Greedy airlines

[Gardyloo]

...and SW still thrives despite sometimes having higher base (but not total) fares.

Okay, let's go to the tape...

 

How about a midwinter fleshpot break? Feb 19 - 22, BOS-LAS-BOS.

 

Cheapest SW web fare (via MDW, so change of plane both ways) - $456.50 all in.

 

Cheapest legacy fares -

 

UA, nonstop, $394 all in. Differential from WN, $62.50

AA, via DFW, $280 all in. Differential, $176.50

CO, via EWR, $250 all in. Differential, $206.50

DL, via MSP, $320 all in. Differential, $136.50

 

So add bag fees to those numbers and you're still saying WN is cheaper?

 

Is this cherry picking? Did I look for a city pair/dates where the legacies would all be cheaper than WN? No, but for sure those city pairs probably exist where WN smokes the legacies.

 

IMO if people paid as much attention to comparative shopping for $500-$1000 airline tickets (for 2 pax) as they do to other $500-$1000 purchases - a computer, maybe, or a dishwasher - I bet a lot of them would sing a different song.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Hi, as a pilot I thought I would chime in. I have seen our industry decimated by the economy. Many pilots, flight attendants are now furloughed but hey it's all good if you get your coke and peanuts, right!

 

To the OP, please do some research about the state of the airline industry, it should be very insightful.

 

Here is another idea if think airlines are greedy, you can always drive!

 

Thanks,

 

Schwimm

 

For decades I have worked in the avionics industry, but not for any airline.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Okay, let's go to the tape...

 

 

If you want to dance, I can dance.

 

Check those fares a few months ago when SW first opened up bookings for those dates. Oh, I guess you can't.

 

Puleeze, airline fares go up and down faster than a prostitute's underwear.

 

Refresh my memory - what cruise line departs from Lost Wages?

[Gardyloo]

If you want to dance, I can dance.

 

Check those fares a few months ago when SW first opened up bookings for those dates. Oh, I guess you can't.

 

Puleeze, airline fares go up and down faster than a prostitute's underwear.

 

Refresh my memory - what cruise line departs from Lost Wages?

Scoff away.

 

But okay, BOS-SEA, June 4/13 (plenty of boat people fly routes like this.)

 

WN - $515 via RNO, DEN

 

AS - $419 nonstop

DL - $368 via MSP/DTW

VX - $419 via SFO/LAX

AA - $461 via JFK/ORD

 

Etc.

 

I'm sure WN enjoys your money as much as the legacies. More, even. Go for it.

[schwimmair]

Airplanes are not designed to be profitable at 60+ dollars a barrel fuel. You simply can't put enough seats in them to be profitable. Combine this with 9/11 and the great recession (less passengers) and you have the perfect storm. One of the reasons that Southwest has done so well is that they gambled and hedged fuel and it paid off.

 

I am not a management cheerleader but what other options do airlines really have?

 

Royal Caribbean can and has imposed a $10 pp per night night charge if fuel reaches $65 dollars a barrel.

 

Schwimm

[fbgd]

The legacy airlines continue to shower their frequent travelers with absurd benefits that the casual traveler is then forced to subsidize. They need to abandon that losing venture.

 

Who'd have thought it? Airlines wanting to look after their best passengers? :rolleyes:

 

I fail to see how a once a year traveller (paying say $250 for a transcon roundtrip) is subsidizing the person who buys week in week out giving the airline tens of thousands of dollars over the course of a year.

 

The frequent flyers are the ones who subsidize the people who make one flight or so a year.

 

Just saying something over and over does not make it true. Facts, not emotionality are actually appreciated by a lot of us.

 

+1954757

 

When I fly on Southwest, it costs me NOTHING to change a flight unless there is a difference in fare. On the same flight, if the price goes down, I can get a credit - no charge - it costs NOTHING. Frequent fliers are charged the same for luggage as occasional fliers - NOTHING.

 

Since you've brought it up about half a dozen times why does it matter if the nickel and diming is zero. If they're charging you over the odds in the first place it doesn't matter!

 

On American Airlines last year, a flight I had to South America dropped in price by several hundred dollars. They were kind enough to keep half of the amount as a "change" fee. What a crock.

 

I don't see why most people think getting refunds on airline tickets is OK but not with any other commodity.

 

Do you go back to your gas station a couple of days later and request a refund because the price went down 20 cents per gallon? Did you call your financial advisor early last year and request a refund on any equities you'd purchased because people were buying them at 50% off when you bought in? Nah, didn't think so.

 

Airlines added luggage fees when the price of oil sky rocketed and cruise lines added a surcharge. The price of oil dropped and cruise lines removed the surcharge while the airlines continue to raise fees.

 

Cruise lines have a better business model than the legacy airlines.

 

How can you even compare the working of a cruise and an airline? They're incomparable besides the fact they both move people around a in a big shiny metal thing.

 

Southwest proved a long time ago the benefits of hedging fuel costs. There is no excuse.

 

If Southwest were so good at fuel hedging they wouldn't bother with the onerous task of flying aircraft about the country. :rolleyes:

[hdawson]

With hedging today, airlines are paying about 2.25 per gallon. Five years ago the price was about 1.00 or less. Today, I can fly from Raleigh to Ft Lauderdale for $78 on AirTran. About the same as five yrs ago. AirTran will be profitable for 2009 primarily becase of fees and low cost. And reducing number of aircraft (about 12% fewer seats) and deferring delivery of new planes till at least 2011. Not the basic fares.

 

Oh those nasty, greedy, capitalist, American corporations. We really need to get rid of the corporations that depend on profits and let the feds take care of us.

 

The American consumer demands low prices then complanes about narrow seats, no meals or poor service. But they still flood Walmart, Target, Macys. etc amd then complain that everything is made in China, India, Brasil or Mexico.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Scoff away.

 

 

I don't live in Bawstawn. Most fliers don't. Your mileage may vary, some assembly required. Batteries not included. We don't care.

[G'ma]

I fly Southwest whenever I can....mostly to/from Florida for cruising... Recently booked to Tucson and to San Diego.

 

Most all of the time, their fares are equal to or better than other airlines.... If you are at all flexible, the fares can be much, much lower.

 

Southwest, with their no-fee for baggage, or curb check-in - and the best ontime performance in the industry, best baggage delivery, friendly staff, employees and cabin attendance make it a bargain.....

 

They do what ALL airlines used to do; get you from Point A to Point B efficiently and at an excellent price.

 

What ruined the airline industry was deregulation.....I know, I was there. For over 30 years I watched them eat each other, kill off their young, chase away their passengers, die and disappear...all in effort to grab every last passenger. I've watched service go in the toilet, maintenance go in the toilet, bankruptcy...some by chance, some by choice, some on purpose, some by force.

 

I watched Borman kill Eastern and Icahn kill TWA..and others.

 

Today, air travel is unpleasant as it can be. There is no comfort, no amenities, rarely a smiling face or a pleasant voice.

 

Fortunately, Southwest still offers a lot.... It may not last forever but while they still treat me like a valued customer...and keep their prices low....and don't start charging for everything, I'll be a loyal flyer.

[Sargent_Schultz]

 

Oh those nasty, greedy, capitalist, American corporations. We really need to get rid of the corporations that depend on profits and let the feds take care of us.

 

Hmmm.. The Feds are making a tidy profit off of some corporations who decided to pay bailout money back. Not only a good investment for America, but amazing how some corporations can turn themselves about to avoid regulation. Hmmm.

 

Thanks for playing, please try again.

[Globaliser]

Southwest proved a long time ago the benefits of hedging fuel costs. There is no excuse.

Hedging is a gamble. One day, Southwest may lose badly, and if that happens they will then be in trouble.

 

There are precedents in this sector of the industry: Ryanair for one.

Yes, SW no longer has the cheapest base fares in all markets and they are still doing well. It doesn't matter. Passengers still like them better.

The total cost of travel on WN is often higher than the total cost of travel on other airlines. Sure, if passengers think that WN offers a better overall product and are prepared to pay a higher price, then let them go for it.

 

But complaining about baggage fees, if the total cost of travel including the baggage fees is still lower than a WN fare, is unreasonably trying to have your cake and eat it too.

The legacy airlines continue to shower their frequent travelers with absurd benefits that the casual traveler is then forced to subsidize.

This is very funny. You obviously have absolutely no idea how much money frequent travellers bring to the airline, compared to the chickenfeed that the once-a-year leisure traveller represents.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Consumers are not that ignorant. We do shop all airlines. On many routes, SW still is the price leader.

 

Complaints about luggage fees are perfectly valid. Look at what an in cabin pet costs on SW vs the legacy airlines. Something that costs the airline nothing and fits under the seat in front of you. It is absurd. What to check a third bag? Compare on SW to legacy carriers. You'll need a second mortgage on Delta.

 

I hope the frequent fliers don't pull a muscle patting themselves on the back. Even LAS has figured out they make a lot of money off of the occasional quarter slot gamblers. It's something SW figured out a long time ago and one reason many people prefer them.

 

The dinosaurs can try to hold onto the elitist class/caste system, but they sure are going to look funny flying around in stubby little overpriced planes. :D

[Sargent_Schultz]

Scoff away.

 

But okay, BOS-SEA, June 4/13 (plenty of boat people fly routes like this.)

 

WN - $515 via RNO, DEN

 

AS - $419 nonstop

DL - $368 via MSP/DTW

VX - $419 via SFO/LAX

AA - $461 via JFK/ORD

 

Etc.

 

I'm sure WN enjoys your money as much as the legacies. More, even. Go for it.

 

Gee, I can find $250 rt fares on SW for BOS-SEA - not one of their more popular routes and still NO LUGGAGE FEES.

[fbgd]

Gee, I can find $250 rt fares on SW for BOS-SEA - not one of their more popular routes and still NO LUGGAGE FEES.

 

For the dates the OP is quoting? I'm sure you and Gardyloo could play the 'Southwest is/is not cheaper routine' quoting various routings all day but what Gardyloo has proven is that Southwest aren't always the cheapest. That's a myth far too many people (especially on these boards) seem to believe.

 

Since it seems to have passed you by Southwest don't release their prices until the legacy carriers have been selling their seats for several months. Southwest may be the cheapest when they start selling their seats but if you'd bought before Southwest were selling it could well have been cheaper.

 

I guess we'll see how the playing field changes when the most lucrative WN fuel hedges begin to expire...I suspect there will still be plenty of KoolAid to go around though.:rolleyes:

[Sargent_Schultz]

For the dates the OP is quoting? I'm sure you and Gardyloo could play the 'Southwest is/is not cheaper routine' quoting various routings all day but what Gardyloo has proven is that Southwest aren't always the cheapest. That's a myth far too many people (especially on these boards) seem to believe.

 

Since it seems to have passed you by Southwest don't release their prices until the legacy carriers have been selling their seats for several months. Southwest may be the cheapest when they start selling their seats but if you'd bought before Southwest were selling it could well have been cheaper.

 

I guess we'll see how the playing field changes when the most lucrative WN fuel hedges begin to expire...I suspect there will still be plenty of KoolAid to go around though.:rolleyes:

 

For the first two random dates that I chose. Nobody is saying Southwest is always cheaper. Step away from the KoolAid yourself.

 

As previously mentioned, SW will allow you a credit if you find they are selling your flights for less than what you paid. No legacy airline will do that without an obscene change fee. It is rare that I am not able to take advantage of that and use the credit for a future flight.

 

The most lucrative SW hedges expired long ago and nobody, including SW hedges 100%. With synthetic jet fuel hitting the market in a couple of years or so, hedging may become a thing of the past. The big boys will have to think up new lies for why they can't make a profit.

[klfrodo]

Southwest flies to Seattle, you should try them sometime! :p

 

.

 

I took your advise and look them up as if I were going on a cruise out of Miami. Which we usually do. We also usually fly in a couple of days early:

 

SEA to MIA/FLL area and return

AS 6/3 - 6/12 $484 round trip 5.5 hrs travel each way

WN 6/3- 6/12 $358 round trip multiple stops and a plane change - ~ 12 hrs each way.

 

Out of pocket expense is not the ONLY determining factor here. 6 hr travel day vs. 12 hr travel day. No comparison

[Sargent_Schultz]

I took your advise and look them up as if I were going on a cruise out of Miami. Which we usually do. We also usually fly in a couple of days early:

 

SEA to MIA/FLL area and return

AS 6/3 - 6/12 $484 round trip 5.5 hrs travel each way

WN 6/3- 6/12 $358 round trip multiple stops and a plane change - ~ 12 hrs each way.

 

Out of pocket expense is not the ONLY determining factor here. 6 hr travel day vs. 12 hr travel day. No comparison

 

Now if only you would cruise from the left coast and the boston bean would cruise from FLL, you might have something.

 

I do fly other airlines and Alaska is a very good one. I like that I can get one way FF tickets on them. They also have very good customer service, unlike some crappy legacy carriers.

[fbgd]

Now if only you would cruise from the left coast and the boston bean would cruise from FLL, you might have something.

 

I have it on good authority that Gardyloo is based in the Pacific Northwest. Besides since when should people cruise from the coast they live on? :confused: Maybe only to illustrate your point...

[Sargent_Schultz]

I have it on good authority that Gardyloo is based in the Pacific Northwest. Besides since when should people cruise from the coast they live on? :confused: Maybe only to illustrate your point...

 

Live, cruise and fly where you want.

 

I am fed up with being nickle and dimed by the inefficient legacy airlines and will go out of my way to avoid doing business with them, when possible. The next time they go bankrupt, I hope they stay bankrupt. Sooner or later we are going to have to bail their pension plans out, anyway.

[Globaliser]

The next time they go bankrupt, I hope they stay bankrupt.

I agree with this, though. The US airline industry would be a lot healthier if, over the last 10 years, "bankrupt" had meant "out of business". But even if that had happened, the skies wouldn't only have WN-style airlines. They don't do any serious long-distance flying, for a start.

[AZjohn]

I think I'm going to take 6rugrats advice stated on all her posts:

 

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then they beat you with experience.:rolleyes:

[Gardyloo]

...SW still thrives despite sometimes having higher base (but not total) fares.

This was the line I objected to, and sought to show to be inaccurate.

 

Consumers are not that ignorant. We do shop all airlines. On many routes, SW still is the price leader...

In my experience, WN treats pax in monopoly markets in a very similar manner to which the legacies treat pax in similar situations. Profit optimization is still a valid business model, no matter what the industry.

 

...The dinosaurs can try to hold onto the elitist class/caste system, but they sure are going to look funny flying around in stubby little overpriced planes. :D

Perhaps you failed to notice that 2 years ago WN started offering "business select" pricing for WN "elites?" Pay 20-30% more, get to board first, get FF bonus miles, get a free drink...

 

WN plays the market segmentation game as well as the legacies. Maybe better.

 

Airline loyalty is a funny thing. I guess it helps us simplify otherwise difficult decision processes. "Southwest is cheaper" comes easily off the tongue, even if it's not true, just like saying "United is always late" or "the unions have killed the industry." One-liners, all, and generally not borne out once one actually looks at the facts. But easier to recite.

 

I have elite status with a legacy carrier (AA) but my reasons for "loyalty" are extremely straightforward: I get more out of it than I put in, in monetary and other measurable terms, not feel-good.

 

Because of my status, I get upgraded virtually all the time, so no baggage fees, no cattle car seating, no waiting in the long lines at the airport, no buy-on-board meals or drinks. I pay the same price for economy flights as everyone else (often less, as I know how to game the system better) but sit up front. I use the elite security lines, get my bags first, and can use lounges while waiting for planes - often with free meals, booze, wi-fi, and showers.

 

For the last many years, I've annually redeemed frequent flyer miles for myself, my wife, my family and friends, with a rough value of $10,000 - $20,000 per year - business class trips to Africa or South America, upgrades on transcontinental or transatlantic flights, and so on. I seldom "pay" more than 1 cent per mile for the miles I redeem, and I never redeem them for flights or upgrades with a value of less than 4 cents, usually closer to 5, per mile flown. For me, frequent flyer miles are a profit center.

 

The point of which is not to elicit "oohs" from others, it's to say I treat my air travel like any other commodity I pay for. I want to maximize my personal profit as much as possible, and I do the numbers. Does American Airlines love me? Even like me? No, and why should they? They're a multi-billion dollar corporation, just like Southwest or GM for that matter.

 

Do I love them back? Hell, no; the minute the cost/benefit consequences of my "loyalty" tanks, I'll see if United, or Delta, or Alaska or... can do better, given my flying patterns. I'm in it for me, not for them. I sure wouldn't want Gerard Arpey saying my eulogy if I splash on approach to JFK.

 

But of course everyone's mileage may vary. I hate Cheerios but love Kashi Go-Lean. But I'm not going to attack General Mills for making them; I just don't buy them.

[Sargent_Schultz]

I am quite familiar with what SW and other airlines offer including the ability to pay $10 for early boarding numbers. $10 is still quite the bargain.

 

And unions and old inefficient planes are what is killing the legacy airlines, not the cost of fuel.

 

I am a member of most legacy FF programs and have switched around over the years, but loyal to them no more. Credit cards allow me to transfer points to most of them for FF tickets and also admission to most airline clubs.

 

No one can dispute that SW is the "funner" airline and more innovative than the big boys.

 

Speaking of business travelers, the sharp ones are fickle. When SW was beginning, they attracted new customers by cheap fares. The 800 pound gorillas were the ones to cut fares to a level that guaranteed they (the blood sucking gorillas) were losing money. The new kid on the block could not afford to hemorrhage cash like the big boys so changed strategy. They raised fares and gave a bottle of booze to those who booked on short notice and paid the highest fares. The price war collapsed; the dinosaurs caved.

 

The legacy airlines in their present state are doomed.

[Sargent_Schultz]

I agree with this, though. The US airline industry would be a lot healthier if, over the last 10 years, "bankrupt" had meant "out of business". But even if that had happened, the skies wouldn't only have WN-style airlines. They don't do any serious long-distance flying, for a start.

 

I think there will be more SW style airlines when airlines start flying point to point and drop the antiquated hub and ATC bull.

 

No, SW doesn't fly nonstop coast to coast much less world wide. But they are starting to form alliances and almost purchased Frontier. They are still growing but know better than to grow too fast. For the long hauls you are still at the mercy of legacy airlines, for the most part, for now.

[jetwet1]

I agree with this, though. The US airline industry would be a lot healthier if, over the last 10 years, "bankrupt" had meant "out of business". But even if that had happened, the skies wouldn't only have WN-style airlines. They don't do any serious long-distance flying, for a start.

 

Isn't that the truth, though that would probably give the remaining airlines the power to raise the prices and that would only have people on here crying about how high ticket prices are.

 

I took your advise and look them up as if I were going on a cruise out of Miami. Which we usually do. We also usually fly in a couple of days early:

 

SEA to MIA/FLL area and return

AS 6/3 - 6/12 $484 round trip 5.5 hrs travel each way

WN 6/3- 6/12 $358 round trip multiple stops and a plane change - ~ 12 hrs each way.

 

Out of pocket expense is not the ONLY determining factor here. 6 hr travel day vs. 12 hr travel day. No comparison

 

Did you look at what VX was charging ?

 

And unions and old inefficient planes are what is killing the legacy airlines, not the cost of fuel.

 

 

Just to point out, Southwest is a union airline, they pay some of the highest wages in the business.

 

Also, you are kind of contradicting yourself with that line, other than fuel in what ways are say the MD80's less efficient other than fuel.

 

But they are starting to form alliances and almost purchased Frontier.

 

True and that may be the way forward for them.

 

Throughout it's history Southwest has bought airlines, the last one that I can think of would be Morris Air.