not able to connect cruises/us cruise laws

[oaktreerb]

Tried to book the Millennium SD to Vancouver cruise on May 27 and also the cruise from Vancouver to Anchorage (Seward) from June 1. These would be back to back cruises and I was told by the cruise consultant that this was illegal and would result in a fine. I know that US ships have to go to a foreign port on each cruise and each of these cruises does. What makes this particular connection illegal? I just want to sail from San Diego to Seward without having to fly. The cruise consultant tried to explain it but it didn't make sense to me.

[Gonzo70]

It violates the PVSA (Passenger Vessels Services Act) because the ship would be transporting you from one U.S. city (San Diego, CA) to another U.S. city (Seward, AK). In order to start a cruise in one U.S. city and end a cruise in a different U.S. city the ship must call upon a distant foreign port. The cruises you are referencing stop at Canada which is not a distant foreign port. When a cruise starts and ends in the same U.S. city (i.e. round trip out of Seattle, WA for example) then the law states that the ship only needs to visit any foreign port (so Canada would be O.K.) but the stricter requirement of a distant foreign port occurs when you are starting and ending your cruise in different U.S. cities.

This is similar to the law that prevents foreign airlines from transporting you from one U.S. city to another; the law was designed to prevent U.S. flagged ships from foreign competition.

[Lsimon]

Wow. I've heard of that law before but this is the first time I've ever heard of it being applied to two consecutive b2b cruises - although I guess that this doesn't set up that way very often.

 

You'd think it wouldn't apply to two different cruises as long as the person got off the ship and back on - but that is just common sense which has nothing to do with these laws in any event.

[Gonzo70]

Wow. I've heard of that law before but this is the first time I've ever heard of it being applied to two consecutive b2b cruises - although I guess that this doesn't set up that way very often.

 

You'd think it wouldn't apply to two different cruises as long as the person got off the ship and back on - but that is just common sense which has nothing to do with these laws in any event.

 

It kind of has to be that way if you think about it. Otherwise the cruise lines could easily circumvent the PVSA and easily do one way Hawaii cruises. For example they could sail from San Diego, CA to Hawaii with a stop at Ensenada, Mexico and call it a back-to-back cruise (i.e. call sailing from San Diego to Ensenda one cruise and then Endenada to Hawaii a second cruise).

[ghstudio]

The fact is that the OP is booking two different cruises with different cruise numbers and the only commonality is that they happen to be boarding the same ship. The OP will be spending some time in Vancouver unaffiliated with any cruise line or ship. Technically, I don't think there is any violation of the Jones Act or the PVSA. I don't believe there is any part of either act that says how long you must be in one port before boarding another vessel....both laws talk about a single voyage.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

.

[Gonzo70]

The fact is that the OP is booking two different cruises with different cruise numbers and the only commonality is that they happen to be boarding the same ship. The OP will be spending some time in Vancouver unaffiliated with any cruise line or ship. Technically, I don't think there is any violation of the Jones Act or the PVSA. I don't believe there is any part of either act that says how long you must be in one port before boarding another vessel....both laws talk about a single voyage.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

.

 

You are wrong. See my post above yours.

 

The Jones Act has zero to do with cruising, but what the OP is talking about is a definite violation of the PVSA and Celebrity (or any cruise line other than with a sailing on a U.S. flagged ship) would not knowingly permit somebody to book such an itinerary as back-to-back.

[Denny01]

Not being a lawyer, I'll stick with Gonzo's explanation....he's been right on this in other similar discussions.

 

Den

[ghstudio]

You are wrong. See my post above yours.

 

The Jones Act has zero to do with cruising, but what the OP is talking about is a definite violation of the PVSA and Celebrity (or any cruise line other than with a sailing on a U.S. flagged ship) would not knowingly permit somebody to book such an itinerary as back-to-back.

 

How much time would have to pass before someone could book a "return cruise" to a different port in the US (e.g. Seward)? A week, a month, a year, or once you go to vancouver on Celebrity, can you never take a cruise to Alaska on Celebrity without breaking those laws? What does the LAW say?

[fleckle]

Tried to book the Millennium SD to Vancouver cruise on May 27 and also the cruise from Vancouver to Anchorage (Seward) from June 1. These would be back to back cruises and I was told by the cruise consultant that this was illegal and would result in a fine. I know that US ships have to go to a foreign port on each cruise and each of these cruises does. What makes this particular connection illegal?

What makes it illegal is that a foreign-flagged ship would be transporting you between 2 different US ports.

I just want to sail from San Diego to Seward without having to fly. The cruise consultant tried to explain it but it didn't make sense to me.

Be very grateful that you were given the correct information up front by a cruise consultant who is knowledgeable.

 

We first learned about the restrictions of the PVSA years ago under duress when we were booked to take similar back-to-back cruises on Princess. We had our boarding passes and were all set to go.

 

The Princess people were negligent in issuing the boarding passes in the first place and failed to inform us that it was illegal until only a few days before the cruise, after all our travel arrangements had been made and we were set to go! ( That was how we came to learn more about the PVSA than we would ever wish to know.)

 

Anyway, if you really want this particular itinerary you can disembark at Vancouver and take a different ship up to Seward. Or for that matter, continue on any other ship that leaves from either Vancouver or Seattle.

 

Or, even better, remain on the Millennium, ride it up to Seward and then back down to Vancouver again. That would really give you a wonderful extended cruise, if you can spare the time.

As long as your final disembarkation port is Vancouver (i.e., not a US port) it will be legal.

[ghstudio]

so are you saying that the OP could not take the millenium from vancouver to Alaska even if they stayed in Vancouver for 2 weeks and took the next vancouver to seward cruise? Could they take a different celebrity ship from vancouver to seward or would they not be able to take any celebrity ship to anywhere but San Diego? could they take another non us flagged ship the same day they arrive in vancouver on a cruise to seward.

 

I'm really trying to understand the law...because it's often just glossed over as "oh you can't do that" but that's not true in many cases.

 

Hopefully Princess figured out how to compensate you for any lost costs on your earlier cruise....or is the passenger supposed to know about these laws?? I can easily see someone booking one cruise with one TA and another with a second TA on b2b's (actually we did that very thing for cruises next year).....no way the two TA's would know. (the two cruises aren't in the US..but this is an academic example).

 

BTW...I believe the fine is $300....unless it went up from the last time I read about these laws.

[Gonzo70]

BTW...I believe the fine is $300....unless it went up from the last time I read about these laws.

 

While the fine is $300, it is not something you can choose to violate and pay the fine - that is generally only permitted in emergency situations. A cruise ship will not knowingly allow one to book a cruise itinerary that violates the PVSA even if the passenger was willing to pay triple the fine amount. Cruise ships are not supposed to allow this law to be broken (again outside of emergency situations; i.e. someone becoming gravely ill and needing to end a cruise in a different U.S. city in order to receive medical attention).

[Gonzo70]

so are you saying that the OP could not take the millenium from vancouver to Alaska even if they stayed in Vancouver for 2 weeks and took the next vancouver to seward cruise? Could they take a different celebrity ship from vancouver to seward or would they not be able to take any celebrity ship to anywhere but San Diego? could they take another non us flagged ship the same day they arrive in vancouver on a cruise to seward.

 

 

1) My understanding is they could not take the same ship from Vancouver to Alaska even if they waited two weeks. I am not aware of any verbiage in the PVSA that indicates that after a certain amount of time passes, a ship may transport you from one U.S. port to another without visiting a distant foreign port. That said if you wait long enough it is doubtful anybody would notice.

 

2) Yes, you may take another ship (a Celebrity ship or any other ship) from Vancouver to Seward as the PVSA would not be violated. You also could take the bus, Amtrak, a ferry or rental car to Seattle, WA from Vancouver and do an Alaskan cruise from Seattle if there is no ship sailing out of Vancouver that is appealing or feasible.

[fleckle]

How much time would have to pass before someone could book a "return cruise" to a different port in the US (e.g. Seward)? A week, a month, a year, or once you go to vancouver on Celebrity, can you never take a cruise to Alaska on Celebrity without breaking those laws? What does the LAW say?

There is no time restriction at all if your cruise to a different US port is on a different ship.

 

You can disembark one ship in Vancouver, walk across the pier and immediately board another ship.

(In fact, we did that several years ago cruising southbound when we rode one ship from Alaska down to Vancouver and then boarded another ship for a coastal cruise down to LA.)

 

The time restriction applies only if you are continuing on the same ship. We were told that it is 24 hours, so theoretically if our Princess ship had remained in Vancouver for 24 hours, we would have been allowed to stay on it up to Alaska. But, sadly for us, it left the same day.

[fleckle]

so are you saying that the OP could not take the millenium from vancouver to Alaska even if they stayed in Vancouver for 2 weeks and took the next vancouver to seward cruise? Could they take a different celebrity ship from vancouver to seward or would they not be able to take any celebrity ship to anywhere but San Diego? could they take another non us flagged ship the same day they arrive in vancouver on a cruise to seward.

 

I'm really trying to understand the law...because it's often just glossed over as "oh you can't do that" but that's not true in many cases.

They could have taken any other ship leaving Vancouver for Alaska the same day or they could have taken the Millennium on a different day.

 

But since the Millennium would not be back there again for 2 weeks, in reality it would mean spending 2 weeks in Vancouver if they wanted to continue northbound on the Millennium. Something that I would not mind doing at all actually, as Vancouver is one of my favorite cities.

Hopefully Princess figured out how to compensate you for any lost costs on your earlier cruise....or is the passenger supposed to know about these laws??

There is no way the passenger would be expected to know about these laws. Most of the cruise line employees don't even know about them. Certainly the one who booked our Princess cruises did not.

 

Princess did not want to lose the revenue so they kept insisting that we had to transfer to a different cruise on a different date, which we refused to do. We just filed a complaint with our credit card company and they got us a full refund from Princess.

 

As it turned out, we are Elite Captain's Club members with Celebrity due to Princess! As soon as the credit card company got us our money back, we booked our first Celebrity cruise to replace the Princess cruise and that first Celebrity cruise got us hooked on Celebrity.

[ghstudio]

Interesting discussion. I just re-read the guidance on the law to mariners and the part that catches the OP is "intent" The OP intends to travel from a US city to another US city on a non coastwise qualified vessel.

 

For more detailed information: http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/trade/legal/informed_compliance_pubs/pvsa_icp.ctt/pvsa_icp.pdf

 

So the only practical solution is to figure out how to do this B2B on 2 different vessels.

[Gonzo70]

 

So the only practical solution is to figure out how to do this B2B on 2 different vessels.

 

Correct. Fortunately it is easy to get from Vancouver to Seattle, so that opens up lots of options if someone wants to extend their vacation by adding an Alaska cruise, but certainly a lot more hassle than if one could just stay on the same ship for both cruises.

[Cruise Junky]

If the OP has the time and money, they could also stay onboard for the return trip to Vancouver. Then the PVSA doesn't apply.

[oaktreerb]

Correct. Fortunately it is easy to get from Vancouver to Seattle, so that opens up lots of options if someone wants to extend their vacation by adding an Alaska cruise, but certainly a lot more hassle than if one could just stay on the same ship for both cruises.

 

Thanks for explaining this issue. I spent a lot of time planning this trip and was pretty upset when I was told that it was not possible.

 

It looks like the Seattle departures are roundtrip so that would not get me to Seward. We could stay overnite in Vancouver and maybe take another ship a couple of days later.

 

You say it's easy to get from Vancouver to Seattle. If we were to get off the ship in the a.m. and plan to take a cruise out of Seattle that same day what would be the easiest and quickest method of going from the port in Vancouver to the port in Seattle?

[ghstudio]

Thanks for explaining this issue. I spent a lot of time planning this trip and was pretty upset when I was told that it was not possible.

 

It looks like the Seattle departures are roundtrip so that would not get me to Seward. We could stay overnite in Vancouver and maybe take another ship a couple of days later.

 

You say it's easy to get from Vancouver to Seattle. If we were to get off the ship in the a.m. and plan to take a cruise out of Seattle that same day what would be the easiest and quickest method of going from the port in Vancouver to the port in Seattle?

 

either private driver or rent a car.

 

Yes, the seattle sailings would have to return to seattle or they would, once again, violate that law...and you can't get off in Seward because that would be a violation of the law.

[TeaBag]

Thanks for explaining this issue. I spent a lot of time planning this trip and was pretty upset when I was told that it was not possible.

 

It looks like the Seattle departures are roundtrip so that would not get me to Seward. We could stay overnite in Vancouver and maybe take another ship a couple of days later.

 

You say it's easy to get from Vancouver to Seattle. If we were to get off the ship in the a.m. and plan to take a cruise out of Seattle that same day what would be the easiest and quickest method of going from the port in Vancouver to the port in Seattle?

Sorry about your difficulty with the rules. bummer. You can take a train or bus from Vancouver to Seattle if you are not comfortable renting a car one way. Here is a link to the schedule. Many people say the train route is very scenic. They have a senior rate too, if you're in that category.

http://www.amtrakcascades.com/schedule.htm

[MMDown Under]

I'm not sure why, but this reminds me of the childhood story of the Emperor With No Clothes.

[fleckle]

Thanks for explaining this issue. I spent a lot of time planning this trip and was pretty upset when I was told that it was not possible.

 

It looks like the Seattle departures are roundtrip so that would not get me to Seward. We could stay overnite in Vancouver and maybe take another ship a couple of days later.

I only suggested remaining on the Millennium for the return from Seward to Vancouver as an option that would eliminate the need for you to change ships.

 

But doing that would also eliminate the opportunity to go up to Denali or do any other Alaska land touring after the cruise.

 

If you want a northbound cruise from Vancouver to Seward so that you can do Alaska land touring afterward, then also consider northbound cruises from Vancouver to Whittier. That would give you a few more options in the following days if willing to stay overnight in Vancouver. Whittier is even closer to Anchorage than Seward.

 

If Alaska land touring is not a priority and you are willing to take a round-trip cruise from either Vancouver or Seattle, then you have even more options. For example, both the Infinity and Rhapsody of the Seas leave out of Seattle on June 1.

 

If you don't want to drive from Vancouver to Seattle, you could ride the Quick Shuttle from the Vancouver pier to downtown Seattle and then take a taxi to the Seattle pier.

 

http://www.quickcoach.com/

[billie5]

Wow. I've heard of that law before but this is the first time I've ever heard of it being applied to two consecutive b2b cruises - although I guess that this doesn't set up that way very often.

Simon, I am really surprised to read this, since you correspond on CC so often. This b2b problem has come up many many times on all the boards, and, yes, Gonzo's explanation is 100% correct.

 

The usual proffered solution is to use a different ship (same or different cruise line makes no difference). The hypothetical about the cruise ship sitting for several days in its disembarkation port and then continuing on I have never read before, probably because it never normally occurs. I suppose there must be a time limit set by regulation just in case it should occur, but I can not imagine it actually has.

 

Bill

[oaktreerb]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. Now I'll have to start my planning all over again. Our plans were to spend some time at Alyeska and maybe drive up to Talkeetna on the backend of our trip before flying home from Anchorage. I have not cruised on Celebrity and was really looking forward to that part of the vacation also!

[jcrandle]

You might also write your US congressman and senator and ask them to tell you exactly what US flagged cruise ships are being protected by this law. We would all love to hear how the US cruise industry is doing.