Passenger services act

[kujobie]

So all these people who have had this same b2b itinerary booked, one of whom had 11 cabins, and had the cruise force them to cancel. If this is allowed, how do you explain that? Do cruise lines like to cancel people's cruises for no reason? There is a link to an NCL thread posted avove. People are attempting to do the exact same thing and are being denied.

[reggierail]

The above is 100% mis-information. The two seperate cruises are allowed.;)

 

They are most definitely not allowed. If you don't know what you're talking about, you should do more listening and less spoutiing off.

I hope you are still here to eat crow when the poop hits the fan.:mad:

[Cuizer2]

The above is 100% mis-information. The two seperate cruises are allowed.;)

You are wrong. Staying on the same ship going from one US port to another is a violation of the PVSA. It does not matter if it is one or two cruises.

[Cuizer2]

So all these people who have had this same b2b itinerary booked, one of whom had 11 cabins, and had the cruise force them to cancel. If this is allowed, how do you explain that? Do cruise lines like to cancel people's cruises for no reason? There is a link to an NCL thread posted avove. People are attempting to do the exact same thing and are being denied.

 

That is what several of us are trying to warn these people about. However, there are several idiots who have no clue, yet post that because it is two cruises, or because Carnival "allows" it that it is okay.

[oncruisecontrol]

You are wrong. Staying on the same ship going from one US port to another is a violation of the PVSA. It does not matter if it is one or two cruises.

 

 

Can someone please explain PVSA, and why such a law is even on the books?

[Cuizer2]

Smeyer418 can do a better job of explaining the PVSA than I can. However, basically it is 1886 protectionism legislation. It is designed to protect the American maritime industry. It basically says ...

 

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $300 for each passenger so transported and landed.

 

Here is a link to an article that goes into greater detail ...

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/passenger-cruise.htm

 

Here is a article from Cruise Critic regarding the PVSA ...

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=2397

 

Here is a thread on CC that discusses the PVSA ...

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=776977

 

Here is an article discussing the impact of the PVSA ...

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n26_v13/ai_19601328/

 

This article discusses a real life experience ...

 

http://www.expertcruiser.com/tag/passenger-vessel-services-act/

 

More articles discussing the PVSA ...

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5QlSKl3oFEC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=passenger+vessel+services+act&source=bl&ots=aqY5YPhDre&sig=R_W8LOozLSGm5BUDz4cQrxYtyZg&hl=en&ei=tIzUSsjeJIWesgPnwK3MCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBgQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=passenger%20vessel%20services%20act&f=false

 

http://www.cruiseco.com/Resources/jones_act.htm

 

http://www.trans-inst.org/passenger-cruise-industry.html

 

There are ways around this. One is a stop at a distant foreign port. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America.

 

However, some people think that being on one ship for two cruises is another way around the PVSA. IT IS NOT. The rule applies to the ship, not to the number of cruises.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

Smeyer418 can do a better job of explaining the PVSA than I can. However, basically it is 1886 protectionism legislation. It is designed to protect the American maritime industry. It basically says ...

 

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $300 for each passenger so transported and landed.

 

Here is a link to an article that goes into greater detail ...

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/passenger-cruise.htm

 

Here is a article from Cruise Critic regarding the PVSA ...

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=2397

 

Here is a thread on CC that discusses the PVSA ...

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=776977

 

Here is an article discussing the impact of the PVSA ...

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n26_v13/ai_19601328/

 

This article discusses a real life experience ...

 

http://www.expertcruiser.com/tag/passenger-vessel-services-act/

 

More articles discussing the PVSA ...

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5QlSKl3oFEC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=passenger+vessel+services+act&source=bl&ots=aqY5YPhDre&sig=R_W8LOozLSGm5BUDz4cQrxYtyZg&hl=en&ei=tIzUSsjeJIWesgPnwK3MCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBgQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=passenger%20vessel%20services%20act&f=false

 

http://www.cruiseco.com/Resources/jones_act.htm

 

http://www.trans-inst.org/passenger-cruise-industry.html

 

There are ways around this. One is a stop at a distant foreign port. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America.

 

However, some people think that being on one ship for two cruises is another way around the PVSA. IT IS NOT. The rule applies to the ship, not to the number of cruises.

Great info. A Carnival Service Rep just passed this on up the line. She even knew about the fine, and asked if I would be willing to pay the $300 fine myself. I said "no way", I would like an answer in writing with assurances that Carnival would pick up the fine if they later decided it was a violatation We shall see.

[reggierail]

Great info. A Carnival Service Rep just passed this on up the line. She even knew about the fine, and asked if I would be willing to pay the $300 fine myself. I said "no way", I would like an answer in writing with assurances that Carnival would pick up the fine if they later decided it was a violatation We shall see.

 

It seems that Carnival is finally realizing that there might be a problem. I would need in writing from Carnival that they will assume all responsibility for any fines or changes to booking because of the PSVA before I would book someone on both of these cruises.

It's better to get this worked out now rather than a week or 2 before sail date. :eek:

Reggie :D

[Pistol Packin Mama]

I'm not denying it. I am saying the Mr. Nekvasil has interpreted the rule. However, he and his Maritime Cabotage Task Force does not enforce the rule. The CBP does, and the CBP does not interpret the rule the same way that Mr. Nekvasil does.

 

Guess we are still working on an answer here. What is the CBP?

[Cuizer2]

Guess we are still working on an answer here. What is the CBP?

Customs and Boarder Protection.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

Customs and Boarder Protection.

Thanks, has anyone contacted them re the issue?

[aussie2324]

Me Me Me I have,

 

OKAY I have contacted CBP and here is their response :eek:

 

Subject: I have book two cruises with CCL. First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (ca...Product: Transportation/Carrier Issues

Jones ActCategory: Travelers

Tourism/ResidencySubmitted: 10/24/2009 07:49 PMLast Updated: 10/26/2009 04:06 PMStatus: Solved Discussion Thread Response (Mark)10/26/2009 04:06 PM This will not violate the PVSA since you are going on two separate voyages and will clear CBP in between the trips. I hope this information helps and that you have a good vacation.

 

 

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number 703-526-4200 and speak with a Public Information Officer. Our hours of operation are Monday thru Friday from 8:30am-5:00pm Eastern Time.

 

Also from the Maritime Cabotage Task Force.

Q.

I have book two cruises with CCL.

First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (canada) 9/7/2010

Second is Vancouver (Canada) to Hawaii 9/14/2010

CCL say that it is allowed as they are two separate cruises and we are getting off in Vancouver (canada)to be processed through customs and then have to check in for the second leg.

And because of this we are not violating the the Passenger Services Act. Please help. I know there are quite a few other people who have booked the same cruises. But there are a couple of people who state they know the law and these cruises are breeching the PVSA

A.

Those who are telling you this is a violation of the PVSA (the Jones Act only governs merchandise) are in error. When you disembark in Vancouver, you will have severed your connection to the vessel, so the voyage will be deemed to be completed. The trip to Hawaii is a separate and distinct voyage.

MCTF does not provide legal counsel, but this is pretty straight-forward based on the information you provided.

Hope this helps.

Glen Nekvasil

Maritime Cabotage Task Force

Can we get any plainer than this or do you want more. I have about 12 emails if you want them. The phone # is above if you STILL don't take this as the final answer. I don't know why you did not do this yourself in the first place Or did you :eek:

[Cuizer2]

Me Me Me I have,

 

OKAY I have contacted CBP and here is their response :eek:

 

Subject: I have book two cruises with CCL. First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (ca...Product: Transportation/Carrier Issues

Jones ActCategory: Travelers

Tourism/ResidencySubmitted: 10/24/2009 07:49 PMLast Updated: 10/26/2009 04:06 PMStatus: Solved Discussion Thread Response (Mark)10/26/2009 04:06 PM This will not violate the PVSA since you are going on two separate voyages and will clear CBP in between the trips. I hope this information helps and that you have a good vacation.

 

 

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number 703-526-4200 and speak with a Public Information Officer. Our hours of operation are Monday thru Friday from 8:30am-5:00pm Eastern Time.

 

Also from the Maritime Cabotage Task Force.

Q.

I have book two cruises with CCL.

First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (canada) 9/7/2010

Second is Vancouver (Canada) to Hawaii 9/14/2010

CCL say that it is allowed as they are two separate cruises and we are getting off in Vancouver (canada)to be processed through customs and then have to check in for the second leg.

And because of this we are not violating the the Passenger Services Act. Please help. I know there are quite a few other people who have booked the same cruises. But there are a couple of people who state they know the law and these cruises are breeching the PVSA

A.

Those who are telling you this is a violation of the PVSA (the Jones Act only governs merchandise) are in error. When you disembark in Vancouver, you will have severed your connection to the vessel, so the voyage will be deemed to be completed. The trip to Hawaii is a separate and distinct voyage.

 

MCTF does not provide legal counsel, but this is pretty straight-forward based on the information you provided.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Glen Nekvasil

Maritime Cabotage Task Force

 

Can we get any plainer than this or do you want more. I have about 12 emails if you want them. The phone # is above if you STILL don't take this as the final answer. I don't know why you did not do this yourself in the first place Or did you :eek:

 

Mr. Nekvasil is not with the CBP and is providing you with incorrect information. You will be in for a very rude surprise shortly before your cruise begins. And by then it will be too late to do anything about it.

 

If you want to contact the correct people, write to the address at the end of the link below ...

 

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/aprqtr/pdf/19cfr4.80a.pdf

[aussie2324]

Read again.

 

As I said I contacted the CBP or US Customs and Border Protection this is their reply.

OKAY I have contacted CBP and here is their response :eek:

Subject:I have book two cruises with CCL.

First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (canada) 9/7/2010

Second is Vancouver (Canada) to Hawaii 9/14/2010

CCL say that it is allowed as they are two separate cruises and we are getting off in Vancouver (canada)to be processed through customs and then have to check in for the second leg.

And because of this we are not violating the the Passenger Services Act. Please help. I know there are quite a few other people who have booked the same cruises. But there are a couple of people who state they know the law and these cruises are breeching the PVSA

(ca...Product: Transportation/Carrier Issues

Jones ActCategory: Travelers

Tourism/ResidencySubmitted: 10/24/2009 07:49 PMLast Updated: 10/26/2009 04:06 PMStatus: Solved Discussion Thread Response (Mark)10/26/2009 04:06 PM This will not violate the PVSA since you are going on two separate voyages and will clear CBP in between the trips. I hope this information helps and that you have a good vacation.

 

 

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number :mad:

[Goofyisme]

Read again.

 

As I said I contacted the CBP or US Customs and Border Protection this is their reply.

OKAY I have contacted CBP and here is their response :eek:

Subject:I have book two cruises with CCL.

First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (canada) 9/7/2010

Second is Vancouver (Canada) to Hawaii 9/14/2010

CCL say that it is allowed as they are two separate cruises and we are getting off in Vancouver (canada)to be processed through customs and then have to check in for the second leg.

And because of this we are not violating the the Passenger Services Act. Please help. I know there are quite a few other people who have booked the same cruises. But there are a couple of people who state they know the law and these cruises are breeching the PVSA

(ca...Product: Transportation/Carrier Issues

Jones ActCategory: Travelers

Tourism/ResidencySubmitted: 10/24/2009 07:49 PMLast Updated: 10/26/2009 04:06 PMStatus: Solved Discussion Thread Response (Mark)10/26/2009 04:06 PM This will not violate the PVSA since you are going on two separate voyages and will clear CBP in between the trips. I hope this information helps and that you have a good vacation.

 

 

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number :mad:

 

I have one thing that concerns me with this response and that is that I do not believe you will be clearing CBP in the port of Vancouver, but will be clearing Canadian officials. Just a small point, but the devil is in the details in matters such as this.

[Cuizer2]

Read again.

 

As I said I contacted the CBP or US Customs and Border Protection this is their reply.

OKAY I have contacted CBP and here is their response :eek:

Subject:I have book two cruises with CCL.

First is Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (canada) 9/7/2010

Second is Vancouver (Canada) to Hawaii 9/14/2010

CCL say that it is allowed as they are two separate cruises and we are getting off in Vancouver (canada)to be processed through customs and then have to check in for the second leg.

And because of this we are not violating the the Passenger Services Act. Please help. I know there are quite a few other people who have booked the same cruises. But there are a couple of people who state they know the law and these cruises are breeching the PVSA

(ca...Product: Transportation/Carrier Issues

Jones ActCategory: Travelers

Tourism/ResidencySubmitted: 10/24/2009 07:49 PMLast Updated: 10/26/2009 04:06 PMStatus: Solved Discussion Thread Response (Mark)10/26/2009 04:06 PM This will not violate the PVSA since you are going on two separate voyages and will clear CBP in between the trips. I hope this information helps and that you have a good vacation.

 

 

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number :mad:

 

Then the person you contacted does not understand the PVSA. Take a look at this thread ...

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=21251347#post21251347

 

The same thing is going to happen to you.

[reggierail]

Can we get any plainer than this or do you want more. I have about 12 emails if you want them. The phone # is above if you STILL don't take this as the final answer. I don't know why you did not do this yourself in the first place Or did you :eek:

 

No I didn't, but then I'm not booked on the back to back and don't have anyone booked through me on both cruises. I have no interest in this matter except to possibly prevent you from going through the problems I went through when my B2B on NCL was not allowed.

 

The question is still there about why several instances have arisen that involved B2B cruises from one US port to a different US port without a stop in a distant foriegn port being disallowed. There are several threads that substantiate this fact. If the answer you were given was correct, there would have been no problem with any of those B2B cruises either. :confused::confused:

[salty dingo]

Your first cruise ends in Vancouver. You disembark with your bags, clear customs and exit the building, just like everyone else.

 

And, just like every other passenger on the Vancouver to Hawaii leg, you check in, go back through security, and eventually re-board.

 

You are NOT on B2B. You have two separate cruises with two separate booking numbers, and quite possibly two separate cabins.

 

There is no way anyone with a sane mind is going to have a problem with this, or by any stretch argue that it violates the PVSA. Yes, some will argue anyway but it is just hot air.

 

Now, if you were planning to leave your stuff packed neatly in closets, and do the quick B2b un-board and re-board, you may have a problem with that. But you did not want to do that anyway, did you?

[aussie2324]

Your first cruise ends in Vancouver. You disembark with your bags, clear customs and exit the building, just like everyone else.

 

And, just like every other passenger on the Vancouver to Hawaii leg, you check in, go back through security, and eventually re-board.

 

You are NOT on B2B. You have two separate cruises with two separate booking numbers, and quite possibly two separate cabins.

 

There is no way anyone with a sane mind is going to have a problem with this, or by any stretch argue that it violates the PVSA. Yes, some will argue anyway but it is just hot air.

 

Now, if you were planning to leave your stuff packed neatly in closets, and do the quick B2b un-board and re-board, you may have a problem with that. But you did not want to do that anyway, did you?

 

Thankyou,

 

I have 19 emails here saying exactly the same thing. They wanted proof from the CBP which I posted but because the answer is not what they wanted to hear, this discussion is obviously never going to end.

[Cuizer2]

Your first cruise ends in Vancouver. You disembark with your bags, clear customs and exit the building, just like everyone else.

 

And, just like every other passenger on the Vancouver to Hawaii leg, you check in, go back through security, and eventually re-board.

 

You are NOT on B2B. You have two separate cruises with two separate booking numbers, and quite possibly two separate cabins.

 

There is no way anyone with a sane mind is going to have a problem with this, or by any stretch argue that it violates the PVSA. Yes, some will argue anyway but it is just hot air.

 

Now, if you were planning to leave your stuff packed neatly in closets, and do the quick B2b un-board and re-board, you may have a problem with that. But you did not want to do that anyway, did you?

 

If it is on the same ship it is a violation of the PVSA. I don't know how I can make it any simpler for you to understand. The law applies to the ship, not to the cruise. One foreign ship, two different US ports, no stop at a distant foreign port = PVSA violation.

 

Read this thread ... http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=21251347#post21251347

[Cuizer2]

Thankyou,

 

I have 19 emails here saying exactly the same thing. They wanted proof from the CBP which I posted but because the answer is not what they wanted to hear, this discussion is obviously never going to end.

 

It will when you get the call saying you cannot take these two cruises back to back.

[oceanseagle12]

No I didn't, but then I'm not booked on the back to back and don't have anyone booked through me on both cruises. I have no interest in this matter except to possibly prevent you from going through the problems I went through when my B2B on NCL was not allowed.

 

The question is still there about why several instances have arisen that involved B2B cruises from one US port to a different US port without a stop in a distant foriegn port being disallowed. There are several threads that substantiate this fact. If the answer you were given was correct, there would have been no problem with any of those B2B cruises either. :confused::confused:

 

 

Could it be because the cruise line is interpreting it differently?

[reggierail]

 

There is no way anyone with a sane mind is going to have a problem with this, or by any stretch argue that it violates the PVSA. Yes, some will argue anyway but it is just hot air.

 

 

So, now I'm insane or stupid for being concerned about this situation?

What makes you the expert you obviously think you are? What form of hot air are you spewing forth? Get a life and think about how you like your crow that you will be eating.

[reggierail]

Thankyou,

 

I have 19 emails here saying exactly the same thing. They wanted proof from the CBP which I posted but because the answer is not what they wanted to hear, this discussion is obviously never going to end.

 

Good luck, I'm sorry for being concerned. This discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.

[aussie2324]

Look I went to the CBP as you advise. Why you did not do it your self is beyond me but here is the Second question and answer

 

Hello Mark,

 

Just to clear this up According to the Passenger services act a foriegn flagged ship cannot transport a passenger from one US port to a different US port without visiting a distant foriegn port in between.

So as my question is

First cruise is from Seattle to Alaska to Vancouver (canada) 9/7/2010

 

Second cruise Vancouver (Canada) to Hawaii 9/14/2010

 

 

So even though we get on the first cruise in Seattle USA and get off the second cruise in Hawaii without visiting a distant foreign port in between the two cruises this is not breeching the Passenger Services Act ? As,I have been told Vancouver BC is only a nearby foreign port. even though these are two different cruises we are still getting on in one US port at the beginning of the first cruise and getting off the cruise ship at the end of the second cruise. I am sorry for going on about it but these people have put alot of doubt into a lot of people.And are stating that the person I contacted at the CBP does not understand the Passenger services act.

 

These people are also stating we do not go through CBP in Vancouver but are cleared by Canadian officals can you clarify this for me please.

As I have said we have to disembark in Vancouver at the end of the first cruise to be cleared by customs then we check in again for the second cruise.

 

Answer

 

Dear Tracey,

This will still be OK since you are going on two separate voyages. You are right that you will go through Canadian customs when you get off in Vancouver, and then you will be cleared by CBP (US Customs) when you get to Hawaii. I happen to work at one of the ports the ship will visit, so I understood your question and double checked with a supervisor about it. I hope the weather cooperates for the trip so you get to enjoy Alaska and Hawaii.

 

Mark

 

Please note that in our online tracking software, a “Solved” status simply means that we have provided you with the best information we have to your question. There may still be steps you need to complete before your situation is resolved to your satisfaction. Those steps are explained in our response. If you need further clarification on those steps, please feel free to contact us back.

 

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number 703-526-4200 and speak with a Public Information Officer. Our hours of operation are Monday thru Friday from 8:30am-5:00pm Eastern Time.

 

 

Now read this again. And if the answer is not to your satisfaction ring the CBP yourself. The number is above. I suggest you call before you make another response.