HAL Backing Off from Caribbean Cruises?

[Boytjie]

On the other-hand, MSC is moving the Divinia from Europe to sail year-round from Miami starting November 2013.

[mariner]

Good luck MSC

[sail7seas]

I thought MSC sailed from Port Everglades?

[SwissMyst]

I believe the American middle class is quickly dying. No more disposable income and the recession killed the credit to cruise class, just my opinion.

 

it wasn't the recession. Too many other countries around the world (and out of most of our horizons) have been eating the US for lunch now for the past several years.

 

This was obvious after our Rotterdam cruise into the heart of the new global center of gravity - the Asian Century. It is real. BRIC is beating us at our own game while we sink further and further into debt pretending we can party like it was post WWII.

 

Sobering but shifting consumer demand to SEA is but one obvious move. AUS is doing very well right now dealing the Chinese. Very much a changed game out there. Beyond recognizing this, not sure what else to say. But glad we got out and about when we did. The markets are moving away from us at a rapid pace.

 

The only saving grace were the complaints about the corruption of all this new money in every country we visited in this part of the world. Is it enough to implode all the progress, or do they have a generation or so before it all falls apart for them, just like it did with the Russians and unfortunately for the US too, three generations after the Greatest Generation.

 

Downer? Yes. Agreed. More and more we started noticing only those on US public employment defined-benefit pensions are the ones still able to travel as lavishly as the past. The rest who depended upon investment income to supplement retirement are down-sizing their travel ambitions dramatically.

[Boytjie]

I thought MSC sailed from Port Everglades?

 

Poesia is sailing from Port Everglades now but Divina will homeport in Miami.

[mariner]

Well public pensions depend on someone else so time is fleeting.

[foodgirl]

I know what you are saying as DH is not retired and we can only be away about 17 days MAX. There will still be cruises to Alaska and Canada/NE.....one for east coasters and one for west coast. Mexico cruises seem to have fizzled to a precious few.

 

 

We are glad for that. We hope to do the NE trip next year and them back to Alaska which we love. The Caribbean is nice for us as we have family near the port so we always drive and stay with them the night before sailing. We will enjoy it as long as we can as we love cruising over other types of travel.

[Richie2pies]

How many times can you go to the same lousy ports? Most ports in the Caribbean are poverty stricken and don't have much except a Diamonds International. I think the Caribbean is past it's prime.

[Wakepatrol]

I think they've had it with the penny pinching and demand for low, low, lower pricing from all of us in Canada/U.S. North Americans are onto how to 'play' the cruise lines and get it about upgrades, upsells, OBC, book late rather than early and they likely will have a number of years in new markets where they can demand and get high per diems and sell cruises for what they should be sold for. The prices 80% of the cabins are sold for make it impossible to have a quality product anymore. Maybe they're getting tired of it?

 

Don't know..... just 'musing'.

 

Exactly! Go to a new market where the customers aren't attempting to go on a 7 day cruise for $399 bring their own beverages then remove the hotel service charge at the end of the cruise. What business person with any brains would want a boatload of these schmoes... trip after trip? Sounds like a good way to go under real fast.

[mariner]

Well it will cost more to go elsewhere in a short period of timr

[Himself]

Eurodam Oct 2013 - Mar 2014

Nieuw Amsterdam Oct 2013 - Mar 2014

Zuiderdam Oct 2013 - Apr 2014

Westerdam Nov 2013 - Mar 2014

 

As usual.

 

The Oasis goes to Europe for maintenance + three PR cruises.

 

MSC Divina starts all year round from MIA.

 

In addition to that the Statendam is doing a full Panama Canal cruise between Ft. Lauderdale and San Diego and back. So she comes into Port Everglades about once a month. The Zuiderdam does 10 and 11 day cruises that do a partial transit of the Panama Canal and the Noordam does ten and eleven day cruises out of Ft. Lauderdale.

The Ryndam does Caribbean cruise out of Tampa and the Princendam and Maasdam also come into Ft. Lauderdale. HAL now has 15 ships and so it is under is understandable that HAL will not have all ships deployed in the Caribbean.

 

Most ships get out of the Caribbean in the summer because of the intense heat and hurricanes which are not uncommon in the Caribbean.

[BruceMuzz]

Why head the Med for drydock unless you were testing the waters?

 

There are actually a few drydocks in North America that can accommodate 220,000 ton ships. But there are not nearly enough American shipyard workers who have any knowledge or experience in renovating ships built in Europe or Asia.

The few Americans who do know how to do the work take twice as long and demand 5 times as much money to do it.

US Immigration will no longer issue work visas for the European shipyard workers to do the work in North American shipyards.

It is actually less expensive for the cruise lines to move the ships to Canada (Smaller ships) or Europe or Asia (Larger ships) to get the work done. After drydock, they can run a few local cruises to help pay for the extra fuel for the transatlantic crossing.

[DFD1]

Interesting thread. Lots of speculaiton.

 

I agree the bloom is off the Caribbean, but it had a remarkably long bloom season.

 

It has probably lost its profitability, especially for small to medium sized ships.

 

Air fares seem to be hurting the Med, and probably reducing the profitability of that area.

 

IMO

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Good for me .

[sail7seas]

Good for me .

 

:confused: Huh?

 

Right over my head; no idea what this means.

Can you help? :)

Thanks.

 

[mafig]

I think Norwegian will have a brand new ship year-round in the Caribbean next year.

[kazu]

Here is what I found from CLIA:

 5 Year Change in geographic deployment (2006-2011) bed day percent change /share shift

o Caribbean + 13.5 percent / -5.5 points

o Mediterranean + 109.38 percent / +7.5 points

o Europe/Scandinavia +24.61 percent / -.5 points

o Alaska + 4.66 percent / -1.62 points

o Bahamas +7.2 percent / -1.4 points

o Mexico (West): -32.6 percent / -3.1 points

o Transatlantic: +111.2% / +1.08 points

o Australia/New Zealand/S. Pacific: 101.2 percent / +.93 points

o Trans Canal: -3.91 percent/ -.94 points

o South America: +81.7 percent / +.67 points

o Hawaii: -23.9% percent / -1.5 points

 

http://www.cruising.org/sites/default/files/pressroom/2012CruiseIndustryUpdateFinal.pdf

 

Looks like the Mediterranean, Australia/South Pacific,Scandinavia, South America and trans Atlantic are the target areas with the Med being the clear winner.

 

Very interesting - thanks for sharing. While we have been known to 'escape the cold to the Caribbean', most of our trips in the past have been aimed at the Med, Australia, South America, Baltics, Europe and transatlantics - so the more choices there the better for us:D

[George C]

I love my Caribbean cruises 85 , have done 55 cruises and only a few of them were not Caribbean. If I can not get one I like I will just do a Sandalls or another good AI. Also like Hawaii and Europe but for the cost I take the Caribbean.

[sppunk]

Good news for me, a better choice of destinations (not a Carribean cruise fan)!

 

In honesty larger ships are going their for profit whie "smaller" ships chase the lucrative fares elsewhere. New ships are coming online strictly for the Carribean, keep in mind. NCL from NY, RCLs new NJ-based ship, Carnival's new ones, etc.

 

Asia and Australia are the new hot market and Asia will only explode. The infrastructure is rounding into shape in many ports. Alaska will see a pullback next year iirc, too.

[sail7seas]

I love my Caribbean cruises 85 , have done 55 cruises and only a few of them were not Caribbean. If I can not get one I like I will just do a Sandalls or another good AI. Also like Hawaii and Europe but for the cost I take the Caribbean.

 

 

I agree. We love those leisurely Caribbean cruises.

Yes, we've loved cruises in Europe, Alaska, Canada/NE but we are no where near tired of our Caribbean cruises. :)

 

I won't fly to Australia and DH is not retired so we don't have time for a very long cruise.

 

 

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

How many times can you go to the same lousy ports? Most ports in the Caribbean are poverty stricken and don't have much except a Diamonds International. I think the Caribbean is past it's prime.

 

It may be possible many folks are "Caribbean-ed" out. Maybe they've been there a gazillion times and are tired of it. Maybe HAL is seeing an uptick in bookings for the more exotic ports of call, like Asia, S. America, S. Pacific, Australia and New Zealand. These cruises are longer and cost more, hence more profit for HAL. That being said, these "exotic" cruises cost much more in money and time. Well-to-do folks who are retired have both. Some people have the money but not the time or vice-versa. Anyway, something has caused a shift in the industry. Perhaps there are more well-to-do retirees now (Boomer-fueled?) than before and they demand the longer and more exotic itineraries. HAL would rather cater to that crowd than those who can only afford (in time and/or money) to do a 7-day Caribbean jaunt. Since Carnival owns HAL, maybe they figure that the 7-day demographic can shift to Carnival on the big behemoths with 5,000 partiers per ship. Not me, that is for sure. I like the smaller HAL ships and will continue to sail on them until they are no more. Maybe someday I can afford a longer, more exotic cruise, but right now that is not in the cards for me. So if they price me out, I will just find another way to enjoy my vacations. I am sure HAL won't care, as long as they are filling their ships on whatever itineraries they choose to sail, and their profits are up.

[Randyk47]

It may be possible many folks are "Caribbean-ed" out. Maybe they've been there a gazillion times and are tired of it. Maybe HAL is seeing an uptick in bookings for the more exotic ports of call, like Asia, S. America, S. Pacific, Australia and New Zealand. These cruises are longer and cost more, hence more profit for HAL. That being said, these "exotic" cruises cost much more in money and time. Well-to-do folks who are retired have both. Some people have the money but not the time or vice-versa. Anyway, something has caused a shift in the industry. Perhaps there are more well-to-do retirees now (Boomer-fueled?) than before and they demand the longer and more exotic itineraries. HAL would rather cater to that crowd than those who can only afford (in time and/or money) to do a 7-day Caribbean jaunt. Since Carnival owns HAL, maybe they figure that the 7-day demographic can shift to Carnival on the big behemoths with 5,000 partiers per ship. Not me, that is for sure. I like the smaller HAL ships and will continue to sail on them until they are no more. Maybe someday I can afford a longer, more exotic cruise, but right now that is not in the cards for me. So if they price me out, I will just find another way to enjoy my vacations. I am sure HAL won't care, as long as they are filling their ships on whatever itineraries they choose to sail, and their profits are up.

 

That's pretty much our feelings and thoughts. Add what we think is a degradation in the HAL experience over the years and we're moving on.

[Typhoon1]

It's all about dollars and cents.

 

If they can make a larger profit elsewhere, they will focus their efforts there.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Just this week I spoke with a Royal Caribbean Rep and basically they had no choice to to take the Oasis to Europe for Dry Dock. Then in order to do this they did basically need to keep her in Europe for a while to recoup the costs but in doing this they had to work with the ports where she will be docking for Europe cruises to make sure they could accommodate such a large ship. This has actually been something that has been in the works for several years so that the ports could BUILD larger accommodations for the Oasis, of course this also paved the way for the Allure when it will be her time to go into Dry Dock. Royal Caribbean would have much preferred to keep her close to Florida but that was never an option as far as a ship yard that could handle her dry dock. So her going to Europe has nothing to do with ships leaving the Caribbean, but rather a necessity.

 

As to Sail's original question in all honesty I do NOT see there being less Caribbean Cruises being offered, Yes maybe from Holland America that they are shortening slightly each year the amount of weeks they spend in the Caribbean but certainly not from other cruise lines. Holland America has had a very hard time competing in the Caribbean market. They have had to drop their prices drastically to sell the berths they have, then those passengers they get on board are truly not what HAL wants because they also do NOT spend any money on board to make up for the revenue lost on giving away the cabin. Royal Caribbean is basically the WINNER in Caribbean with selling out ships at a premium and on board spending being high. But the passenger that sails Royal Caribbean is not the demographics that look at Holland America. Norwegian is also doing well in the Caribbean and also bringing in a much higher berth pricing. Oddly Princess which generally has the same demographic as HAL is also doing well in the Caribbean but they are also offering some great special LOW pricing to past passengers when booking early unlike HAL that starts their pricing extremely high and has to give the cabins closer to the sailing. Princess is sold at a much higher percentage at final because the current pricing is higher that new passengers purchasing or at least for the most part. yes there could be an occasional sailing they need to reduce but not often. I have the opportunity to talk to cruiser daily and Holland America's biggest problem is not just that they are perceived as being the cruise line with senior passengers but that they have OLD small ships.. Everyone now wants a balcony. S and R Class ships do not have that. The word Suite and the price scares too many off. HAL ultimately is trying to find a new niche market because Caribbean is not doing it for them in profitability. HAL does best selling longer exotic voyages which is why they are leaving the Caribbean earlier and arrivng later each year because HAL has been testing the waters with the voyages and have done quite well. I could see HAL only have a couple of ships such as the Nieuw Amsterdam and Eurodam only doing Caribbean in the Future. That way they could charge a premium with having less ships for those that want HAL.

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

That's pretty much our feelings and thoughts. Add what we think is a degradation in the HAL experience over the years and we're moving on.

 

I have been disappointed in Carnival and RCI in the past, so when the time came to cruise, I jumped over to HAL and enjoyed the smaller ship and (perceived) better service and food, at least on my Alaska cruise. We have done a lot of land tours with Globus, and continue to do so today, and have been very pleased. If HAL starts to disappoint, we will

always have Globus for tours, or go to a land-based resort for "time in the sun" in the Caribbean. Sometimes a company can follow the profit trail so diligently, that they end up losing loyal customers in the process. I hope that doesn't happen.