Princess Golden- Hygiene

[spyro1952]

We were on the Golden last October. We were quite surprised to find that hand sanitizers were not to be found in or outside the dining rooms with the exception of the buffet. When I mentioned this to the maitre'd he politely told me that they really don't do much good and hospitals are not using them much any more. WRONG! The Canaletto dining room where we dined each night was down a flight of stairs to a lower deck and there were no rest rooms on that part of the ship. If you held on to the handrails on the stairway after washing your hands on a higher deck, you were subject to whatever bacteria was there from the person ahead of you. When I mentioned this on Cruisecritic I got several snarky comments saying that the sanitizers were no good for viruses. Perhaps so, but what about plain old bacteria?

 

They're not good for bacteria either. Constant exposure to these hand sanitizers cause the bacteria to replicate and become resistant. Ever hear of MRSA? Ever hear of VRSA or the community acquired versions of these super bugs? Our best known antibiotics can not kill these bacteria because they have become resistant so these super bugs will kill you if you get an infection.

If you are so concerned, do what the ship & CDC recommend:

1. Wash your hands with soap under warm running water (30 secs) with friction several times a day and after using the rest room, before meals etc.

2. Use the restroom in your stateroom as much as possible.

3. Keep your hands away from your nose and mouth.

4. Properly dispose of your tissues etc.

 

 

[MoreLemonPledge]

They're not good for bacteria either. Constant exposure to these hand sanitizers cause the bacteria to replicate and become resistant. Ever hear of MRSA? Ever hear of VRSA or the community acquired versions of these super bugs? Our best known antibiotics can not kill these bacteria because they have become resistant so these super bugs will kill you if you get an infection.

If you are so concerned, do what the ship & CDC recommend:

1. Wash your hands with soap under warm running water (30 secs) with friction several times a day and after using the rest room, before meals etc.

2. Use the restroom in your stateroom as much as possible.

3. Keep your hands away from your nose and mouth.

4. Properly dispose of your tissues etc.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with your first couple of sentences. The so-called 'hand sanitizers' most commonly in use do NOT contain any antibiotics. They are composed primarily of alcohol and a lubricant. Alcohol works by lysing the cell walls of the bacteria. The bacteria do NOT develop an immunity to alcohol as it has with MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staph Aureus). MRSA is a bacteria which had developed an immunity to a specific antibiotic. Alcohol does not work in the same way as an antibiotic. It denatures the proteins - it works in a PHYSICAL way rather than a biological or chemical manner. I have not heard it suggested that bacteria or viruses have or can resist this action. Just as a human may develop an immunity to certain diseases by exposure to them, we can not develop an immunity to having an anvil dropped on our head. Biological/chemical action vs. physical action.

 

Now, there are certain bacteria, especially those that form endospores (eg. Anthrax), which are not as susceptible to the action of the alcohol and so may not be killed by its contact. But this is due to the nature of the endospore, not due to a developed immunity to the alcohol. As well, certain viruses (influenza) are largely transmitted through direct inhalation, in which case all the hand washing in the world won't protect you if you should be directly exposed to air-borne particles. Further to this, a person's individual susceptibility to disease plays a huge role in disease transmission.

 

 

ETA: non-alcohol based hand sanitizers are a different breed and act in a different manner. But in MY personal experience, hand sanitizers made available to the public are almost exclusively of the alcohol-based variety.

 

Just like anything, the success of the program depends entirely on the compliance of the participants. Your subsequent points on hand-washing are valid. The fear-mongering about developed resistance to alcohol-based hand sanitizers is not. Should you have any data to support your opening sentiments, I would love to consider it.

[MoreLemonPledge]

In addition, the public offering of hand sanitizers relies on their proper use - 30 seconds of rubbing on the hands -for maximum effectiveness. If you are unable to practice proper hygiene on your own, it is doubtful you can be relied upon to use the sanitizer as directed. A lot of people get so excited by the sight of the food at the buffet that they couldn't possibly not grab a spoon and dig in immediately.

[janacin]

They're not good for bacteria either. Constant exposure to these hand sanitizers cause the bacteria to replicate and become resistant. Ever hear of MRSA? Ever hear of VRSA or the community acquired versions of these super bugs? Our best known antibiotics can not kill these bacteria because they have become resistant so these super bugs will kill you if you get an infection.

If you are so concerned, do what the ship & CDC recommend:

1. Wash your hands with soap under warm running water (30 secs) with friction several times a day and after using the rest room, before meals etc.

2. Use the restroom in your stateroom as much as possible.

3. Keep your hands away from your nose and mouth.

4. Properly dispose of your tissues etc.

 

 

We're not talking about antibiotics. We're talking about alcohol based hand sanitizers. It they're not effective, why is it that every hospital room in Los Angeles has them and hospital personnel are required to use them when they enter a patient's room and when they leave?

[pablo222]

The Canaletto dining room where we dined each night was down a flight of stairs to a lower deck and there were no rest rooms on that part of the ship. If you held on to the handrails on the stairway after washing your hands on a higher deck, you were subject to whatever bacteria was there from the person ahead of you.

 

Save yourself!

 

When you finish washing your hands, take a paper towel and

use it to grasp the handrail.

[spyro1952]

We're not talking about antibiotics. We're talking about alcohol based hand sanitizers. It they're not effective, why is it that every hospital room in Los Angeles has them and hospital personnel are required to use them when they enter a patient's room and when they leave?

 

 

I am not talking about antibiotics either - I'm talking about hand sanitizers that are ETOH based but also have other antibacterial properties that cause changes to basic genetic structure of bacteria and easily cause bacteria to "morph" into resistant bacteria. The more exposure, the greater the chance of developing resistant bacteria. LA hospital personnel are also required to wash their hands before and after they leave someone's room, which research has proven MORE effective than using hand sanitizers only, especially against resistant bacteria such as MRSA, VRSA, & resistant strains of e coli.

[jlp20]

...It they're not effective, why is it that every hospital room in Los Angeles has them and hospital personnel are required to use them when they enter a patient's room and when they leave?

 

The answer to your question is the same why the cruise line FIRST installed them, to give the perception of safety.

 

You see someone putting goop on their hands and it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

 

When this subject came up so many years ago on these boards I bothered to do some research. Bacteria will die if in contact with FULL STRENGTH ALCOHOL for about 5 seconds. Since your hands can’t take full strength alcohol the diluted crap will need to be wet on your hands for more than 30 seconds. Since the stuff is made to quickly evaporate, you will have to keep about ¼ cup of this stuff on your hands to be effective against bacteria. To kill a virus, multiply the time by 10.

 

Now the reason the goop was pulled of the cruise ships was the dreaded bean counters. Why waste money on hand goop that doesn’t work.

[1 HappyCruiser]

With all the money & effort they spent on the sanitizers in the past it did no better or worse than pushing people to use it. The virus still broke out either way. If it make you feel better using it, go right ahead but I wash my hands prior to eating & touch nothing along the way to the buffet or dining room that can be avoided.

[Astro Flyer]

Whether someone has a cold, flu, norovirus or just doesn't feel well for any reason, the safest thing to do is stay in your cabin & get room service until feeling better.

 

That should help to not spread sickness to your fellow passengers.

[MoreLemonPledge]

I am not talking about antibiotics either - I'm talking about hand sanitizers that are ETOH based but also have other antibacterial properties that cause changes to basic genetic structure of bacteria and easily cause bacteria to "morph" into resistant bacteria. The more exposure, the greater the chance of developing resistant bacteria. LA hospital personnel are also required to wash their hands before and after they leave someone's room, which research has proven MORE effective than using hand sanitizers only, especially against resistant bacteria such as MRSA, VRSA, & resistant strains of e coli.

 

The majority of publicly offered hand sanitizers are alcohol. What other 'antibacterial properties' are you refering to?

 

From Scienceblog.com:

 

Alcohol rubs cause (bacterial) mutation and resistance.

Truth or Myth?

Myth

1. Dead microorganisms don’t mutate. Alcohol rubs (biocides) kill microorganisms.

2. Current scientific evidence has not shown a link exists between the use of topical antimicrobial formulations and antiseptic or antibiotic resistance.

3. Antiseptics (biocides) have multiple (thousands) of nonspecific killing sites on and in the microbial cell which cannot easily mutate.

4. Antibiotics and antibacterial soaps (triclosan) have one very specific killing site on and in the microbial cell which can easily mutate.

5. Antibiotic resistance has no affect on the effectiveness of (biocides) antiseptics.

References: Jones R.D. Bacterial resistance and topical antimicrobial wash products. Am. J. Infect. 1999 Aug: 27(4):351-63. Barry A.L., Fuchs, P.C., Brown, S.D. Lack of Effect of Antibiotic Resistance on Susceptibility of Microorganisms to Chlorhexidine gluconate and Povidone iodine. Eur. J. Clin. Microbiol. Inf. Dis. 1999, 18: 920-921

 

Plus, you're changing your argument. Your initial point was that "hand sanitizers are bad". You have changed that to "hand sanitizers should not replace regular soap and water washing". Nobody has said the you should forego soap and water in favor of hand sanitzers. They can be used effectively in conjunction with each other.

 

Can you show any studies that support your assertion that ALCOHOL BASED hand sanitizers encourage bacterial mutation? If not, you are simpley spouting personal paranoia.

[MoreLemonPledge]

I am not talking about antibiotics either - I'm talking about hand sanitizers that are ETOH based but also have other antibacterial properties that cause changes to basic genetic structure of bacteria and easily cause bacteria to "morph" into resistant bacteria. The more exposure, the greater the chance of developing resistant bacteria. LA hospital personnel are also required to wash their hands before and after they leave someone's room, which research has proven MORE effective than using hand sanitizers only, especially against resistant bacteria such as MRSA, VRSA, & resistant strains of e coli.

 

 

I can't believe I missed this. You say " easily cause bacteria to "morph" into resistant bacteria"

Bacteria do NOT "easily morph". There are thousands of antibiotics on the market. There are only a few strains of bacteria that have evolved to resistance over long periods of time. Should we be concerned about the proper use of ANTIBIOTICS? Absolutely! Should we be paranoid and spreading misinformation about the use of alcohol based hand sanitizers without the benefit of backing empirical evidence, particularily when existing research supports the contrary? Doubtful.

I for one will continue washing my hands responsibly and supplementing that with the use of alcohol-based hand sanitizer when the situation warrents.

[cruiseron36]

This thread is turning into a slam-bang similar to dress code and food threads.

 

Wash your hands frequently and use or don't use the sanitizer. Just don't handle all the items in the buffet before you select the one you want.

[1 HappyCruiser]

Whether someone has a cold, flu, norovirus or just doesn't feel well for any reason, the safest thing to do is stay in your cabin & get room service until feeling better.

 

That should help to not spread sickness to your fellow passengers.

 

Other than Noro I doubt if you could convince anyone to stay in their room on their vacation. Even then, with Noro it's the ships requirements that forces them to be quarantined & not because they choose to.

[jlp20]

Like I stated in my first response, this whole subject comes up about every six months....

[janacin]

I am not talking about antibiotics either - I'm talking about hand sanitizers that are ETOH based but also have other antibacterial properties that cause changes to basic genetic structure of bacteria and easily cause bacteria to "morph" into resistant bacteria. The more exposure, the greater the chance of developing resistant bacteria. LA hospital personnel are also required to wash their hands before and after they leave someone's room, which research has proven MORE effective than using hand sanitizers only, especially against resistant bacteria such as MRSA, VRSA, & resistant strains of e coli.

 

Certainly in a perfect world everyone who enters the dining room should have a pair of freshly washed hands but, you and I know that that is not always the case. There's enough hand shaking, handrail touching, elevator button pushing, that goes on between the restroom and the dining room, especially on the Golden where restrooms are not on the same deck as some of the dining rooms. If the sanitizers offer a modicum of protection, they are worthwhile. In the meantime we will continue to scrub our hands and carry around our little bottles of Purel.

[MichTraveler]

We got off the Golden Princess a few weeks ago too. The DH and I both noticed that while the buffet has the hand sanitizers, there were MANY people who did not use them. On one of our cruises a year or two ago, the first day or two Princess had an employee at the sanitizer to "train" diners to use it. This cruise we even saw people going in the "out". We tried to eat most of our meals in the MDR but prefer the buffet for breakfast. Don't know if this change was mostly this ship or if other Princess ships have all reduced their effort to force the issue.

[Colo Cruiser]

We got off the Golden Princess a few weeks ago too. The DH and I both noticed that while the buffet has the hand sanitizers, there were MANY people who did not use them. On one of our cruises a year or two ago, the first day or two Princess had an employee at the sanitizer to "train" diners to use it. This cruise we even saw people going in the "out". We tried to eat most of our meals in the MDR but prefer the buffet for breakfast. Don't know if this change was mostly this ship or if other Princess ships have all reduced their effort to force the issue.

 

 

Its hit and miss whether they have someone squirting it into peoples hands or not on all the ships we have sailed on in the last year or 2.

[cruiseron36]

When they first started using the sanitizer my wife used it and wound up in the medical department with a rash. This only cost us $100. She doesn't use it anymore but washes her hands thouroughly before entering dining areas.

[spyro1952]

I can't believe I missed this. You say " easily cause bacteria to "morph" into resistant bacteria"

Bacteria do NOT "easily morph". There are thousands of antibiotics on the market. There are only a few strains of bacteria that have evolved to resistance over long periods of time. Should we be concerned about the proper use of ANTIBIOTICS? Absolutely! Should we be paranoid and spreading misinformation about the use of alcohol based hand sanitizers without the benefit of backing empirical evidence, particularily when existing research supports the contrary? Doubtful.

 

I for one will continue washing my hands responsibly and supplementing that with the use of alcohol-based hand sanitizer when the situation warrents.

 

Here is the empirical evidence, direct from the CDC: please educate yourself. Take particular note:

"antibiotic resistance is now considered one of the world's biggest health problems."

"The FDC NPAD: there was a lack of evidence supporting consumer products including handwashes, body washes, etc. containing antibacterial additives over similar products containing no antibacterial additives."

Do you want a list of current resistant bacteria? Did you know that most mass marketed ETOH based sanitizers don't even contain the recommended amt of ETOH??? Please share your existing research that contradicts this!

[1 HappyCruiser]

Here is the empirical evidence, direct from the CDC: please educate yourself. Take particular note:

"antibiotic resistance is now considered one of the world's biggest health problems."

"The FDC NPAD: there was a lack of evidence supporting consumer products including handwashes, body washes, etc. containing antibacterial additives over similar products containing no antibacterial additives."

Do you want a list of current resistant bacteria? Did you know that most mass marketed ETOH based sanitizers don't even contain the recommended amt of ETOH??? Please share your existing research that contradicts this!

 

I truly believe it. If there were nothing else around & that's all that were available I'd use it rather than nothing at all but if I just washed my hands before leaving my cabin & the entrance person wants to squirt that stuff on my hands before entering the DR, I'll accept it unwillingly but just flip it on the floor before proceeding. There's something about the residue that's yucky & I'd prefer to eat with out it on my hands.

[caribill]

Its hit and miss whether they have someone squirting it into peoples hands or not on all the ships we have sailed on in the last year or 2.

 

On a RCCL ship this year, the buffet area only had one entrance and there was always a staff person making sure every person entering the area received the squirt.

 

Not as easy to do on the Princess ships that have up to eight entrances into the buffet areas.

[spyro1952]

The majority of publicly offered hand sanitizers are alcohol. What other 'antibacterial properties' are you refering to?

 

From Scienceblog.com:

 

Alcohol rubs cause (bacterial) mutation and resistance.

Truth or Myth?

Myth

1. Dead microorganisms don’t mutate. Alcohol rubs (biocides) kill microorganisms. Bacteria can live outside of the body

2. Current scientific evidence has not shown a link exists between the use of topical antimicrobial formulations and antiseptic or antibiotic resistance. Really, you might want to tell the CDC this

3. Antiseptics (biocides) have multiple (thousands) of nonspecific killing sites on and in the microbial cell which cannot easily mutate.

4. Antibiotics and antibacterial soaps (triclosan) have one very specific killing site on and in the microbial cell which can easily mutate.

5. Antibiotic resistance has no affect on the effectiveness of (biocides) antiseptics.

References: Jones R.D. Bacterial resistance and topical antimicrobial wash products. Am. J. Infect. 1999 Aug: 27(4):351-63. Barry A.L., Fuchs, P.C., Brown, S.D. Lack of Effect of Antibiotic Resistance on Susceptibility of Microorganisms to Chlorhexidine gluconate and Povidone iodine. Eur. J. Clin. Microbiol. Inf. Dis. 1999, 18: 920-921

 

Plus, you're changing your argument. Your initial point was that "hand sanitizers are bad". You have changed that to "hand sanitizers should not replace regular soap and water washing". Nobody has said the you should forego soap and water in favor of hand sanitzers. They can be used effectively in conjunction with each other.

 

Can you show any studies that support your assertion that ALCOHOL BASED hand sanitizers encourage bacterial mutation? If not, you are simpley spouting personal paranoia.

 

You're quoting incorrect science: the CDC recommends hand washing and sanitizers as a substitute if soap and H2O are not available. Not in conjunction with unless you are in a hospital environment. Unless the sanitizer contains over 65% ETOH, it is not effective and most mass market sanitizers do not come close to that amt of ETOH

 

Sorry, scienceblog.com does not qualify as evidence and your articles are 11 years old and was only 1 study. All of your information is totally incorrect. Here are two links to the CDC papers that discusses the hazards of hand sanitizers from 2006 and the problems of antibiotics and resistance.

http://www.cdc.gov/NCIDOD/EID/vol12no03/05-0955.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/getsmart/antibiotic-use/anitbiotic-resistance-faqs

 

 

[MoreLemonPledge]

You're quoting incorrect science: the CDC recommends hand washing and sanitizers as a substitute if soap and H2O are not available. Not in conjunction with unless you are in a hospital environment. Unless the sanitizer contains over 65% ETOH, it is not effective and most mass market sanitizers do not come close to that amt of ETOH

 

Sorry, scienceblog.com does not qualify as evidence and your articles are 11 years old and was only 1 study. All of your information is totally incorrect. Here are two links to the CDC papers that discusses the hazards of hand sanitizers from 2006 and the problems of antibiotics and resistance.

www.cdc.gov/NCIDOD/EID/vol12no03/05-0955.htm

www.cdc.gov/getsmart/antibiotic-use/anitbiotic-resistance-faqs

 

 

 

First link is to an article stating the efficacy and availability of different concentrations of alcohol in hand sanitizers. Nobody here, including myself has advocated using low-concentration of alcohol in hand santitizers. So this link is not useful.

 

Second link is dead. page not found. But the amount shown in the link above would indicate it is about ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE. There are NO antibiotics in ALCOHOL based hand sanitizers.

 

Since you can't focus on an argument, I'm done. But please reconsider your spreading of misinformation and hysteria. You seem to possess enough cursory information to sound somewhat credible to the uneducated, but not enough to be actually credible. This is a dangerous combination. I urge those who are interested to do their own research and then wash your hands. Those keyboards are nasty.

[spyro1952]

First link is to an article stating the efficacy and availability of different concentrations of alcohol in hand sanitizers. Nobody here, including myself has advocated using low-concentration of alcohol in hand santitizers. So this link is not useful.

 

Second link is dead. page not found. But the amount shown in the link above would indicate it is about ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE. There are NO antibiotics in ALCOHOL based hand sanitizers.

 

Since you can't focus on an argument, I'm done. But please reconsider your spreading of misinformation and hysteria. You seem to possess enough cursory information to sound somewhat credible to the uneducated, but not enough to be actually credible. This is a dangerous combination. I urge those who are interested to do their own research and then wash your hands. Those keyboards are nasty.

 

Keep using your middle school web sites for your info. FYI - I have a PhD, have taught pharmacology classes, pathophysiology classes.

[MoreLemonPledge]

Keep using your middle school web sites for your info. FYI - I have a PhD, have taught pharmacology classes, pathophysiology classes.

 

Yes, my first web site was rudimentary, but so was the information. The other websites were provided by you.

The information you have stated is so patently false, I have to question your actual credientials. So you say.

 

This is like teaching a cat to read.