What constitutes "bad behavior"?

[Ellanora]

...and in my defence there was no "no wading" sign

 

Do you really need a "no wading" sign to tell you what common sense should have? If so, I'm guessing that without a "no sitting under the table" sign, we're all just wasting our breath, here.

 

Also, I really don't think there is a difference between a "smaller, older ship" and a "newer ship." Good behaviour should be the standard everywhere.

[beachchick]

I don't think a child of 3 is able to discern the differences -- if any -- between casual dining and fine dining. And a child of 3 (and younger and older) thrive on consistency. So for me, it's always bad to crawl under the table...or stand on the booth, move to another table or booth. It's always bad to run up to strangers and hug them, or jump in their lap. It's always bad to eat cake (or most other food that isn't specifically finger food) with your hands. Even pizza is sometimes a fork and/or spoon food (and we found that in Canada it is always knife and fork food!).It's bad to spit out food or liquid. It's bad if it's McDonald's, it's bad if it's fine dining, it's particularly bad in a dining establishment where it's very crowded, as the child could get hurt, others could get hurt. If the child can't sit quietly and be quietly amused (with carrot sticks, crayons and paper brought along, some quiet toy, then it's the responsible parents role to remove the child from the scene until either the child is calm, or the other parent has paid the bill, perhaps taken the rest of the dinner in a take-out, and everyone has left the building.

 

As for "stranger danger" -- the problem with that is that somestrangers are not dangerous. How will you teach your child that a police officer, or fireman, are OK, while other strangers might not be? And how will you introduce your child to a school setting where everyone might be a stranger, on the first day?

 

Lots of traps to parenting, aren't there. And lots of differing opinions. It's easy to ignore those opinions we don't agree with, isn't it.

 

Good post. As for the stranger danger, I agree with CanadianTwosome below and that's what we did with our DD. No doubt it's what she will do with our new DGD (who is a beauty, not that I'm biased). When they're too young to understand the differences, it's best to not allow children to run up to strangers. As soon as they're old enough to understand that police officers, fire fighters, etc. are there to protect us, then that's what we should teach them. It's amazing how early children understand such things.

 

As for school settings, I'm a big fan of pre-school for most children. Not necessarily all day or even every day when they're really young. But it is usually so beneficial down the road for children to have an introduction to a school-like setting where they will interact with new people and have other adults (besides their parents/guardians) responsible for them in a structured setting.

 

I don't think the thread has been derailed at all. The discussion is about behaviour, and as has come up, we've all got different perspectives and we're not just talking about 'bad' behaviour, but (un)acceptable behaviour, behaviour that 'affects' others, etc. There's no reason not to throw dangerous behaviour into the mix. :)

 

So, to answer the question about never talking to any stranger ever, in my opinion, ABSOLUTELY - at least when they're toddlers. At some point, children are capable of making distinctions, but until that time, I believe it's better to err on the side of caution. When my daughter was that young, I also taught her to NEVER touch the stove. Was it hot all the time? Of course not, but if she never touched it, I didn't have to worry about the one time it was... and as she got older and more capable of considering her own actions, she learned the difference between an idle stove and one that was being used (and was therefore hot).

 

In the same way, when she was very small, we taught her not to talk to strangers - any strangers - unless we explicitly told her that it was okay. By the time she got to school, she had reached the age where she was capable of reasoning and understanding that in specific situations, SOME strangers are okay. For instance, the teachers and fellow students at her school are okay, but some random adult hanging around the school is NOT. The guy who walks his dogs in the school yard every once in a while is absolutely off limits. I can confirm that she has no issues with socializing, and is comfortable doing so with all ages and in all situations. A cruise is an excellent example; she can go from helping out with the smaller kids in the Kid's Crew pirate parade to swimming with new friends her own age to sitting at a table full of adults in a formal gown in the dining room.

 

Parenting is an ongoing process. When a child is too young to understand distinctions and differences in situations, the rules must be more strict; as they mature and show more ability to discern things for themselves, the rules can have more parameters and complexity. This is, of course, only my opinion. This method worked incredibly well for us and our child. She's well adjusted, does well in school, has never had a serious injury, and is complimented regularly (or at least I am) about her behaviour in not only restaurants, but elsewhere as well. It may or may not work for anyone else or any other children, but I couldn't be happier with how it's turned out for us. :)

 

You sound like a fabulous parent who has found (or at least, is finding because you're right that parenting is an ongoing learning experience) a good balance. Right on!:)

 

Do you really need a "no wading" sign to tell you what common sense should have? If so, I'm guessing that without a "no sitting under the table" sign, we're all just wasting our breath, here.

 

Also, I really don't think there is a difference between a "smaller, older ship" and a "newer ship." Good behaviour should be the standard everywhere.

 

Exactly what I was thinking. Do we really need signs to tell us every little "no" and "yes" in our lives?

 

beachchick

[sas80]

My dad is a special ed teacher, and he has the same opinion I do. I haven't asked my mom's opinion (she's also a teacher). I have a feeling my wife's sister might agree with the other side though (yes, another teacher).

 

I think he's doing pretty well. Hasn't been mean to his new baby sister yet. Well he might take a toy from her, but no hitting or anything like that. Tries to pat her butt if she's fussy, give her the pacifier, ask if she's ok, etc. He can even share his toys with others, but not for more than a minute or so :) He knows some behaviors are completely unacceptable, i.e. if he picks up some rocks (small pebbles) and throws them at anyone, we leave that second. That only happened twice, and not since (in his defence, he saw other kids do it too).

 

Sounds like he is doing very well. My curiosity is, what if you decided to require more of him. What if you are selling him short? What if he is, in fact, capable of staying seated at the table with everyone and, in conjunction, not fussing about it? What if the phrase "you are a big boy now and big boys do not play under the table" "you are a big boy now and big boys stay seated at the table until everyone is finished"

 

Our DS will be 3 in October and these are things that we have required of him since he was 2. No, it was not easy when we first started requiring that he sit at the table with usuntil we were done eating, and we did start this 'training' at home, but eventually (fairly quickly) he 'got it'.

 

Dont sell your beautiful child short. There is a distinct possibility that he is very much capable of behaviours that you 'let him slide' on because of his age. The 'trick' is to start making these requirements of him at home so that by the time you get to the public scene he knows the ramifications of his actions if he does not follow thru. And, once you start requiring more of him, you have to follow thru, no backtracking.... That is probably the hardest part, standing firm....as parents we are all so tired in general....right?

[crusinmama06]

I wasn't trying to bring up past behavior but if we must...this is one that we can say he's grown out of.

 

That's not a "behavior to grow out of". A simple no and some redirection would have worked for a 1.5 year old.

 

Baby points to fountain, wants in it - parent says "Oh, that water is icky" {too cold, filled with sharks, whatever works} and then the parent says "Let's go walk up to the mini golf and let you push some balls around!" :D

[cyntil8ing]

Plus maybe he'll have grown out of that phase, it's more than a few months off.

 

Why is it his responsibility? Bad behavior doesn't get better when it's uncorrected; it gets worse.

 

I have no problem at all with children acting like children. I don't expect a three year old to act like an grown up. But I am ever hopeful that when there are children acting like children, their parents will act like parents.

 

Hoping the behavior magically goes away on its own is not an effective parenting strategy.

[sas80]

Why is it his responsibility? Bad behavior doesn't get better when it's uncorrected; it gets worse.

 

I have no problem at all with children acting like children. I don't expect a three year old to act like an grown up. But I am ever hopeful that when there are children acting like children, their parents will act like parents.

 

Hoping the behavior magically goes away on its own is not an effective parenting strategy.

 

 

It's the difference between active versus passive parenting.

 

Shoot, if my parents had taken the mentality that "she will grow out of it" my behavior would have been SO much different in our house. And not in a good way.

[RENMama]

You probably wouldnt know my son was ADHD on meds. He wasnt/isnt one of those bouncing off the wall kids. He needs meds in order to learn. After 5 years of special education assistance he is now entering third grade as an average kid.

He struggles yet but as he grows his brain matures and he is able to develop better strategies for dealing with life.

We dont expect less of him than other kids but instead have to plan a bit more and parent differently.

 

Im sure we all know crappy parents but the generalization that all parents of any adhd kid are just lazy really pisses me off.

 

It has taken alot of work to get our son where he is now. Sure we have made mistakes along the way but our son is who he is.

[Warm Breezes]

I have a DS(15) and DD(12). DS has been a very laid back, low tempered child since birth. We were able to take him to restaurants at a young age with no problem. DD cried until she could talk and then she hasn't stopped talking. We tried to take her out as a toddler and found that it did not work so we did not go. When she started talking and stopped crying we were able to go out again. We set boundries with both children at an early age and even with their different temperments they both learned proper manners when we were out in public. It was a matter of letting them know what was proper and what was not, letting them know what would happen if they did not follow the rules, and then following through with the discipline when they did not follow the rules. We have rarely had to discipline because they learned early that we will follow through. Normally the "look" is all I have to give.

 

My thoughts are that once a child can talk and understand you, as a parent you need to set the limits for proper behavior and follow through. I would never let my children crawl under the table or walk around the tables in the paths of other customers or waiters. I played a lot of tic-tac-toe and hangman with my children as we waited for our food. I did not expect them to just sit there. I made sure they had quiet activities that didn't interfere with anyone else to keep them occupied. If you plan to take your children out in public then you should be prepared to make sure they can act appropriately. I refuse to excuse poor behavior as the are just being kids (they still need boundries - some parents just don't know how to set them- distract them with a quiet table activity), they are hungry(then bring them a snack), they are tired (then you should have them home in bed, not dragging them out to a restaurant to disturb other peoples dinner). These are just excuses for a parent not doing his job as a parent.

 

JMHO since you asked for it.

[kitty9]

I was a special education teacher for 17 years, in a large urban district. And even during the years I taught the severely developmentally disabled, they knew limits. There's no reason why any child can't learn limits IF a parent takes the time to teach them. My mom told us stories of how she put limits on us from the time we were starting to crawl---no grabbing the Christmas tree and pulling it down, no touching the oven and things like that. We knew our limits and didn't go beyond them. From what I've seen and from what my sister has seen (she's a middle school teacher), we've decided that there are a lot of lazy, uninvolved parents in this world. I'm not saying the OP is this, but many parents today have become so self absorbed, so lazy and spend so little time with their kids, they have no time or interest in teaching limits.

 

Personally, I cannot believe any parent that would allow a child to go into a public water feature. IMHO, that's totally irresponsible in many ways. First, they put chemicals in those fountains to keep the water clean---chemicals that aren't used in swimming pools. Second, many of those have electrical features that could have caused harm to the child. I'm sorry, but I can't imagine how a responsible parent could put a child in a public water fountain, regardless if there's a warning sign or not. Besides, does not common sense reign supreme anymore? Do you need a sign telling you not to throw your toddler in a pool that's 10 ft deep? Do you need a warning sign telling you not to allow your child to climb into a car and drive? Where is common sense today?

 

People on these boards always complain about children out of control, children who don't have limits. I think we now see how all this comes about. Parents who don't see that their child's "proclivities" in public settings aren't a problem and don't cause harm or annoyance. Yes, children must be children, and I'm the first to understand this from my teaching experience. But children must be taught that not all behaviors are acceptable. Heck, it sure does seem that some put more effort into training their pets and setting limits on them than they do instructing their children.

[cruisead]

I don't participate in roll calls or anything like that anymore, so we don't tell until after we're back. In the case of our last cruise I did post some while on the cruise itself, but things kept going downhill so I just gave up (on the return cruise they let him back onboard but didn't have our cards setup for the second cruise, so that was not fun waiting with a toddler trying to get back on).

 

I think this comment says alot. Why would one not want anyone to know what ship you're on? Does reputation preceed?

 

We raised four boys, and we set limits on them from the get go. Never would we allow them to crawl under tables at public places, stand on chairs or banquettes, nor climb into fountains, or any behaviors such as those. One of our boys did have behavorial problems, but even he knew limits. It takes time and patience to teach a child how to become a well behaved child, and if one is not willing to put in this time, of course a child will be out of control. One word that every parent needs not to be afraid to use is NO. But it seems that today, parents are so concerned with being a child's friend or buddy, they don't want to use that word.

 

OP, not knowing what ship you'll be on, I can say that ship's restaurants today are quite close quarters, every seat and table is taken and there's virtually no room for a child to play. You can't control where you sit in the restaurant as those assignments are made well before you board. I simply cannot imagine allowing a child to crawl under tables at the risk of causing a waiter to trip and have their heavy trays fall on passengers. If you want a lawsuit if your son causes an accident, then have at it. I just know that if I were injured or had hot food dumped on me because a child were allowed to crawl around, I wouldn't be suing the cruise line, I'd be suing the parents.

[quincytoo]

I have a DS(15) and DD(12). DS has been a very laid back, low tempered child since birth. We were able to take him to restaurants at a young age with no problem. DD cried until she could talk and then she hasn't stopped talking. We tried to take her out as a toddler and found that it did not work so we did not go. When she started talking and stopped crying we were able to go out again. We set boundries with both children at an early age and even with their different temperments they both learned proper manners when we were out in public. It was a matter of letting them know what was proper and what was not, letting them know what would happen if they did not follow the rules, and then following through with the discipline when they did not follow the rules. We have rarely had to discipline because they learned early that we will follow through. Normally the "look" is all I have to give.

 

My thoughts are that once a child can talk and understand you, as a parent you need to set the limits for proper behavior and follow through. I would never let my children crawl under the table or walk around the tables in the paths of other customers or waiters. I played a lot of tic-tac-toe and hangman with my children as we waited for our food. I did not expect them to just sit there. I made sure they had quiet activities that didn't interfere with anyone else to keep them occupied. If you plan to take your children out in public then you should be prepared to make sure they can act appropriately. I refuse to excuse poor behavior as the are just being kids (they still need boundries - some parents just don't know how to set them- distract them with a quiet table activity), they are hungry(then bring them a snack), they are tired (then you should have them home in bed, not dragging them out to a restaurant to disturb other peoples dinner). These are just excuses for a parent not doing his job as a parent.

 

JMHO since you asked for it.

 

 

That is my middle and youngest son :) Our youngest is high ADHD and was on meds until last year. They helped him so much to concentrate at school :)

 

We have taken our children out since they were newborns and expected them to behave, of course when they were babies we dined early, ate fast and left :)

 

At the second cry, yell, whatever the outbreak we left, it only happened once or twice.

 

I think if children are raised to behave at the dining table, both at home and away this is just behaviour expected at all times and never an issue.

 

When they were old enough to know that when my eyebrow went up, they were in trouble when we left the premises, they quickly behaved. I would never let my children under a table...ewww...standing on booths, chairs, climbing on other tables and such other offensive behaviour were never allowed.

 

Nor do I want to see the child at the next table dancing next to my table, nor do I want to hear the child at the next table beyond the ocassional polite well mannered dining conversation.

 

 

As for the child in the water fountain???? Really???? Why??? EWWW

[J & G]

Another thread got me a bit steamed...so I'm asking this here to see if I really am off base.

 

What exactly constitutes bad behavior for a child? What is, and is not, allowed?

 

Ok, I have a three year old son. I stated that in restaurants we do let him crawl under OUR OWN table, and even be right next to the table. Never out of arm's reach, not any more in the way than a high chair would be (right next to the table means just that, not an arm's length from the edge of the table).

 

Many people take pills with their meals....not just old people, either. Sometimes those pills get dropped and not retrieved. So do lots of other things that could pose a danger to a toddler. I would never take a chance on a child finding an errant pill, knife, etc. under the table.

 

Besides, some behaviors are acceptable and others are not. Crawling around under a table in a public place is one of the "nots"......

 

 

I disagree with a small part of that. I think that it's ok to expect less of a child at a younger age.

 

I imagine by age 5 he'll be able to act even more grown-up. Maybe being under the table won't be allowed unless he's trying to get out and we're too lazy to move (I remember doing this when I was a wee lad). Don't think we'd keep him from sitting at a different table as long as it wasn't inappropriate. My opinion might change later though.

 

Why do you think he will act differently at 5? Manners are taught over time....they don't come naturally with age. There are lots of ill-mannered adults to prove that.....

 

Quote from that other thread here: "Last cruise (we combined an Alaska NB and SB), my son really, really wanted to play in the fountain that was in the atrium (not sure it could be called a fountain, just a little bit of running water around some rocks). It was pretty small and out of the way, so one day I took off his shoes and pants and let him get in for a little bit. People were a bit amused, and in my defence there was no "no wading" sign. At no time did I let him sit in it (due to being in diapers still)."

 

Thank goodness he didn't really, really want to drive the car.....:D

 

People on these boards always complain about children out of control, children who don't have limits. I think we now see how all this comes about.....children must be taught that not all behaviors are acceptable. Heck, it sure does seem that some put more effort into training their pets and setting limits on them than they do instructing their children.

 

Amen, and well-said!

[CeleBrat]

Thank goodness he didn't really, really want to drive the car.....:D

 

Oh my gosh! I almost posted the same thing--b/c there was that story in the news about a 7 year old that took the family car out for a drive b/c he didn't want to go to church.

 

Exactly my thought! If you can't get him to NOT go under the table, then how do you prevent him from doing the really, really dangerous things, like driving the car, or jumping in the pool when mom and dad are in the house, or drinking alcohol? I had a childhood friend that died when she was 10 b/c she had a headache, so she decided to take some of her dad's "headache pills." They were actually pills for his heart condition, but he jokingly called them his "headache pills." She made a HUGE error in judgment by taking medicine on her own, rather than asking her parents for some children's aspirin. Consequences---HUGE. She lost her life.

 

CeleBrat

[CeleBrat]

And here is the link to that video of the 7-yr old driving the car. INSANE!

 

http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/52107567.html

[guk]

Just out of interest OP where are you going in nov? We are off on the inependence transatlantic with our 3 half yr old and was panicking about there not being any other kids on board! We wouldn't let our DD crawl under tables either but mainly because her clothes would end up filthy ;-)

[Cuizer2]

Another thread got me a bit steamed...so I'm asking this here to see if I really am off base.

 

What exactly constitutes bad behavior for a child? What is, and is not, allowed?

 

Ok, I have a three year old son. I stated that in restaurants we do let him crawl under OUR OWN table, and even be right next to the table. Never out of arm's reach, not any more in the way than a high chair would be (right next to the table means just that, not an arm's length from the edge of the table). Something I didn't mention in the other thread...if there's music playing I might let him dance next to the table, but we're liable to do so too. Oh, and I even have the gall to let him sit at the table next to us, if it's not too busy (i.e., if there are tons of empty tables and no one's waiting for one).

 

I have to reiterate...we haven't done this on a cruise yet. Just talking about normal everyday stuff. The types of restaurants I'm talking about are Denny's, Taco Bell, etc. Nothing high-end.

 

I also stated that when we go out, we don't leave the very second he gets fussy. We'll try for a couple minutes to calm him down before giving up and leaving. Basically if he's fussy we'll break out crayons, let him under the table (our table, not someone else's), switch seats, etc. If that doesn't work, then we get to take turns walking him around until the food comes. And when I'm done eating, if he gets fussy I often get to leave with him and wait in the car while my wife finishes.

 

Due to this I'm rude, inconsiderate, and selfish. I don't think I am. But perhaps I am. Hence the post. I'm curious what others who are currently parents think is acceptable behavior. Should you simply not bother going on a cruise with a three year old? Is it acceptable to take him to a restaurant and try for a couple minutes to get him to sit still before you admit defeat, or should you just never go out? Should a child not be allowed to crawl under a table or sit at a table next to you, assuming he/she isn't physically bothering anyone else?

 

So, what do you let your kids get away with, and what just isn't acceptable? Any gray areas? It's a serious question. I know I'm not always right (far from it). Just curious if I'm way out of line, or if when we get older we just want the kids to be out of sight, out of mind (i.e., a kid just being a kid is bad enough).

 

First of all, nothing you mentioned would bother me. That said, some consideration needs to be given to the atmosphere. What is acceptable on a school yard playground might not be at a cemetery. What is acceptable in a sports stadium might not be inside a library.

 

So, what is acceptable at a one or two star restaurant might not be at a four or five star restaurant. The same with a cruise. What is acceptable at Carnival or Disney might not be at Crystal or Silversea. In fact, what is acceptable at the buffet on Carnival might not be on formal night in the main restaurant.

 

Some people don't want to see any kids on a cruise. However, some consideration has to be given to the fact that if a young child is allowed on the cruise, that child is not going to behave the same as an adult. Children are not born with the knowledge of how to act like an adult. They have to learn, and any learning process involves mistakes. The captain of the ship, no matter how good (s)he may be, was not made captain of the ship two days (or even two years) after graduation from whatever maritime college (s)he graduated from.

 

In general children are given eighteen years to learn how to act like an adult. The younger they are, the more mistakes they will make. Just like you are worried about being rude, you need to realize some adults are also. Everyone once in a while there is a 911 call, by an adult, complaining about something wrong with a fast food take out order. So in some cases, it takes longer than eighteen years to learn to be an adult. An adult that makes it known (s)he cannot tolerate a fussy child is no less rude than a parent that does nothing to calm the child down.

[CanadianTwosome]

Good post. As for the stranger danger, I agree with CanadianTwosome below and that's what we did with our DD. No doubt it's what she will do with our new DGD (who is a beauty, not that I'm biased). When they're too young to understand the differences, it's best to not allow children to run up to strangers. As soon as they're old enough to understand that police officers, fire fighters, etc. are there to protect us, then that's what we should teach them. It's amazing how early children understand such things.

 

As for school settings, I'm a big fan of pre-school for most children. Not necessarily all day or even every day when they're really young. But it is usually so beneficial down the road for children to have an introduction to a school-like setting where they will interact with new people and have other adults (besides their parents/guardians) responsible for them in a structured setting.

 

 

 

You sound like a fabulous parent who has found (or at least, is finding because you're right that parenting is an ongoing learning experience) a good balance. Right on!:)

 

 

 

Exactly what I was thinking. Do we really need signs to tell us every little "no" and "yes" in our lives?

 

beachchick

 

Thank you very much!! My mom was incredible and I credit her with every 'right' move I make. The mistakes are mine. :p

 

I completely agree about preschool. Because we were only able to have one, we made a point of not only enrolling her in preschool, but also sending her to daycare at least a few days a week, even when we didn't need to. We just believe that it's incredibly important to experience socialization, sharing, taking turns, and all the things that come with having other kids around.

 

I've seen the phrase 'common sense' kicked around the thread... people do realize that it's anything but common, right? :p That's one of our favourite 'jokes' in our house (even though it's not actually 'funny') - that and 'common courtesy'... also sadly uncommon.

 

For those who have brought up the possibility of pills on the floor, I've been at more than one table where something like that has fallen. My aunt takes about ten pills with supper (fewer with other meals). She's on meds for her heart, her thyroid, her blood pressure, and goodness knows what else, but they all get lined up at the top of her plate and then she plays with them with her fingertip until the meal comes so that she can take them with food. I've scrutinized more than one floor looking for one of them... and found 'most' of them. What happens when a toddler ingests a blood pressure pill... or a ******? I'd rather not find out.

 

So many of the posts on this thread have amused me. Thanks everyone! I love sharing stories about my child and others that I can smile or laugh at because there's something I can relate to - when they're stories about kids that are being 'parented'. I feel awkward when someone tells me the 'funniest thing' that their child did and it's horrifying to me that the child did it at all - and worsened by the parent's amusement!

 

Years ago here, some children climbed over the fence at a power transformer and one of them was actually stupid (yes, I used the 'S' word!) enough to try to CLIMB IT. His grandmother then attempted to sue the city (for about five minutes). I remember being absolutely stunned by the behaviour. First, they lived very near the park where the transformer was and I couldn't believe the grandmother (and the other parents) hadn't emphasized how dangerous the transformer was, since it was so close. Second, it had HUGE signs on it and all around it on every fence saying 'Danger' and 'Keep Out', etc. As a child I NEVER would have even considered going past a sign like that; if it said 'keep out', I did (and have taught my child to do the same). Third, it hums. I don't mean a little, barely audible hum, this thing can be heard long before you get close to the fence - and if you've never been near a transformer, the hum is both audible and sensory - you can feel the electricity in the air. Climb it? TOUCH it? :eek: In any case, the point of my story is that I just couldn't wrap my head around kids doing something so stupid - especially the idea that nobody had taught them to respect property, obey posted signs, not trespass, and not touch anything that is clearly dangerous.

 

Setting limits goes well beyond 'a good idea'. In my opinion it's an absolute necessity. I've spent my life (including my childhood) not only shocked by what some people have done, but at the idea that they would even think of it. How do they come up with the ideas, let alone act on them? People tell me they did things when they were younger and I just shake my head in wonder - for my sister and I, it wasn't like we thought of naughty things to do and then chose not to because we were such 'good girls'; the naughty things just didn't occur to us. Steal your parents' car? Get into the liquor cabinet? Climb into private property? Crazy. The thing is, knowledge of right and wrong is not innate, it's learned - it's TAUGHT. One of the lessons we've been emphasizing since our daughter was big enough to listen is the concept of respect. It's so encompassing - respecting others' space, respecting others' property, respecting yourself, respecting the law... the list goes on and on. How does your behaviour affect others: what you say, what you do, how you move your body - if you decide you need to 'twirl' are you at risk of hitting someone or something? If you leave the dvd out of the case, how does it get put away? Even the most trivial of behaviours can affect others.

 

I have to say, I'm a very fortunate parent. It's all well and good that I can come on here and say great things about my child, but I have never had to deal with many of the issues that I know other parents do. She started out as the happiest, most even tempered baby you could imagine. She pretty much fussed when she was hungry and tired, and except on rare occasions we were on top of those, so all we got were smiles and coos. She's also always been - as far as kids go - an incredibly good listener, and when she doesn't listen, it's never because she's being defiant, it's just because she's distracted. The one thing we did have to handle when she was around 3-4 was biting. Apparently one of the kids at the daycare was a biter and she decided to give it a try. We talked to her about it (she may or may not have grasped everything we said) and we told her that it was NOT acceptable - EVER, and that was that. We discussed it with the caregivers and requested that they let us know about even the slightest incident and it never came up again. Did I mention I feel lucky? That being said, though, my husband and I have put a LOT of effort into teaching her what is and isn't acceptable, and setting a good example. There is never any question for us which is going to 'win out' - having fun or being responsible parents - on our last cruise we did the 'Discover Scuba' excursion, and at each step we asked our daughter how she felt about proceeding and would have stopped if she'd wanted (thank goodness she didn't!!). The thing is, I've never felt like I've made a 'sacrifice' or even had to choose something I didn't want to do, because no matter what the options are, the best thing for her is always the one I want. My greatest hope is that she will feel about me the way I feel about my mom. :)

 

I'm really sorry about the length of this post... sometimes I just 'have to get it out'... many on this board already know this! :p

[quincytoo]

Thank you very much!! My mom was incredible and I credit her with every 'right' move I make. The mistakes are mine. :p

 

I completely agree about preschool. Because we were only able to have one, we made a point of not only enrolling her in preschool, but also sending her to daycare at least a few days a week, even when we didn't need to. We just believe that it's incredibly important to experience socialization, sharing, taking turns, and all the things that come with having other kids around.

 

I've seen the phrase 'common sense' kicked around the thread... people do realize that it's anything but common, right? That's one of our favourite 'jokes' in our house (even though it's not actually 'funny') - that and 'common courtesy'... also sadly uncommon.

 

For those who have brought up the possibility of pills on the floor, I've been at more than one table where something like that has fallen. My aunt takes about ten pills with supper (fewer with other meals). She's on meds for her heart, her thyroid, her blood pressure, and goodness knows what else, but they all get lined up at the top of her plate and then she plays with them with her fingertip until the meal comes so that she can take them with food. I've scrutinized more than one floor looking for one of them... and found 'most' of them. What happens when a toddler ingests a blood pressure pill... or a ******? I'd rather not find out.

 

So many of the posts on this thread have amused me. Thanks everyone! I love sharing stories about my child and others that I can smile or laugh at because there's something I can relate to - when they're stories about kids that are being 'parented'. I feel awkward when someone tells me the 'funniest thing' that their child did and it's horrifying to me that the child did it at all - and worsened by the parent's amusement!

 

Years ago here, some children climbed over the fence at a power transformer and one of them was actually stupid (yes, I used the 'S' word!) enough to try to CLIMB IT. His grandmother then attempted to sue the city (for about five minutes). I remember being absolutely stunned by the behaviour. First, they lived very near the park where the transformer was and I couldn't believe the grandmother (and the other parents) hadn't emphasized how dangerous the transformer was, since it was so close. Second, it had HUGE signs on it and all around it on every fence saying 'Danger' and 'Keep Out', etc. As a child I NEVER would have even considered going past a sign like that; if it said 'keep out', I did (and have taught my child to do the same). Third, it hums. I don't mean a little, barely audible hum, this thing can be heard long before you get close to the fence - and if you've never been near a transformer, the hum is both audible and sensory - you can feel the electricity in the air. Climb it? TOUCH it? In any case, the point of my story is that I just couldn't wrap my head around kids doing something so stupid - especially the idea that nobody had taught them to respect property, obey posted signs, not trespass, and not touch anything that is clearly dangerous.

 

Setting limits goes well beyond 'a good idea'. In my opinion it's an absolute necessity. I've spent my life (including my childhood) not only shocked by what some people have done, but at the idea that they would even think of it. How do they come up with the ideas, let alone act on them? People tell me they did things when they were younger and I just shake my head in wonder - for my sister and I, it wasn't like we thought of naughty things to do and then chose not to because we were such 'good girls'; the naughty things just didn't occur to us. Steal your parents' car? Get into the liquor cabinet? Climb into private property? Crazy. The thing is, knowledge of right and wrong is not innate, it's learned - it's TAUGHT. One of the lessons we've been emphasizing since our daughter was big enough to listen is the concept of respect. It's so encompassing - respecting others' space, respecting others' property, respecting yourself, respecting the law... the list goes on and on. How does your behaviour affect others: what you say, what you do, how you move your body - if you decide you need to 'twirl' are you at risk of hitting someone or something? If you leave the dvd out of the case, how does it get put away? Even the most trivial of behaviours can affect others.

 

I have to say, I'm a very fortunate parent. It's all well and good that I can come on here and say great things about my child, but I have never had to deal with many of the issues that I know other parents do. She started out as the happiest, most even tempered baby you could imagine. She pretty much fussed when she was hungry and tired, and except on rare occasions we were on top of those, so all we got were smiles and coos. She's also always been - as far as kids go - an incredibly good listener, and when she doesn't listen, it's never because she's being defiant, it's just because she's distracted. The one thing we did have to handle when she was around 3-4 was biting. Apparently one of the kids at the daycare was a biter and she decided to give it a try. We talked to her about it (she may or may not have grasped everything we said) and we told her that it was NOT acceptable - EVER, and that was that. We discussed it with the caregivers and requested that they let us know about even the slightest incident and it never came up again. Did I mention I feel lucky? That being said, though, my husband and I have put a LOT of effort into teaching her what is and isn't acceptable, and setting a good example. There is never any question for us which is going to 'win out' - having fun or being responsible parents - on our last cruise we did the 'Discover Scuba' excursion, and at each step we asked our daughter how she felt about proceeding and would have stopped if she'd wanted (thank goodness she didn't!!). The thing is, I've never felt like I've made a 'sacrifice' or even had to choose something I didn't want to do, because no matter what the options are, the best thing for her is always the one I want. My greatest hope is that she will feel about me the way I feel about my mom. :)

 

I'm really sorry about the length of this post... sometimes I just 'have to get it out'... many on this board already know this! :p

 

You so rock :) Thank you for such a great post!!!

 

It is funny, rereading my post I cringed and thought, "ohhh people are going to think I hate kids", I don't, I love them. My husband and I are about to take our second childfree vacation, the baby is almost 18 years old, his brother and sister are 21 and 24 and will be staying with the 18 year old baby

 

For the last 20 years we have always vacationed with the children, friends and family would ask us, "why always vacation with your kids?" our reply was, "we love being around them, they are our best company"

 

When I grew up I was more afraid of disappointing my parents then I was afraid of being grounded, they raised me to be respectful of people and my surroundings and to know the differance between right and wrong.

 

I knew I had raised my children the same way the night my honor roll son's friend phoned to say our son was drunk, he was 16 and at a high school party, the girl's parents LET the kids drink :mad:

Anyway he was sick and wanted his mom (me) we drove out there and picked him up. He staggered up to me and wrapped his arms around me and said, "I love you and I am so sorry" We spent the night at the emergancy ward watching the doctors try to insert an IV into veins so dehyrated they were collapsed. In the end he was fine and we didn't have to punish him because he learnt a valuable lesson. We, as his parents, set limits as to what he can and can't do, the girls parents recklessly choose not to have any limits at the party and our son paid the price.

 

I guess I am trying to say that installing good behaviour starts at birth...LOL...sigh...:o

[CanadianTwosome]

You so rock :) Thank you for such a great post!!!

 

It is funny, rereading my post I cringed and thought, "ohhh people are going to think I hate kids", I don't, I love them. My husband and I are about to take our second childfree vacation, the baby is almost 18 years old, his brother and sister are 21 and 24 and will be staying with the 18 year old baby

 

For the last 20 years we have always vacationed with the children, friends and family would ask us, "why always vacation with your kids?" our reply was, "we love being around them, they are our best company"

 

When I grew up I was more afraid of disappointing my parents then I was afraid of being grounded, they raised me to be respectful of people and my surroundings and to know the differance between right and wrong.

 

I knew I had raised my children the same way the night my honor roll son's friend phoned to say our son was drunk, he was 16 and at a high school party, the girl's parents LET the kids drink :mad:

Anyway he was sick and wanted his mom (me) we drove out there and picked him up. He staggered up to me and wrapped his arms around me and said, "I love you and I am so sorry" We spent the night at the emergancy ward watching the doctors try to insert an IV into veins so dehyrated they were collapsed. In the end he was fine and we didn't have to punish him because he learnt a valuable lesson. We, as his parents, set limits as to what he can and can't do, the girls parents recklessly choose not to have any limits at the party and our son paid the price.

 

I guess I am trying to say that installing good behaviour starts at birth...LOL...sigh...:o

 

Thank you, and you rock too! I had to laugh about disappointing your parents. I couldn't imagine a worse consequence to any behaviour than to hear those incredibly powerful words: 'I'm very disappointed in you.' Aaaaarrrrrggghhh!!!!! When my friends and I saw the movie 'Risky Business' in the theatre, when it came to the scene near the end when the parents arrive home and the mom sees a crack in her crystal egg and turns to Tom Cruise and says, 'Joel, I'm very disappointed in you,' my friend spun around and loudly (so the entire theatre heard I'm sure) proclaimed, 'IT'S YOUR MOM!!!!' :p

 

Often when we talk to our daughter about decisions, we point out that if she's considering doing something that she wouldn't want us to know about, it's undoubtedly a bad idea.

 

We're a bit off topic at this point, but I think it's relevant. Even though our daughter was 8 when she took her first cruise, her first 'big' vacation was to Disneyworld at the age of 5. At that point, the only thing we really had to work on was how to behave in a huge crowd - our rule was that she had to be no more than an arm's length from one of us at all times. She already knew what was and wasn't acceptable in dining rooms and public areas, what to do with garbage, and was well mannered and polite. She didn't 'grow into' these things, we were consistent with our expectations and she met them and learned through experience and example. We saw a little girl who appeared to be about 8 throwing a major temper tantrum as her dad pulled (dragged) her towards the park exit and my daughter turned to me with eyes wide like saucers and said, 'She shouldn't do that. She needs to go when it's time to go.' :)

[kitty9]

Cuizer2, I have to disagree with one of your points. Why would certain behaviors be acceptable on Carnival but not on one of the luxury lines? Just because one cruise experience is less expensive doesn't give passengers to behave worse. IMHO, unacceptable behavior is just that no matter what line you're on. An out of control child, or an adult for that matter, is out of control and not looked upon kindly, no matter what line you're on.

[Cuizer2]

Cuizer2, I have to disagree with one of your points. Why would certain behaviors be acceptable on Carnival but not on one of the luxury lines? Just because one cruise experience is less expensive doesn't give passengers to behave worse. IMHO, unacceptable behavior is just that no matter what line you're on. An out of control child, or an adult for that matter, is out of control and not looked upon kindly, no matter what line you're on.

You have read something into my post that was never there.

 

It has nothing to do with the price of the cruise and everything to do with the atmosphere (as I noted in my post - I mentioned atmosphere, not price). A public library is free, however, the people in a public library are less tolerant of misbehaving children than sports fan who have paid a lot of money to see their team play.

 

The same goes for restaurants and cruise ships. People in a four or five star restaurant are less tolerant of misbehaving children than people at Medieval Times because of the atmosphere, not because of the price of the meal.

 

The same with a cruise. Carnival will sometimes have dances and songs during dinner. In that kind of an atmosphere, a noisy child will be tolerated far better than on Crystal where the guests are dressed in suits and ties while boarding the ship. One of the luxury lines was going to offer a kids sail free promotion and the long time guest of that line complained stating that having that many kids on the cruise would ruin the "atmosphere". Mind you, that is before even one child even had a chance to pout.

[bplazo]

I do not think that it is acceptable to allow a child to crawl under a table, sit at a different table or be out of his chair at dinner. It is up to parents to entertain a child with crayons and a coloring book.

[lovesublime]

You so rock :) Thank you for such a great post!!!

 

It is funny, rereading my post I cringed and thought, "ohhh people are going to think I hate kids", I don't, I love them. My husband and I are about to take our second childfree vacation, the baby is almost 18 years old, his brother and sister are 21 and 24 and will be staying with the 18 year old baby

 

For the last 20 years we have always vacationed with the children, friends and family would ask us, "why always vacation with your kids?" our reply was, "we love being around them, they are our best company"

 

When I grew up I was more afraid of disappointing my parents then I was afraid of being grounded, they raised me to be respectful of people and my surroundings and to know the differance between right and wrong.

 

I knew I had raised my children the same way the night my honor roll son's friend phoned to say our son was drunk, he was 16 and at a high school party, the girl's parents LET the kids drink :mad:

Anyway he was sick and wanted his mom (me) we drove out there and picked him up. He staggered up to me and wrapped his arms around me and said, "I love you and I am so sorry" We spent the night at the emergancy ward watching the doctors try to insert an IV into veins so dehyrated they were collapsed. In the end he was fine and we didn't have to punish him because he learnt a valuable lesson. We, as his parents, set limits as to what he can and can't do, the girls parents recklessly choose not to have any limits at the party and our son paid the price.

 

I guess I am trying to say that installing good behaviour starts at birth...LOL...sigh...:o

 

 

I find your post interesting. Here in our state, underage kids can drink with parents permission, but a parent has to be present. If I were you, I would have punished him. Related, we have a 24 y/o who graduated from college in 2007. He went to school out of state and no amount of talking, guidance etc. prepared us for all the weekend 'frat' parties he attended. Those evenings usually ended up with 3:00 am 'drunken' phone calls telling us how great we were and it 'wasn't the alcohol talking'. We decided to blow it off and tell him his behavior was not acceptable and maybe he shouldn't be going to so many fraternity parties. He agreed and it eventually leveled off. BTW, he graduated on time and made great grades.

 

I'm just saying that your 16 y/o should be held accountable for his own bad behavior. In other words, I think it's detrimental to put the blame for his drinking on others (especially adults). These days, if kids want to drink, they're gonna find a way. I don't want to sound harsh, but what I'm trying to say is that I think too often, parents blame everyone else in the world for their kids bad behavior except for the kid. It think a 16 y/o knows better.

[ash4020]

I will admit I just wandered over here and I only read the first 2 pages or so. I just wanted to give a friendly warning to parents so this doesn't happen again.

 

I have waited tables for years. In that time, I have tripped over several children playing under tables that popped out at the wrong time. Once, I walked out of the kitchen with a tray with hot liquids on it (soup, beans, and I think gravy...anyway) and tripped over a kid. My knee connected with his lip and he ended up needing stitches and the soup burned him. I have had lasting problems with my back because of the way I fell. I felt horrible. I didn't see him because he was so close to the door and the tray was right in front of me. So please PLEASE don't let your kids play under the table, beside the table, or at another one (so they don't dart out in front of someone going back to the parents' table.)

[celle]

I have a DS(15) and DD(12). We have rarely had to discipline because they learned early that we will follow through. Normally the "look" is all I have to give.

 

My thoughts are that once a child can talk and understand you, as a parent you need to set the limits for proper behavior and follow through. I would never let my children crawl under the table or walk around the tables in the paths of other customers or waiters. I played a lot of tic-tac-toe and hangman with my children as we waited for our food. I did not expect them to just sit there. I made sure they had quiet activities that didn't interfere with anyone else to keep them occupied. If you plan to take your children out in public then you should be prepared to make sure they can act appropriately. I refuse to excuse poor behavior as the are just being kids (they still need boundries - some parents just don't know how to set them- distract them with a quiet table activity), they are hungry(then bring them a snack), they are tired (then you should have them home in bed, not dragging them out to a restaurant to disturb other peoples dinner). These are just excuses for a parent not doing his job as a parent.

 

JMHO since you asked for it.

 

I absolutely agree with you!

 

Or, as my Grandma used to say: "Any child old enough to prefer candy to carrots is old enough to learn good behaviour." :D

 

It doesn't matter at what point you set the limits, some parents being more relaxed than others, but you must set some limits and then be consistent in enforcing them. That is part of the job of being a parent.

 

To the OP: It is simply not acceptable to just wait for a child to "grow out of" some behaviours. For goodness' sake, with that attitude what happens when your teenager starts smoking dope? Wait for them to grow out of that, too?

 

Your child, at 3 years old, is quite old enough to have already learned how to behave at the table. Practice with him before you go on the next cruise - please! You don't have to be heavy-handed or blight his life - just explain that he is a "big boy" now, and then tell him what is "big boy" behaviour. Be prepared to bring books, crayons etc to keep him amused. If he "acts up", remove him straight away. When he has calmed down, quietly explain that you expect better of him.

 

We had three children in three and a half years, and they all learned quite young to behave well in public. And no, we never had to nag or bully them! We were so proud of them when we could take all three out for a special meal. :)