Passenger services act

[crabby1]

Hi everyone, i am also doing the same trip as aussie2324 and have also talked on the phone with CBP and the Maritime Cabotage Task Force also and received the same answers that it was legal. I have also taken it a step further and have asked Carnival and posted below is the response I received from them.

 

 

 

Dear Michael,

 

Thank you for contacting Carnival Cruise Lines. We have received your e-mail message and appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance.

The Jones Act - The Passenger Services Act

 

The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act) prohibits ships of Non-U.S registry from embarking and debarking guests at two different U.S ports. Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S ports, which is prohibited on foreign flagged ships. Note: Puerto Rico and the U.S Virgin Islands (St. Thomas; St. Croix; St. John) are not in the category of U.S ports under this act.

 

The exception to this rule is if the itinerary includes a "distant foreign port". South America and the ABC Islands (Aruba-Bonaire-Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports. Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean Islands do not qualify as distant foreign ports. Also, guests who book back-to-back sailings are not penalized voyages are considered two separate sailings and are treated as such as the two.

 

Any guest who insists on debarking in this situation (which violates the Jones Act) will accept responsibility for any resulting penalties ($300 per person).

 

Violations of the Jones Act are noted under each ship itinerary.

 

While in the past, we have discouraged guests from meeting at a U.S port due to the Jones Act, we may now advise guests that they can meet the ship!

Cruise Only Guests

 

Guests who do not purchase our Fly Aweigh program will be responsible for any and all travel expenses incurred, including the $300 per person Jones Act fee that Carnival may incur for violating this act. Guests will be charged the fee upon boarding the ship and can pay with a credit card, cash or on their Sail & Sign card.

 

Before meeting the ship, the guest must sign an acknowledgment letter that they would like to meet the ship at the next U.S port and are willing to pay the fine. The signed letter will be scanned and sent to the on board Guest Services Manager along with any pertinent flight information.

 

Fly Aweigh Guests

 

As part of our Fly Aweigh program, Travel Services will cover the expense of the Jones Act fee of $300 per person for our Fly Aweigh guests.

 

When guests book Carnival's Fly Aweigh® program, they have the guarantee that should they experience a flight problem or delay along the way, Carnival will be responsible for getting them to their next destination (ship, next port of call or home) by securing flights, hotels and meals, when applicable, at no cost to them.

 

 

If there is anything else we can do for you please don't hesitate to call 1-800-327-9501 at your earliest convenience. Agents are available to assist you 24 hours a day.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Jesus Figueroa

Guest Solutions Support

guestinfo@carnival

[big_duck]

Nice boiler plate response that really in know way answers the question.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

Hi everyone, i am also doing the same trip as aussie2324 and have also talked on the phone with CBP and the Maritime Cabotage Task Force also and received the same answers that it was legal. I have also taken it a step further and have asked Carnival and posted below is the response I received from them.

 

I also followed the above steps, and took it a step further and spoke with the Rules department of CBP in Washington D.C.. Their legal department told me in writing, which I will post when I hear back from Carnival, that it was a clear violation of the PVSA.

 

 

 

Dear Michael,

 

Thank you for contacting Carnival Cruise Lines. We have received your e-mail message and appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance.

The Jones Act - The Passenger Services Act

 

The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act) prohibits ships of Non-U.S registry from embarking and debarking guests at two different U.S ports. Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S ports, which is prohibited on foreign flagged ships. Note: Puerto Rico and the U.S Virgin Islands (St. Thomas; St. Croix; St. John) are not in the category of U.S ports under this act.

 

The exception to this rule is if the itinerary includes a "distant foreign port". South America and the ABC Islands (Aruba-Bonaire-Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports. Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean Islands do not qualify as distant foreign ports. Also, guests who book back-to-back sailings are not penalized voyages are considered two separate sailings and are treated as such as the two.

 

Evidentially they (Carnival) consider it two separate sailings, but CBP does not.

 

Any guest who insists on debarking in this situation (which violates the Jones Act) will accept responsibility for any resulting penalties ($300 per person).

 

Violations of the Jones Act are noted under each ship itinerary.

 

While in the past, we have discouraged guests from meeting at a U.S port due to the Jones Act, we may now advise guests that they can meet the ship!

Cruise Only Guests

 

Guests who do not purchase our Fly Aweigh program will be responsible for any and all travel expenses incurred, including the $300 per person Jones Act fee that Carnival may incur for violating this act. Guests will be charged the fee upon boarding the ship and can pay with a credit card, cash or on their Sail & Sign card.

 

Before meeting the ship, the guest must sign an acknowledgment letter that they would like to meet the ship at the next U.S port and are willing to pay the fine. The signed letter will be scanned and sent to the on board Guest Services Manager along with any pertinent flight information.

 

Fly Aweigh Guests

 

As part of our Fly Aweigh program, Travel Services will cover the expense of the Jones Act fee of $300 per person for our Fly Aweigh guests.

 

When guests book Carnival's Fly Aweigh® program, they have the guarantee that should they experience a flight problem or delay along the way, Carnival will be responsible for getting them to their next destination (ship, next port of call or home) by securing flights, hotels and meals, when applicable, at no cost to them.

 

 

If there is anything else we can do for you please don't hesitate to call 1-800-327-9501 at your earliest convenience. Agents are available to assist you 24 hours a day.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Jesus Figueroa

Guest Solutions Support

guestinfo@carnival

 

I really want to take the cruise too, but I think Carnival is either unaware of the actual rule, or thinks they can circumvent it by saying it is two separate cruises. It is possible that they received the same answer as we did originally stating that it was not a violation of the PVSA, but they are aware of it now, and I hope they step up to the plate and let everybody know. If you choose to take the cruise and want to pay the $300pp fine, so be it. If you don't get caught, that's good too.

 

I will post the email when I get a response from Carnival's management. I hope I'm wrong and they are right, but until I'm sure, I won't continue to make the payments and will have to cancel the cruise.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

Still no word from Carnival.

[aussie2324]

To the person who originally informed me of this issue aka Reggierail I truely apologise. CCL had FINALLY conceded defeat and seeked legal advise after Pat & I emailed them the respose from US Customs and Border Protection. I hope the first person from the CBP is repromanded as he informed us it was okay. Well after many many many emails and stress filled day's we were told by our TA that we had to cancell 1 of our cruises due to the Passenger services act being violated if we did them B2B. So Alaska has been cancelled and we have booked on the Celebrity Mercury for the same cruise but we depart on the 5th instead of the 7th. If I had a hat cruiser2 I would eat it. But I don't so I won't ;) Thank god I did not book my airfares but the little voice in my head being Reggie (even though I never heard his voice) kept saying dig further. I did we were misimformed I stand corrected.

[Goofyisme]

My compliments to you Aussie. I think few here would have the courage to come back and post what you just did.

Hope you enjoy your new cruise.

[aussie2324]

Thankyou Goofyisme,

 

That means alot.

[Cuizer2]

To the person who originally informed me of this issue aka Reggierail I truely apologise. CCL had FINALLY conceded defeat and seeked legal advise after Pat & I emailed them the respose from US Customs and Border Protection. I hope the first person from the CBP is repromanded as he informed us it was okay. Well after many many many emails and stress filled day's we were told by our TA that we had to cancell 1 of our cruises due to the Passenger services act being violated if we did them B2B. So Alaska has been cancelled and we have booked on the Celebrity Mercury for the same cruise but we depart on the 5th instead of the 7th. If I had a hat cruiser2 I would eat it. But I don't so I won't ;) Thank god I did not book my airfares but the little voice in my head being Reggie (even though I never heard his voice) kept saying dig further. I did we were misimformed I stand corrected.

 

Wait until you get flamed by all the clueless idiots on this thread that claimed I didn't know what I was talking about when I said the combination of the two cruises was in fact a violation of the PVSA. Now they are going to claim you are wrong also. And they will not be very nice when doing so.

 

The problem is, the law is so misunderstood that people reply without understanding the ramifications of what they are doing. That includes a few people at the CBP - the very agency responsible for enforcing the PVSA.

 

In short, it doesn't matter how many "cruises" you are on. No foreign flagged SHIP can transport passengers from one US city to another US city without a stop at a distant foreign port.

 

I'm glad you came back and set the record straight. I know none of those prior posters that flamed me would have the same strength of character you have shown.

[aussie2324]

Wait until you get flamed by all the clueless idiots on this thread that claimed I didn't know what I was talking about when I said the combination of the two cruises was in fact a violation of the PVSA. Now they are going to claim you are wrong also. And they will not be very nice when doing so.

 

The problem is, the law is so misunderstood that people reply without understanding the ramifications of what they are doing. That includes a few people at the CBP - the very agency responsible for enforcing the PVSA.

 

In short, it doesn't matter how many "cruises" you are on. No foreign flagged SHIP can transport passengers from one US city to another US city without a stop at a distant foreign port.

 

I'm glad you came back and set the record straight. I know none of those prior posters that flamed me would have the same strength of character you have shown.

 

Thanks,

At least now we can move on and make plans for doing the Alaskan portion with a different cruise line. They said that is not a problem. Go figure. And organising flights and accomadation. I am sorry if I became quite agitated. But I had so many people from CCL and the CBP and the Maritime Cabotage dept telling me the same line. I have put the word out on the other threads as there are a lot of other people doing the same cruise in April as well as sept 2010. There are going to be some really unhappy people. But as you and Reggie said at least it is now and not 2 weeks before the cruise. Thanks anyway If I could buy you a drink I would. But I think the fizz would be gone by the time it arrived from Australia. :p

[Cuizer2]

Thanks,

At least now we can move on and make plans for doing the Alaskan portion with a different cruise line. They said that is not a problem. Go figure. And organising flights and accomadation. I am sorry if I became quite agitated. But I had so many people from CCL and the CBP and the Maritime Cabotage dept telling me the same line. I have put the word out on the other threads as there are a lot of other people doing the same cruise in April as well as sept 2010. There are going to be some really unhappy people. But as you and Reggie said at least it is now and not 2 weeks before the cruise. Thanks anyway If I could buy you a drink I would. But I think the fizz would be gone by the time it arrived from Australia. :p

 

The reason two different ships can take you were one ship cannot is that no one ship is transporting you between two US ports. One ship is taking you from a US port to a foreign port (which is not a distant foreign port). A different ship is taking you from a foreign port (which is still not a distant foreign port) to a US port. Thus, no violation of the PVSA.

 

There are several people on CC and in the CBP who are clueless about the PVSA. In fact, many of them posted on this thread. Unfortunately, in their ignorance they give advise that could cost the cruisers much money and leave them stranded. In addition, they stroke their egos by berating those of us who have actually taken the time to read the PVSA and some of the decisions (both by the CBP people that actually do understand the PVSA and the courts) and thus have a working knowledge of how the PVSA is interpreted by the few at the PVSA that actually do understand the law.

 

Of course those same clueless idiots will not come back to this thread and acknowledge that they gave potentially expensive and absolutely wrong advise, and will instead give the same wrong advise to the next person who asks a similar question. And then the cycle will start all over again.

[aussie2324]

The reason two different ships can take you were one ship cannot is that no one ship is transporting you between two US ports. One ship is taking you from a US port to a foreign port (which is not a distant foreign port). A different ship is taking you from a foreign port (which is still not a distant foreign port) to a US port. Thus, no violation of the PVSA.

 

There are several people on CC and in the CBP who are clueless about the PVSA. In fact, many of them posted on this thread. Unfortunately, in their ignorance they give advise that could cost the cruisers much money and leave them stranded. In addition, they stroke their egos by berating those of us who have actually taken the time to read the PVSA and some of the decisions (both by the CBP people that actually do understand the PVSA and the courts) and thus have a working knowledge of how the PVSA is interpreted by the few at the PVSA that actually do understand the law.

 

Of course those same clueless idiots will not come back to this thread and acknowledge that they gave potentially expensive and absolutely wrong advise, and will instead give the same wrong advise to the next person who asks a similar question. And then the cycle will start all over again.

 

Well just remember to save this thread.:o

[Cuizer2]

Well just remember to save this thread.:o

 

Thank you, I have it booked marked.

[notme1955]

Well, this clueless idiot apologizes for assuming that the powers that be actually know and follow the laws.

 

Meaning Carnival, of course.

 

I don't recall berating anyone or calling names. That's not my style. I like to think I'm a little more adult about things than to resort to those tactics. However, if someone was offended by my comments, I sincerely apologize.

 

Thank you, aussie2324, for looking into this and providing the updated information.

[Cuizer2]

Well, this clueless idiot apologizes for assuming that the powers that be actually know and follow the laws.

 

That is what Netscape thought about Microsoft.

 

I'm sure you know what they say about assuming.

[notme1955]

I'm sure you know what they say about assuming.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Yes, I do know.

 

I also know when to admit I was wrong, but more importantly I know about gracefully accepting apologies when offered. I'm sure you'll be posting again after this. I'll let you have the last word since it seems to be important to you.

 

Aussie, again, thank you for looking into this. Any day I learn something new is a good day!

[Powriv]

I have some friends who were trying to take a B2B on NCL Pearl that included an overnight from Seattle to Vancouver and a 5-day Vancouver to Los Angeles. I am not sure how much time they were given but they were told they couldn't do this back to back cause of the Jones Act.

 

They ended up doing the overnight on Princess and catching Pearl down to LA

 

Good luck to OP in whatever you sort out. Wonderful to get official responses that offer no concensus in what to do or what rules apply

[Cuizer2]

I have some friends who were trying to take a B2B on NCL Pearl that included an overnight from Seattle to Vancouver and a 5-day Vancouver to Los Angeles. I am not sure how much time they were given but they were told they couldn't do this back to back cause of the Jones Act.

 

They ended up doing the overnight on Princess and catching Pearl down to LA

 

Good luck to OP in whatever you sort out. Wonderful to get official responses that offer no concensus in what to do or what rules apply

 

Read post # 205

[WaianaeGal]

We are on the Spirit 4-23 and had the b2b booked... no word from Carnival... but due to all of the discussion here on the boards... I'm cancelling it...

 

Thanks Tracy for hanging in there and getting someone at CCL to give you THE ANSWER.... who did your agant finally hear from at CCL??

 

This has been a very interesting read for Friday the 13th... glad I stayed home and I agree with Notme1955... a good day to learn something new.

 

Aloha

[aussie2324]

We are on the Spirit 4-23 and had the b2b booked... no word from Carnival... but due to all of the discussion here on the boards... I'm cancelling it...

 

Thanks Tracy for hanging in there and getting someone at CCL to give you THE ANSWER.... who did your agant finally hear from at CCL??

 

This has been a very interesting read for Friday the 13th... glad I stayed home and I agree with Notme1955... a good day to learn something new.

 

Aloha

 

I am not sure who contacted my TA she did not say but I did send the email to 3 people at CCL. I don't know if I can post their names. But my email is on my sigi if you want to email me I will send them to you.

Sorry I had to spoil your cruise but I did not want people to get caught like I did. You can always book on the Celebrity Mercury 5th sept 2010 Vancouver to Alaska to Vancouver then go on the Spirit 14th sept 2010 Vancouver to Hawaii. That is what we did. We can still go just on two different ships. Does not make sense to me but that is the law.:confused:

[wrf2e]

The PVSA does not apply to "cruises", it applies to ships. A foreign flagged ship cannot transport passengers between two US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. The PVSA does not care if it is one cruise, twenty cruises or not a cruise at all. A foreign cargo ship on a commercial cargo run, stopping at the same ports, would also be in violation of the PVSA if it allowed a person or persons (from any country) to board the ship in Seattle and disembark in Honolulu.

 

So using this logic if someone did the SEA to Vancuver in 2008 on the Spirit, then flew home and decided to do the Vancuver to Hawaii in 2009, also on the spirit, would be in violation of the PVSA?

[Cuizer2]

So using this logic if someone did the SEA to Vancuver in 2008 on the Spirit, then flew home and decided to do the Vancuver to Hawaii in 2009, also on the spirit, would be in violation of the PVSA?

Probably not.

[big_duck]

So using this logic if someone did the SEA to Vancuver in 2008 on the Spirit, then flew home and decided to do the Vancuver to Hawaii in 2009, also on the spirit, would be in violation of the PVSA?

 

Your question fails the obvious test. There was transport in between.

[Pistol Packin Mama]

Well, I see word is finally out. Just got back from the Veterans Cruise and had a message from Carnival telling me that they were very sorry but the B2B was in violation of the PVSA and they apprecitated me bringing it to their attention. Tracey and I had really been doing some digging and a gut feeling told me there was a problem. As Tracey said it is unfortunate that even the people in charge were giving mis information. Even on board the Conquest they were giving out the wrong info, but it is over now and we will move and do something else. Now sure what yet, but we shall see. Thanks Tracey, it was a pleasure working this out with you, even though it didn't work out the way we had hoped.

[reggierail]

I'm really sorry that so many people had to change their travel plans. :(

 

I am glad that several people on this and other threads were persistant in bringing this to everyone's attention. It's a shame that it took Carnival so long to discover the violation in the B2B cruise from Seattle to Hawaii. I brought it to their attention many months ago and never received a followup from them.

 

The good thing is that everyone has plenty of time to make different arrangements. It is better to do that now rather than several months or even weeks before sail date. :eek:

 

Reggie :)

[reggierail]

To the person who originally informed me of this issue aka Reggierail I truely apologise. CCL had FINALLY conceded defeat and seeked legal advise after Pat & I emailed them the respose from US Customs and Border Protection. I hope the first person from the CBP is repromanded as he informed us it was okay. Well after many many many emails and stress filled day's we were told by our TA that we had to cancell 1 of our cruises due to the Passenger services act being violated if we did them B2B. So Alaska has been cancelled and we have booked on the Celebrity Mercury for the same cruise but we depart on the 5th instead of the 7th. If I had a hat cruiser2 I would eat it. But I don't so I won't ;) Thank god I did not book my airfares but the little voice in my head being Reggie (even though I never heard his voice) kept saying dig further. I did we were misimformed I stand corrected.

 

Apology accepted. :)

 

Even though my flame retardant suit got quite a workout, I'm glad that you were able to make the changes necessary. It is better to do that now rather than a few months or even weeks before sailing.

You will really enjoy Mercury, I have sailed 4 times on her and really love that ship. Hubbard Glacier also has very good glacier viewing. You will also have a great time in Vancouver between cruises.

 

Reggie :)