Celebrity Reflection Design: "Improvements" to Break the Camel's Back?

[cruisetrail]

My dentist has the required training and experience to render a judgment.

Mt TA is very experienced and has been on all of the S Class ships so would have direct knowledge.

Sure you can compare the Normandie with the QM. I'll base my judgment on the accuracy of your statements on your qualifications as an "expert".

 

What is your purpose for bring up this topic?

Are you angry at Celebrity and want to get even?

Are you involved with another line?

Are you just seeking attention and feel that posting negative comments furthers your goal?

Are you involved in Consumer protection?

 

One way we judge the credibilty of an opinion is by understanding the motive.

 

Yes, I am an expert.

I teach travel agents when I book cruises. All I want from them is a good price.

I am involved in all lines.

My motive - interest in cruising industry.

My comments are not negative.

They are analytical.

 

The motive of the ads that are desperately quoted here by some posters - is to justify by all means the commercialization of S-Class project, free-to-fee conversion.

They will tell you that 80cm make wonder!

 

Marketing people have to say something.

 

They cannot just say: hey folks, we decided to get more money from our S-Class ship. So there will be suites where a public lounge used to be, there will paid cabanas where free grass loan used to be, there will be 160 or so more passengers, there will be more loungers squeezed into...

 

Of course, from the ad - a theatre will be larger, a restaurant will boost into a palace.

80 cm make wonders!

They have to inflate a fly.

This is their job.

 

Some people here have no clue what 80cm means and where this wonder is going to happen. The ship has tons of shops, kitchens, pantries.

 

Will they build a new lounge with those extra 4000 tons?

Nope.

They will add a huge deck with cabins and crop the existing Sky Lounge (the former "Pride of Celebrity") and sell it to suites.

 

Some one here who comes up with crazy numbers of square feet simply don't realize that 1000 square feet strip is not a 1000 square feet room!

The first in not perceivable, it's nothing (like a glass of milk in a tub vs a glass of milk in a glass!) - the second is a real asset.

 

The poll is an interesting tool to analize how easy is it to make people listen to sweet syrup of ads and turn off their eyes and critical thinking.

[Ma Bell]

Yes, I am an expert.

I teach travel agents when I book cruises. All I want from them is a good price.

I am involved in all lines.

My motive - interest in cruising industry.

My comments are not negative.

They are analytical.

 

The motive of the ads that are desperately quoted here by some posters - is to justify by all means the commercialization of S-Class project, free-to-fee conversion.

They will tell you that 80cm make wonder!

 

Marketing people have to say something.

 

They cannot just say: hey folks, we decided to get more money from our S-Class ship. So there will be suites where a public lounge used to be, there will paid cabanas where free grass loan used to be, there will be 160 or so more passengers, there will be more loungers squeezed into...

 

Of course, from the ad - a theatre will be larger, a restaurant will boost into a palace.

80 cm make wonders!

They have to inflate a fly.

This is their job.

 

Some people here have no clue what 80cm means and where this wonder is going to happen. The ship has tons of shops, kitchens, pantries.

 

Will they build a new lounge with those extra 4000 tons?

Nope.

They will add a huge deck with cabins and crop the existing Sky Lounge (the former "Pride of Celebrity") and sell it to suites.

 

Some one here who comes up with crazy numbers of square feet simply don't realize that 1000 square feet strip is not a 1000 square feet room!

The first in not perceivable, it's nothing (like a glass of milk in a tub vs a glass of milk in a glass!) - the second is a real asset.

 

The poll is an interesting tool to analyze how easy is it to make people listen to sweet syrup of ads and turn off their eyes and critical thinking.

 

I think most of us who have sailed for many years on Celebrity ships will wait to see the ship before condemning it. That is critical thinking. When we actually sail on the ship, there may be things we don't care for or we may think the new design is much better. That remains to be seen.

 

You also seem to have your numbers wrong again. 3 ft. X 1000 is 3000, not 1000. If you were a person with some architectural experience you would realize that a three foot difference in the width of a space is significant. We're not talking about a room, but a 1000 ft. long ship. That space is also on every deck of the ship. There is also another whole deck added. The number of square feet added would be evident in public areas since the cabin sizes remain the same.

[WELSH WIZARDS]

......Yes, I am an expert. ..........

 

=====================================

 

What expert would conduct a poll open to everyone to vote on, about something very few people [ other than you , of course :rolleyes: ] have experience off, or expertise on yet . ?

[Denny01]

....My comments are not negative.

They are analytical.

 

So you say you are not negative but 'analytical' and make posts such as this:

 

Another surprise?

It's hard to believe.

This isn't analytical but very subjective and emotional.

 

And then my favorite:

 

Yes, I am an expert.

I teach travel agents when I book cruises....

You do realize what this sounds like? I can only educate TAs on what I wish for myself, and would not be so presumptive as to 'train' them.

 

Good to hear from those that actually have started to experience what is being discussed. And for the OP, anyone can post their opinion on anything they wish, but most of us have little interest in reading opinions based on conjecture and supposition, and even worse, a photo.

 

Before lecturing others and 'training' them, it's always good to have some direct experience.

 

Den

[Gitte]

You have direct experience and I would enjoy hearing more from you about your impressions. In your opinion is the design of Reflection better, worse, or about the same as the other S Class ships?

 

Two nights on the ship is too short and this was a special cruise.

I can you tell more after our Med cruise of 21 October.

Gitte

[cruisetrail]

So you say you are not negative but 'analytical'

 

Denny01, hard to believe means hard to believe.

More reports needed.

[Christine Frances]

Cruisetrail

I see you are sailing on the Royal Princess which you pretty well slammed as "being "badly Solsticized" as well as the Mega ship the Breakaway!

 

Norwegian Breakaway - 4038 pax 144,000 tons pax space ratio 35.66

Royal Princess 3600 pax 141,000 tons pax space ratio 39.16

Reflection 3030 pax 126,000 tons pax space ratio 41.58

 

I sure know which ship I want to sail on:D

[cruisetrail]

You also seem to have your numbers wrong again. 3 ft. X 1000 is 3000, not 1000.

 

No. It's an example.

It can be 3000, 7000. Does not matter.

 

 

That space is also on every deck of the ship.

No.

You don't know how "extra 80cm" are spread throughout the ship.

You also don't know how extra 80 cm (if any) are implemented.

 

There is also another whole deck added.

Yes. Almost.

And this is what we are talking about.

 

The number of square feet added would be evident in public areas since the cabin sizes remain the same

No.

80 cm is nothing to be evident anywhere in public areas (unless you are talking about theatre doors:):))

It's about 2% of the ship width.

[chesapeake_traveler]

Let's all respect the First Amendment Right. Hopefully, you are all blessed with it. Many countries in this world don't allow people to speak freely.

 

What is the big deal anyway? This is a blog about cruising, a travel method we use for our pleasure. Why does one feel the need to attack another for practicing their right to free speech? It's unfortunate.

 

If every comment that was posted on this site was positive, what would be the point of having a login account? Wouldn't a perfect site be a total bore? The negative is just as important as the positive, and that is why I joined this site. Not every one will share the same opinion, but the benefit is the same. That's the joy of it all.

 

I'm not sure if every one is aware that some posters are employed by the cruise lines to help boost public relations. Ignore the personal attacks and keeping blogging. This site is for our benefit and not the cruise lines, thus the name 'Cruise Critic'.

[Ma Bell]

The width was added across the beam which is the widest part of the ship. In order to keep the proportions the same it would have to continue on all decks. The whole point of widening the ship was to provide the same proportion for stability and balance and to provide additional public space for the increase in passengers. I personally didn't have any problem following the explanation...sorry you did.

 

Apparently you believe there is a grand conspiracy to "fool" the public.:eek: This is my last comment on the subject.

[Denny01]

We are now getting posts by people who have actually been on the ship and can give us good feedback based on actual experience. Looking forward to their comments, pointing out the good, the bad and the beautiful. I cant really think there is anything really ugly on any cruise ship....but you never know.

 

I suggest we all read on what those posters have to share.

 

Den

[boogs]

Cruisetrail, I have a question for you. Are you planning to actually cruise on Reflection? Or are you going to continue your critique without stepping foot on this ship?

 

He doesn't have to step foot on the ship. After all, as he admits on a recent post, "Yes, I am an expert. I teach travel agents when I book cruises."

 

So, here is this self appointed "expert" who tells travel professionals how to do their jobs when he books a cruise with them. I wonder how many friends he makes with that approach?

[cruisetrail]

boogs, please stop personal insults!

This is forbidden by CC rules.

[SantaFeFan]

... please stop personal insults!

This is forbidden by CC rules.

 

So sorry you feel you are being picked on. Here is a suggestion - stop posting nonsense posts and you won't get challenged when you do.

 

Seems like you are happy to insult others, but cry "foul" when it's you who is being called out. Here are some examples of you being rude and insulting:

 

"OMG. You are absolutely, totally confused about the "math" and where and how this ship was measured "wider" and what that means in practice. This is your fantasy."

 

"Who told you this "fact"? Examplary nonsense."

 

"You obviously don't know what you are talking about."

 

"Some one here who comes up with crazy numbers of square feet simply don't realize that 1000 square feet strip is not a 1000 square feet room!"

 

I am reminded of that old saying, "Practice what you preach."

 

BTW: I spent a few minutes looking over some of your many "expert" postings. A common thread is you telling people to stop insulting you in many of them. It appears you have a habit of annoying people on these boards with your style of proselytizing.

[cruisetrail]

I totally agree with you on this point. We took our first cruise aboard an S-class ship in April, the Eclipse, and one of the most wonderful surprises for me, as a cruiser and an amateur photographer, was to have NO glass wall in the bow. Yes, like Happy Cruiser's companion, I have taken decent shots out a car window, but it is not the same as not having glass between you and the subject. It is just totally different.

 

Plus, I just love being able to see the open ocean, and, yes, even feel the wind, without a glass wall in place. One of the reasons I love to cruise is to experience the water, and the more that cruise lines limit the openness of that experience (whether it is with glass walls in the bow, cabanas on the lawn, or claustrophobic "promenade" decks), I think it diminishes the cruising experience, for me at least.

 

I agree that it's hard to comment on the Reflection without sailing on her, but I've been on enough ships to know that I would prefer not to have a glass wall in the bow, and I *totally* loved that the Eclipse did not have one.

 

The front observation deck was my favorite place on the Eclipse.

Space. Panoramic views.

It was so refreshing after crowds on the pool deck...

 

Eclipse

 

 

 

 

Reflection

Huge fence. Spoiled panorama.

Feeling of being restrained.

Source.

[cruiseerf]

I have friends who work for the Cruise Industry and it is well known that the Reflection is going to be Celebrities "money maker" with more for fee options then other ships AND more cabins that CAN fit including triples 243 extra people.

 

NONE of the dining venues have been made larger to accommodate this and I know this for a fact...if the ship is slightly wider....it is negligible...the real increase came from adding additional height...There is one more deck....

 

Having sailed the S class extensively, my biggest complaints on all of them is The wait for the main elevators in the atrium can be too long and the buffet is a MAD HOUSE most days and anytime dining can often be hurry up and wait.... Adding 243 more people to these cue's is only going to make it worse.

 

I will watch these boards carefully to see what people say!

 

Happy Sails to all!

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

I am sure it will work out ...

[boogs]

I have friends who work for the Cruise Industry and it is well known that the Reflection is going to be Celebrities "money maker" with more for fee options then other ships AND more cabins that CAN fit including triples 243 extra people.

 

NONE of the dining venues have been made larger to accommodate this and I know this for a fact...if the ship is slightly wider....it is negligible...the real increase came from adding additional height...There is one more deck....

 

Having sailed the S class extensively, my biggest complaints on all of them is The wait for the main elevators in the atrium can be too long and the buffet is a MAD HOUSE most days and anytime dining can often be hurry up and wait.... Adding 243 more people to these cue's is only going to make it worse.

 

I will watch these boards carefully to see what people say!

 

Happy Sails to all!

 

And yet another person with inaccurate data chiming in proving to everyone with some knowledge of the ship that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Let me set you straight on your incorrect comments:

You said: "NONE of the dining venues have been made larger to accommodate this and I know this for a fact..."

 

The actual fact is: 118 extra seats in Oceanview Café; 24 additional seats each in Blu and in Tuscan Grille;, 4 more seats in Qsine; and 40 additional seats in the main dining room. This is a real FACT. That's spelled F-A-C-T. Look it up. It is information that is easily and readily available to anyone who wants the true FACTS.

 

You said: "if the ship is slightly wider....it is negligible...the real increase came from adding additional height...There is one more deck.... "

 

The actual fact: the ship is one meter wider along it's total length, and this width is on every deck. This width was necessary to stabilize and balance the ship with the additional weight on the upper levels. There is no true "additional" deck. They took the center 1/3rd of deck 12, the pool deck, and installed 72 cabins where the pool deck originally was located. The center 1/3rd of the pool deck was raised to deck 14 to retain the same pool area, and the upper deck area with the Mast Bar and Mast Grille that overlooks the pool was also raised, to deck 15, with an additional meter of width for increased space on all three of these decks. This is a real FACT. That's spelled F-A-C-T. Look it up. It is information that is easily and readily available to anyone who wants the true FACTS.

 

You said: "Adding 243 more people to these cue's is only going to make it worse."

 

The actual fact is that virtually all the rooms added are double occupancy staterooms, without an extra bed. These are mostly AquaClass staterooms, which sleep only two people. The total additional capacity as reported by Celebrity is 196 more passengers - from 2850 to 3046. This is a real FACT. That's spelled F-A-C-T. Look it up. It is information that is easily and readily available to anyone who wants the true FACTS.

 

All of these real facts have been discussed here already. Apparently you chose to ignore them and instead decided to post your false information.

 

I really wish people would stop posting inaccurate, misleading, and confused information on these boards. It is a disservice to the readers.

[Despegue]

For the laymen here, including "expert" Cruisetrail:

 

Listen to those who DO have some knowledge about the issue and learn.

The fact is that the ship IS wider overall, this means hull as well as superstructure, and IS raised by one partial deck on the Superstructure level, increasing the Volume to 126000 m. Tons.

There ARE more seats in all dining areas, there ARE more loungers supplied.

Yes, the Observation lounge has been made smaller, and I am not happy about this, however, it IS underused on her sisters. There IS an extra bar by the way on entertainment court, just before entering the showlounge.

 

Can we now put this mudthrowing to rest please?

[Lsimon]

...Can we now put this mudthrowing to rest please?

 

This will be a difficult one to put to rest for two reasons. First, there are those that are emotionally worried and fretting over what they have yet to experience. No amount of logical thought is going to alleviate the emotional responses they've already convinced themselves of. This will probably continue until they either let it go or actually cruise on the ship and discover that the changes don't ruin their day.

 

Second, there are some features some people will think are great and others will dislike. Take the issue of the wind shield at the front of the ship which is clearly illustrated in the photos in post 115 a few posts before this one. I'll admit that from a viewing and photography standpoint having the clear view is very nice. I'd definitely prefer the direct view when slowly pulling into port - I could just imagine how nice it would be arriving at Venice!! OTOH, I've been in this area on sister ships when cruising at normal speed and it is so windy it is difficult to stay in the area more than a few minutes. As a result the area is usually nearly empty and the chair space goes unused. With the wind shield the area will be a popular spot for lounging during sea days and will become much more populated and usable for more than a few minutes at a time.

 

As with so many things in life there are pros and cons to most of the differences. The key is to take this all in stride and either cruise the ship and let yourself enjoy a wonderful cruise without nitpicking or take a pass and either don't cruise at all or cruise a different ship. It's not exactly a life or death situation here.

[Lsimon]

I have friends who work for the Cruise Industry and it is well known that the Reflection is going to be Celebrities "money maker" with more for fee options then other ships....

 

Exactly what the "more fee options" that Reflection will have compared to, say, the Silhouette? I don't think I've read of any.

[Croooser]

It appears that the OP stated this thread to lobby others to agree with his/her opinions which are decidedly critical of the design changes to Reflection. IMO most folks, that have responded, are not swayed by the arguments posted by the OP to drive that agenda.

 

As for us, when we sailed on the Grand and Golden Princess ships we really liked them. But both of our cruises on the Emerald Princess had issues with overcrowding and we won't ever sail on an expanded Grand class ship again. So do we have some concerns about the changes on Reflection? Yes, indeed we do. But we will reserve judgement until we sail next April. Maybe the expansion will result in overcrowding and maybe it won't. We'll see.

[Denny01]

Excellent post Crooser (Mike/Janet). We'll find out from actual experience which for us is now 24 days away.

 

And Boogs, another excellent response, but you missed another misstatement on that post which was 'there is one more deck...'. Nope. 15-numbered decks just as the other S-Class.

 

Everybody enjoy your next cruise whether it is on the Reflection, some other Celebrity ship or with another Cruise Line you may or may not like more. I dont really remember any 'numbers' really making any impact on my enjoyment of a ship.

 

Den

[cruisetrail]

I have friends who work for the Cruise Industry and it is well known that the Reflection is going to be Celebrities "money maker" with more for fee options then other ships AND more cabins that CAN fit including triples 243 extra people.

 

NONE of the dining venues have been made larger to accommodate this and I know this for a fact...if the ship is slightly wider....it is negligible...the real increase came from adding additional height...There is one more deck....

 

Having sailed the S class extensively, my biggest complaints on all of them is The wait for the main elevators in the atrium can be too long and the buffet is a MAD HOUSE most days and anytime dining can often be hurry up and wait.... Adding 243 more people to these cue's is only going to make it worse.

 

I will watch these boards carefully to see what people say!

 

Happy Sails to all!

 

The increased number of passengers on the Reflection is a drawback in comparison with the Solstice.

It does not matter what Celebrity claims about "extra" tables, loungers.

More passengers is never good. Period.

It's bad.

It's a clear disadvantage for everyone who understands what a cruise ship.

 

You are absolutely right about 80cm "extra width" that is negligible.

 

Pool decks on the Solstice class are too small by design for the ship of this size. At sea days these areas are overcrowded.

 

There were no space for an apple to drop - this is what I saw on the Eclipse.

Addidng more loungers will make things even worse.

Same thing about "more tables in the restaurant".

Why on earth we need that?

 

It's like putting more beds in hallways in a hospital when the rooms are full.

 

Upper decks on the Solstice class do not need more passengers. They need less.

Additional passengers will add more load on every aspect of the life on board.

Adding passengers is never a positive change.

It's negative.

We don't want more passengers.

We want more space.

 

That's why I vote for the Eclipse (one of the reasons).

[boogs]

As a result the area is usually nearly empty and the chair space goes unused. With the wind shield the area will be a popular spot for lounging during sea days and will become much more populated and usable for more than a few minutes at a time.

 

And the more people who use these aft areas to sunbathe, the less competition there is for loungers elsewhere on the ship. It may make the rest of the ship feel less crowded. A plus-plus in my book.