurs regardless of whether the link code is placed on the booking. Travel Agency agrees that even if the guests disembark completely from the first voyage and then return to the pier to embark the second voyage, this is a prohibited voyage, unless the vessel calls at a distant foreign port. Travel Agency agrees to pay all fines and penalties imposed on Carnival for every violation by Travel Agency of the Passenger Services Act.

 

John Heald, said it was okay, so it must be okay. :rolleyes: Just ask all the posters that pointed this out. :p

[Pistol Packin Mama]

(It looks like Carnival has seen the light. LOL)

 

D. Passenger Services Act.

Travel Agency agrees to comply with the Passenger Services Act which, among other things, does not permit a foreign flagged ship to transport guests between U.S. ports (i.e. embark in one U.S. port and permanently disembark in another) CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES Posted August 1, 2010 TRAVEL AGENCY POLICY page 14 of 14

without a call to a distant foreign port. Travel Agency understands and agrees that combining two cruises on the same vessel that results in an embarkation and disembarkation in two different U.S. ports without an intervening stop at a distant foreign port is not permissible. Travel Agency understands and acknowledges fines are imposed by Customs and Border Protection for violations of this law.

Travel Agency understands and acknowledges that if the result of a combined itinerary is that the guest will have embarked and disembarked in two different U.S. ports without an intervening stop at a distant port, a violation occurs regardless of whether the link code is placed on the booking. Travel Agency agrees that even if the guests disembark completely from the first voyage and then return to the pier to embark the second voyage, this is a prohibited voyage, unless the vessel calls at a distant foreign port. Travel Agency agrees to pay all fines and penalties imposed on Carnival for every violation by Travel Agency of the Passenger Services Act.

 

Carnival is still passing the buck, if it is a violation, they shouldn't allow it at all, and not allow people or TA's to book it. Needless to say, I still think it is a antiquated rule.:(

[Koval]

:D not sure, because I was 1/2 asleep,

but didn't the Pres. lift the silly rule (70 days to late in IMO)

for the Oil Clean up...

Would that make it possible for a B2B to happen again for the Spirit to Sail out

of Seattle, to Alaska, then out of Vanc. BC (Not as foreign as Ensenada I guess:rolleyes:) to Hawaii?

This could be a loop hole for Carnival????

I didn't hear if it was only for the Gulf though.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

:D not sure, because I was 1/2 asleep,

but didn't the Pres. lift the silly rule (70 days to late in IMO)

for the Oil Clean up...

Would that make it possible for a B2B to happen again for the Spirit to Sail out

of Seattle, to Alaska, then out of Vanc. BC (Not as foreign as Ensenada I guess:rolleyes:) to Hawaii?

This could be a loop hole for Carnival????

I didn't hear if it was only for the Gulf though.

 

That would be an interesting legal question, but I bet it only applies to the Gulf Oil spill, not us lowly cruisers.

[Cuizer2]

Great, we get one wrong rumor cleared up and someone decides to start another.

[Cuizer2]

Carnival is still passing the buck, if it is a violation, they shouldn't allow it at all, and not allow people or TA's to book it. Needless to say, I still think it is a antiquated rule.:(

 

Carnival itself doesn't understand the rule (read John Heald's blog). So how do you expect Carnival to "not allow it"?

[kytourguy]

We recently booked a one-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on the Emerald Princess, followed by a 5 day cruise on the same ship from Vancouver to Los Angeles. Princess accepted our booking and sent us a confirmation - followed by a phone call several days later telling us that we could take one cruise or the other, but not both - thanks to the Passenger Services Act.

 

The Act itself seems extremely silly, but Princess' mis-handling of our situation was even sillier. To compensate us for either airline change fees, or an extra night's stay in Seattle, added meals that we would have enjoyed onboard the Emerald, Greyhound bus fare between Seattle and Vancouver, etc. - we were offered $150 each in shipboard credit!

 

We cancelled the trip.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

We recently booked a one-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on the Emerald Princess, followed by a 5 day cruise on the same ship from Vancouver to Los Angeles. Princess accepted our booking and sent us a confirmation - followed by a phone call several days later telling us that we could take one cruise or the other, but not both - thanks to the Passenger Services Act.

 

The Act itself seems extremely silly, but Princess' mis-handling of our situation was even sillier. To compensate us for either airline change fees, or an extra night's stay in Seattle, added meals that we would have enjoyed onboard the Emerald, Greyhound bus fare between Seattle and Vancouver, etc. - we were offered $150 each in shipboard credit!

 

We cancelled the trip.

 

Had the same thing happen on Carnival, had to choose between the Alaska cruise and the Hawaian cruse. You are right, it is an antiquated rule and causes a lot of paroblems:(

[Cuizer2]

Had the same thing happen on Carnival, had to choose between the Alaska cruise and the Hawaian cruse. You are right, it is an antiquated rule and causes a lot of paroblems:(

 

It is only a problem for the people unfamiliar with the law - such as the reservation clerks that work for the cruise lines.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

It is only a problem for the people unfamiliar with the law - such as the reservation clerks that work for the cruise lines.

 

 

It is more than just the reservation clerks, I checked with an Executive VP of Carnival and he assured me that it was fine. It was considered two separate trips, it went all the way to the top. They cancelled a bunch of people who were going. Interestingly enough, there was a contingency on the Alaska trip from Austrailia that were doing both legs of the trip.

[bythehex]

The thing that makes it all legal is that there are two different cruises, both of which do not by themselves present a problem. If there were just one 19 day cruise then it would not be legal.

 

However, the B2B passengers will end their first cruise, and will have to disembark. Their luggage can remain, but they will be booted off the ship. End of cruise.

 

Now fast forward a few minutes and begin the next cruise. You embark like everyone else (but you'll be first in line).

 

Two cruises not one. No problem with the laws.

 

Exactly! Everyone seems to be missing the facts here. These are TWO SEPARATE CRUISES. Even if they're booked on the same ship again, and get on five minutes later, each cruise is a separate cruise and therefore, they would NOT be in violation of the law. It's not one long continuous cruise. It's two cruises. One ends...and the the OTHER one begins. :rolleyes:

[oceanseagle12]

Did you read the rest of this thread? It is a rather old one, and the question has been resolved. That was the interpretation that Carnival was trying to use at the time, but in the end it was determined to be incorrect.

The bottom line- it is a violation for the same foreign flagged ship to transport between two US ports, without an intervening stop at a distant foreign port. The law applies to ships, not cruises, sailings or itineraries. So it is irrelevant whether it is one sailing, or a back-to-back.

 

See post #205.

 

In the end, I agree that the law is silly and antiquated. But that is the current law.

[Cuizer2]

Exactly! Everyone seems to be missing the facts here. These are TWO SEPARATE CRUISES. Even if they're booked on the same ship again, and get on five minutes later, each cruise is a separate cruise and therefore, they would NOT be in violation of the law. It's not one long continuous cruise. It's two cruises. One ends...and the the OTHER one begins. :rolleyes:

 

Both you and Salty Dingo are WRONG!

 

The PVSA does not apply per cruise, it applies per ship. If it is the same ship then it IS a violation of the PVSA.

 

Instead of making a fool out of yourself, why don't you go back to post number 205 and educate yourself.

[bythehex]

You need to educate yourself on manners

[reggierail]

You need to educate yourself on manners

 

And you need to educate yourself on maritime law and how it applies to the PVSA. It is due to fools like you that think they know of what they speak that can cause a lot of problems for others that take their faulty interpretation as fact. I would rather be rude and save someone a lot of grief and financial hardship than be a fool spouting nonsense.