Pre- & Post- Cruise Experience Failing for UK Pax

[nuneham]

Attn Bill Leiber, please. Could you please consider two current threads together - one relating to unsatisfactory transfers and the other to pre-cruise hotel issues. They both highlight a problem which has been aired here before: that for passengers from the UK there can be an enormous discrepancy between the quality of the onboard experience and the arrangements for our travel and accommodation. Non-direct flights, hours spent at airports and poor hotels are not conducive to an all-round excellent experience. Passengers from the UK booking a flight/cruise option have a higher level of consumer protection than those booking the two elements separately, which may influence their choice. So many of us say that we want to stay with ACC, please don't make it so difficult for us to love you without reservation.

[Jade13]

Passengers from the UK booking a flight/cruise option have a higher level of consumer protection than those booking the two elements separately, which may influence their choice.

 

I have a question. Do most UK passengers pay by credit card, and therefore have protection by the credit card company?

 

A number of years ago when a large online agency went out of business and had been charging the passengers credit cards to themselves instead of the cruise line, passengers were able to get their monies back from the credit card companies (Visa, MasterCard, American Express) who took the hit. Of course they had to re-book the cruise and most of the issues than had to do with the fact the costs were than higher (either the price or they no longer had the TA's promised OBC).

 

I recall one UK pax had paid over 60K by bank transfer to SilverSea. I did learn later that SilverSea took the hit and accommodated this couple (of course SilverSea is privately owned and by all accounts continues to operate at a loss).

[uktog]

The position in the UK is complex and whilst there is credit card protection it is not the same as is enjoyed elsewhere

 

Firstly if a passenger books through a travel agent, if they wish to pay by credit card, most agencies charge an additional handling fee of 2-2.5%, therefore for many passengers, that is a cost they chose to avoid, so they pay by debit card, which has no protection.

 

When booking through a travel agent it is standard practice that your credit card will be charged by the travel agent, not the cruise line. In this case you will be protected if the travel agent fails, however, depending on the timing of this, you might have to pay for your cruise again and then get the money back from the card company at a later time.

Provided you are working with a reputable travel agent, if they or the cruise line fails, you would also be protected via the ABTA (Assoc of British Travel agencies)/ATOL bonds - again you would might have to rebook and reclaim. When a TA fails, the cruiseline might take the hit - indeed, both Celebrity and Azamara have done that this summer for all passengers who had paid money to a major agent that went under. All people had their bookings honoured, though they lost their on board credit being provided by the TA.

 

The main reason people will book their flights, accommodation and cruise as one package through the cruiseline became very clear during the ash debacle. If I book all three together, and my flight does not take place for some reason and I miss the cruise, I am automatically covered by the cruiseline for my refund as the whole contract is frustrated by the flight failure, so passengers in this situation were able to sort out rebooking onto another cruise quickly. If however I have split it off, I have to go through my travel insurance to claim and will have a delay and maybe even limits on what I get back

 

Back to the credit card - it is however an irrelevance in the situation being discussed by the passengers here because no UK card insurance will cover you in the situation being discussed, - accommodation was provided, as was the cruise and the flights.

Although it was far from ideal accommodation, and there are lessons to be learned here no doubt in that, it would be difficult to go to a small claims court and argue that the contract was not fulfilled. Most you would be able to get back might be the cost of incidentals such as the taxis but there is no guarantee you would succeed in that

[Balloon Man]

An excellent exposition from uktog. However I think it worth explaining that not all debit card companies treat customers the same way. I understand a Visa debit card offers significantly better protection for shoppers that others, such as Maestro. Their scheme is called Visa Debit Chargeback and any bank that issues a Visa debit card has to comply with the scheme. You can claim money back if the goods you buy are damaged, or the product or services are not delivered. There is no limit on what you can claim. But you have to claim within 120 days of the date you expected the goods to be delivered or the firm going bust. However while the credit card companies are legally bound under UK law the Visa debit card scheme is voluntary. I pay for my cruises using a Visa debit card as it saves 2.5% - and hope I will never regret it! Alan.

[nuneham]

I find all of these financial intricacies fascinating but to me they're a distraction from the original question - why can't a company which prides itself on service and delivers superbly onboard provide something better before and after. I wouldn't expect AZ service in the air or at a pre-cruise hotel but I would like my joyful anticipation to survive my flights and any accommodation.

[Joecors]

The position in the UK is complex and whilst there is credit card protection it is not the same as is enjoyed elsewhere

Firstly if a passenger books through a travel agent, if they wish to pay by credit card, most agencies charge an additional handling fee of 2-2.5%, therefore for many passengers, that is a cost they chose to avoid, so they pay by debit card, which has no protection.....

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We tend to pay the initial deposit by credit card limiting the handling fee and the balance by debit card. This, I believe, gives protection for t if the wheel falls off the barrow (apologies for the inappopriate analogy)

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Back to the credit card - it is however an irrelevance in the situation being discussed by the passengers here because no UK card insurance will cover you in the situation being discussed, - accommodation was provided, as was the cruise and the flights.

Although it was far from ideal accommodation, and there are lessons to be learned here no doubt in that, it would be difficult to go to a small claims court and argue that the contract was not fulfilled. Most you would be able to get back might be the cost of incidentals such as the taxis but there is no guarantee you would succeed in that

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A quote from a recent ACC invoice:_

Cruise itinerary may change without notice as conditions warrant

seems to leave ACC watertight

[uktog]

-------------------------------------------------

A quote from a recent ACC invoice:_

Cruise itinerary may change without notice as conditions warrant

seems to leave ACC watertight

 

Absolutely, and Nuneham is right, for those with a service issue credit card debates are a distraction which often get dragged into these boards. I was trying to kill the debate, maybe not too successfully sorry

[Joecors]

....using italics has completly messed things up.

Two points that I wanted to make in response to UKTOG blog was

1. We use a credit card for the initial (usually) £300 deposit, then pay the balance when due by debit card. I believe this then covers you for the complete cost of the cruise if the wheel comes off the barrow and also reduces the effective cost of using a credit card.

2. On a recent invoice received from ACC, the statement:-

"Cruise itinerary may change without notice as conditions warrant"

legally effectively covers ACC if the hotel or flights change

[zennor]

Thank you for starting this thread as I was about to do so myself. My question for Bill is whether there actually is a separate management team in the UK who is responsible for planning the non-cruise aspects for Azamara guests in the UK such as flights, transfers and hotels or is it all part of RCCL? My impression is that everything is dealt with by RCCL UK as is Customer services and that this why the pre & post-cruise experience does not match the quality of the Azamara cruise itself.

 

I think I read an article by Larry Pimental somewhere regretting that he had not based a management team in the UK and I wondered whether this situation was going to change?

 

I am very keen to book another cruise and for consumer protection reasons I would prefer to book a 'package' that includes flights etc. but as it stands I am very wary of doing so as the current quality of the service is just not acceptable.

[Grandma Gilly]

The position in the UK is complex and whilst there is credit card protection it is not the same as is enjoyed elsewhere

 

Firstly if a passenger books through a travel agent, if they wish to pay by credit card, most agencies charge an additional handling fee of 2-2.5%, therefore for many passengers, that is a cost they chose to avoid, so they pay by debit card, which has no protection

 

just as an aside, I recently paid for an upcoming Silverseas cruise and was able to pay my TA with a credit card (goody-air miles!!!) as I was told the cruise company do not charge extra for credit card payment.

[uktog]

One thing I would just like to add to balance out this thread a little and again, not to deny the fact that there has been a drop off in terms of what happened re the Venice hotels, it is not all bad with Azamara UK.

 

Yes, there are issues with the call handling and many of the staff do not know the product (actually some struggle at times with the Celebrity product as well, not sure what they are like with the RCI product), however there is also great service there, particularly if you have contact with the Loyalty team - Captains Club/Azamara - Lesley never lets you down and I am sure at times she is having to cope with a lack of internal information when she is tracking down responses for me

[excitedofharpenden]

One thing I would just like to add to balance out this thread a little and again, not to deny the fact that there has been a drop off in terms of what happened re the Venice hotels, it is not all bad with Azamara UK.

 

Yes, there are issues with the call handling and many of the staff do not know the product (actually some struggle at times with the Celebrity product as well, not sure what they are like with the RCI product), however there is also great service there, particularly if you have contact with the Loyalty team - Captains Club/Azamara - Lesley never lets you down and I am sure at times she is having to cope with a lack of internal information when she is tracking down responses for me

Ann, I would second what you have said. Sometimes these positive experiences can get lost and in redressing this I too have always had great service from the loyalty team, particularly Lesley who will go above and beyond to help and resolve issues. It makes a huge difference to me and is why I keep going back to book my cruises through Celebrity/Azamara direct.

 

Phil

[nuneham]

OK, I seem to have stirred a hornets' nest but I started this thread admitting that I love Azamara and there there is certainly much to commend. The postings relating to payment methods interest me but I still see them as a distraction. Similarly everyone is free to choose whether they book fly/cruise or cruise only. My point is that AZ offer pre-cruise packages, they encourage us to book fly/cruise and then often fail to deliver to UK passengers. If they're going to put it in the shop window it should be up to standard. And I emphasise again that I don't expect the onboard standard of service while I'm en route, just journeys that don't leave me feeling mauled.

[Joecors]

.. it's how you get me there that's the problem! ( the "we'll love..." bit features copiously on your web sites and brochures).

Why despite being a "luxury" cruise line does ACC persist in using block bookings, certainly for flights out of LHR. As a result you cannot book seats on the flight until you arrive at the airport on the day of departure so ACC guests expecting to sit together end up with the residue of unbooked seats, sitting miles apart at the front and rear of the plane.

So luxury cruising with Azamara starts off akin to hanging onto the roof of a train leaving Dehli for the Taj Mahal. Remember too that the luxury cruise line charges luxury prices for this; much more than 300 rupees too.

I am due to cruise on the Quest in about three weeks time and my health is such that I really need to be seated next to my daughter whom I cruise with. I have contacted my TA and they have spoken to Addlestone but nothing can be done about it. For HOST ANDY's benefit, I am not asking you specifically to help me with my particular problem but ACC should really concentrate on sorting out the problem of "block booking"; a subject which has been raised several times previously. They fell on deaf ears too.

The number of times that I've cruised on the Quest and the Journey shows how much I love cruising on them but if ACC don't sort the problem out soon, I'm going to pack my bags and look elsewhere.

[Balloon Man]

A quote from a recent ACC invoice:_

Cruise itinerary may change without notice as conditions warrant

seems to leave ACC watertight.

 

Not in the UK where we have quite strong consumer protection laws. Terms and conditions must be "reasonable" to be legal. They must not be hidden away, in very small type, or printed in a colour that makes them difficult to read. It's all to do with the man on the Clapham omnibus (ask me about it when I have a large scotch in my hand in the bar on Journey in three weeks time).

 

Where force majeure in the form of bad weather or unrest in a port causes a change of intinerary that would be reasonable. But if a four star cruise line departing from Venice puts you up in a two star hotel 20 miles away from the action a court would likely consider this unreasonable and award some compensation. However if the breach is pointed-out to the cruise line they will probably settle rather than face court, especially because in the UK Small Claims Court you can bring a case personally and without having to pay the opposing side's legal fees even if they win.

 

And I am speaking from experience here with a cruise line that will remain nameless. Alan.

[Balloon Man]

In defence of Azamazing I have to say I had no problem selecting seats on our AA flight out of LHR to San Juan via Miami. My TA obtained the locater code for me from Azamara / RCL and I could use that on-line with AA to choose seats out and back. With help from RCL in Miami I was even able to choose seats on the TAM flight back from Manaus to Miami post cruise. For that good service I thank them. Then they went and spoilt it by overnighting us at the Sheraton at Miami airport when they could have put us on an overnight AA flight to London. Guess you can't win them all. Alan.

[zennor]

This thread is raising all sorts of issues but I do think that the main question is whether there is a difference between the pre/post cruise arrangements for UK customers and those for US customers. Is it only UK customers that are being offered these 'package' deals that include flights, hotels & transfers? What do most US customers do - do they arrange everything themselves & just purchase the cruise from ACC?

 

It's good to hear that some of you have had helpful dealings with Azamara UK. Unfortunately I haven't as we also had misinformation regarding the 50% discount off excursions & also the correct terminal in Venice, which is why I agreed with the nuneham's initial post in this thread.

 

BUT we did not have an issue with the flights from LHR & there was no block booking. As I mentioned above when I first asked for quotes for our cruise one TA could not give me any flight details but the one that we booked with gave me the exact times & these were direct both ways. We had the BA code as soon as we booked (on the ACC invoice) & could check it via checkmytrip.com & checked in online 24 hours in advance.

[Jade13]

I pay for my cruises using a Visa debit card as it saves 2.5% - and hope I will never regret it! Alan.

 

In the US it is against the law for any company to charge the consumer the credit card transaction fee. I think some companies get around it by offering a lower fee to pay in cash/bank transfer but I would never do it. Besides, with the credit cards we get all kinds of points which equal free miles and flights.

 

The only place in Europe we have taken advantage of a discount for paying in a cash is one of our favored hotels in Rome where there is a 20% discount to pay in cash. And that is at the end of our stay, do I do not see much risk.

[Joecors]

...and it's not the first time that it has happened to me.

A check on a previous thread will show that a guest on the same fly/cruise as me, disgusted with the way they were treated at LHR decided to quit cruising with Azamara.

 

I bow to Balloonman's and the man on the Clapham omnibus combined superior knowledge of the law but:-

 

...."They must not be hidden away, written in small print, or printed in a colour that makes them difficult to read "

 

none of those qualifications applied!

[Jade13]

What do most US customers do - do they arrange everything themselves & just purchase the cruise from ACC?

 

quote]

 

Yes. We always book our own hotels, and preferance is to book our own flights direct through the airlines.

 

Now we will likely book our air through Choice Air because Azamara will only discount the cruise if you do (which is their promotion for US passengers on almost all itineraries). However, it is a lot better than the UK mystery flights as we can pick and choose our flights including pre and post cruise time in any city.

[mugwood]

[quote=Joecors;30838279

I am due to cruise on the Quest in about three weeks time and my health is such that I really need to be seated next to my daughter whom I cruise with. I have contacted my TA and they have spoken to Addlestone but nothing can be done about it.

 

Hi, If you check your reservation on Azamara's website, you will be able to locate your airline booking reference via the online version of your ticket. If you enter that number into the British Airways 'manage my booking' page, you can either reserve your seat any time (£10 per flight) or wait until 24 hours before flight time (free). Maybe I am presumptuous in anticipating you have BA flights.

[MrMojoRisin]

Hi, If you check your reservation on Azamara's website, you will be able to locate your airline booking reference via the online version of your ticket. If you enter that number into the British Airways 'manage my booking' page, you can either reserve your seat any time (£10 per flight) or wait until 24 hours before flight time (free). Maybe I am presumptuous in anticipating you have BA flights.

 

 

This may be true with BA, although as the flights are a block booking you may not be able to do this. One can only try it and see.

 

What I do know is that we could not do this with our recent Alitalia flights - either in advance or with on-line check-in. We were simply blocked out.

[Grandma Gilly]

...... they went and spoilt it by overnighting us at the Sheraton at Miami airport when they could have put us on an overnight AA flight to London. Guess you can't win them all. Alan.

 

Alan,

Perhaps they were doing this in your own interest so you could do some shopping and add to the US economy!!!!!

Gilly

[pmymmw]

Hi, If you check your reservation on Azamara's website, you will be able to locate your airline booking reference via the online version of your ticket. If you enter that number into the British Airways 'manage my booking' page, you can either reserve your seat any time (£10 per flight) or wait until 24 hours before flight time (free). Maybe I am presumptuous in anticipating you have BA flights.

I can confirm that this is not possible for most flights out of the UK that are arranged by Azamara. The attached image shows what I get when I try to manage the booking for the flight for our November Quest cruise:

I find this extremely annoying as I am lucky enough to be a Silver member with BA (due to business travel) so should be able to select my seat at no extra at time of booking.

 

I truely believe that Azamara out of the UK is a 5* cruise line offering a 2* land and air service.

[Joecors]

Hi, If you check your reservation on Azamara's website, you will be able to locate your airline booking reference via the online version of your ticket. If you enter that number into the British Airways 'manage my booking' page, you can either reserve your seat any time (£10 per flight) or wait until 24 hours before flight time (free). Maybe I am presumptuous in anticipating you have BA flights.

 

Did this for an ACC fly/cruise in Europe flying BA that we did six weeks ago and it worked.

 

Did this last year for an ACC fly/cruise in Europe flying BA last year and we had to print our boarding pass at LHR on the morning of the flight. I sat at the front of the plane and my daughter was in the last row.

 

Did this for an ACC fly/cruise in Europe flying BA in 3 weeks time. Have tried to print boarding passes daily. Response:- Computer says "NO".

Phoned TA and asked them to appeal to ACC. They did with response:_ Azamara also says "NO".

 

We have travelled eight cruises with ACC flying each time with BA so we are familiar with the system. We enjoy the security of asking ACC to book the flights, insuring against the vagaries of the weather, volcanoes and strikes possibly leading to our missing the start of the cruise.

What is the logic in ACC thinking???????????? I'm hoping that Bill Leister can explain

or maybe you know the answer!!