Disappointed with RCCL

[SoCalTraveler]

I believe they are handling this as a ADA complaint, because we were in an accessible cabin. The person I'm dealing with stated that they have by law 30 days to contact me in writing outlining what their findings were and how they plan to rectify the problems in my complaint.

 

Truly I don't believe this is an accessible problem as much as just a problem with RCL's plans all together. I would not have been happy being told I was going to have a sofa bed, and show up and get that chair no matter what cabin I was in, Accessible or not.

Laura: I think there is an accessibility issue here. It may well be that with a sofa bed you cannot really have someone in the cabin using a wheelchair. To be ADA compliant you would need to test out the cabin with the sofa bed open. Of course, that does not change my point that once RCI tells you there is a sofa bed and the room will handle the three of you, RCI has accepted 100% of the responsibility for that room being accessible. What if all three of you needed wheelchairs? What about two? What if someone used a walker or crutches. Did RCI ask? Did RCI care?

 

If RCI wants to say that this is a handicap accessible room which will sleep 4, it is up to RCI to describe the limitations, so that those people who have real problems with architectural barriers or other accomodation issues get what they have paid for, and enjoy the vacation they have booked.

[poncho1973]

Serious question: does a ship of foreign registry have to be ADA-compliant?

 

 

Not-as-serious comment: it boggles my mind how many people think ADA is worldwide and forget the first A is "Americans."

[SoCalTraveler]

Serious question: does a ship of foreign registry have to be ADA-compliant?

 

 

Not-as-serious comment: it boggles my mind how many people think ADA is worldwide and forget the first A is "Americans."

I assume that ADA does not extend to foreign flagged ships. I have no idea, so perhaps the lawyers who post here have an opinion.

 

From observation, I would say that cruising attracts a higher percentage of people who have health or mobility issues because the cruise ship is like a resort. On the other hand, I see very few American tourists in wheelchairs on the Metro in Paris or the Tube in London. Heck, I can't recall seeing the French or English in wheelchairs in those places.

 

The cruising industry would like to keep attracting those people. To that end, the cruising industry offers cabins which are said to be handicapped accessible, with wider doorways, grab bars in the showers, and no thresholds for the bathroom, shower, or to the balcony. Their are fold down seats in handicapped accesible showers for those who cannot stand on their own, and easily accessible emergency cords.

 

If a cruise line developed a reputation that it was not quite as handicapped accessible as it said, word of that would circulate in that community, and, for example, on boards like those maintained by Cruise Critic.

 

So whether ADA is worldwide (it's not), I think as a practical matter, if not legally required because the ship docks here though foreign flagged, it is practically required.

 

Having said that, it boggles the mind that RCI hasn't figured out how to respond to Laura, despite admitting it did not deliver what it promised, i.e., the sofa bed. As I observed above, if I was told I was getting a sofa in my room and did not, and thus had less seating capacity, I'd be annoyed. I don't have the same issues as Laura, so my annoyance is like not getting lobster night. I would not let the lack of a sofa trash my vacation any more than Laura let the lack of a sofa bed for her son trash their vacation.

 

And RCI could have solved this problem easily. It's clear Laura is a frequent cruiser and wants to travel on RCI again. All that customer service had to do was apologize (which I think they have, although it took a bit) and give Laura a certificate for a deep discount on a future cruise with her son. (Which they haven't.) Laura would have posted here, as others often do, what swell people RCI employs, and many of the readers of this thread would have expressed their admiration for RCI much like you see on a bunch of the Grandeur threads.

 

I have my own issues with RCI from my last cruise, and I covered those in my review. My issues do not rise to the level of Laura's, and I make no claim that they do. However, I have not received a response to a letter to Mr. Goldstein in February, nor did we receive the promised 24 hour response to a comment my wife turned in to guest services on the ship, and we did not get a response to the surveys we took outlining these problems. I think the lack of a prompt response is par for the course for RCI. Whether or not ADA applies on the ship, it is pretty much understood wherever one travels in the civilized world that if you tell somone he is getting a sofa bed, and you don't deliver, you need to make amends. You do not get to charge full price for the third person in the room and then deliver a substandard experience.

[broberts]

. . .

And RCI could have solved this problem easily. It's clear Laura is a frequent cruiser and wants to travel on RCI again. All that customer service had to do was apologize (which I think they have, although it took a bit) and give Laura a certificate for a deep discount on a future cruise with her son. (Which they haven't.) Laura would have posted here, as others often do, what swell people RCI employs, and many of the readers of this thread would have expressed their admiration for RCI much like you see on a bunch of the Grandeur threads.

. . .

 

 

Not that easily solved. I believe OP made the post to warn other unsuspecting passengers. It's my impression she is interested in learning how RCI is going to correct the practice of disseminating inaccurate and/or misleading cabin configuration information.

[SoCalTraveler]

Not that easily solved. I believe OP made the post to warn other unsuspecting passengers. It's my impression she is interested in learning how RCI is going to correct the practice of disseminating inaccurate and/or misleading cabin configuration information.

 

It is possible that the correction is that a handicap accessible room is unsuitable for 3. In which case RCI can say so.

[xxHadleyxx]

It is possible that the correction is that a handicap accessible room is unsuitable for 3. In which case RCI can say so.

 

Actually, it sounds like it would be suitable for three IF the handicapped individual is planning on sleeping in the queen sized bed with another adult and the third person is a non handicapped child able to sleep on the little chair.

 

The problem comes in stating that there is a sofa bed (not true) so that people reasonably assume that there is space for an adult, or someone who needs more space than a twin due to movements, etc, to sleep alone in that area while two non handicapped adults use the main bed.

 

 

OP--I am glad you took the time to warn people of this issue. You seem to be fair and honest in your assessments and not be trying to villain-ize RCI at all, but also wanting to make things better for others so no one else ends up in a bad situation like you did.

[Cindy]

I believe they are handling this as a ADA complaint, because we were in an accessible cabin. The person I'm dealing with stated that they have by law 30 days to contact me in writing outlining what their findings were and how they plan to rectify the problems in my complaint.

 

Truly I don't believe this is an accessible problem as much as just a problem with RCL's plans all together. I would not have been happy being told I was going to have a sofa bed, and show up and get that chair no matter what cabin I was in, Accessible or not.

 

Thanks, Laura. I wasn't aware of that law.

I actually think the problem is two-fold...I'm not sure a cabin that is accessible for two is big enough to still be wheelchair accessible with a sofa bed pulled out, so there is an accessibility issue. The other problem, in my opinion, is that there can often be an "information gap" between the reservation agents and the reality on a ship. That goes not just for accessible cabins, but any unique locations or configurations. Those of us who have cruised a lot or discovered CC can often overcome that, but it makes the booking process even more overwhelming for newbies when they can't get accurate information.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Cindy

[laurac22]

Not that easily solved. I believe OP made the post to warn other unsuspecting passengers. It's my impression she is interested in learning how RCI is going to correct the practice of disseminating inaccurate and/or misleading cabin configuration information.

I absolutely made this post to warn other disabled and able bodied persons to be very careful when booking their cabins. to make sure they understand completely what it is they are getting, as it seems the RCL plans can be very misleading, and the Reps only have that to go on.

However I will not lie and say that was my only reason. I do hope to receive adequate compensation for my family. This vacation cost more than any other vacation we have ever taken, If we would have been on a land based vacation, and I walked in to a hotel to find that my accommodations were no correct I would expect them to correct them on spot, or I would walk out and find a place that could meet our needs. We were unable in this situation to get it rectified while on the cruise, so I would expect not to have to pay top dollar for accommodations we did not receive and RCL should fix it now.

[laurac22]

Actually, it sounds like it would be suitable for three IF the handicapped individual is planning on sleeping in the queen sized bed with another adult and the third person is a non handicapped child able to sleep on the little chair.

 

The problem comes in stating that there is a sofa bed (not true) so that people reasonably assume that there is space for an adult, or someone who needs more space than a twin due to movements, etc, to sleep alone in that area while two non handicapped adults use the main bed.

 

 

OP--I am glad you took the time to warn people of this issue. You seem to be fair and honest in your assessments and not be trying to villain-ize RCI at all, but also wanting to make things better for others so no one else ends up in a bad situation like you did.

Yes I believe this is RCL standing on the subject, as I was told by Loyalty that RCL assumes that the handicap person in the room would be in the main bed. If that is the case then that is just ignorance on their part. Disabilities vary greatly and the dynamics of the families effected as well. Companies as large as RCL should not be making assumptions like this. IMO

[laurac22]

Thanks, Laura. I wasn't aware of that law.

I actually think the problem is two-fold...I'm not sure a cabin that is accessible for two is big enough to still be wheelchair accessible with a sofa bed pulled out, so there is an accessibility issue. The other problem, in my opinion, is that there can often be an "information gap" between the reservation agents and the reality on a ship. That goes not just for accessible cabins, but any unique locations or configurations. Those of us who have cruised a lot or discovered CC can often overcome that, but it makes the booking process even more overwhelming for newbies when they can't get accurate information.

The deck plans for our cabin said it slept 4. The rep told we it could actually sleep 5. It was not a 2 person cabin.

 

We are not newbies and had this experience, so yes I wanted to post for newbies and everyone else to prevent this from happening.

[Paul65]

I hope all gets resolved to your satisfaction, but I still think people are over-dramatizing the chair bed. It's obviously not a full sized sofabed, and that understandably caused you problems with your situation. But I'm a 6' 3" guy, and I've slept in a chair bed very similar to that. It's not really like it's only suitable for a small child.

 

Of course, I'd rather sleep in a king sized real bed. I haven't sleep in any sort of sofabed that I thought was just as good as a regular bed (but some come close).

 

As for application of the ADA, it does apply to cruise ships that call on US ports, regardless of the country of registry of the ship. There was a court ruling a few years back with NCL that established this. But there are some limits to exactly how it applies that can get tricky.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Paul65

[laurac22]

I hope all gets resolved to your satisfaction, but I still think people are over-dramatizing the chair bed. It's obviously not a full sized sofabed, and that understandably caused you problems with your situation. But I'm a 6' 3" guy, and I've slept in a chair bed very similar to that. It's not really like it's only suitable for a small child.

 

Of course, I'd rather sleep in a king sized real bed. I haven't sleep in any sort of sofabed that I thought was just as good as a regular bed (but some come close).

 

As for application of the ADA, it does apply to cruise ships that call on US ports, regardless of the country of registry of the ship. There was a court ruling a few years back with NCL that established this. But there are some limits to exactly how it applies that can get tricky.

I am certainly not saying that we are to good to sleep on that chair bed. In fact I have spent plenty of time on vacation sleeping in a tent on the ground. In those cases however I expected those accommodations, and paid accordingly for the campsite. I would expect better accommodation for the money I paid for this vacation on the largest cruise ship in the world.

[Paul65]

I am certainly not saying that we are to good to sleep on that chair bed. In fact I have spent plenty of time on vacation sleeping in a tent on the ground. In those cases however I expected those accommodations, and paid accordingly for the campsite. I would expect better accommodation for the money I paid for this vacation on the largest cruise ship in the world.

 

I understand your issues. I was referring more to several other people who have suggested it would only work for a small child.

[laurac22]

I understand your issues. I was referring more to several other people who have suggested it would only work for a small child.

Thank you, I understand what you are saying.

 

I am concerned that I'm starting to sound whiny, Which I absolutely do not want to happen! LOL

[SoCalTraveler]

I hope all gets resolved to your satisfaction, but I still think people are over-dramatizing the chair bed. It's obviously not a full sized sofabed, and that understandably caused you problems with your situation. But I'm a 6' 3" guy, and I've slept in a chair bed very similar to that. It's not really like it's only suitable for a small child.

 

Of course, I'd rather sleep in a king sized real bed. I haven't sleep in any sort of sofabed that I thought was just as good as a regular bed (but some come close).

 

As for application of the ADA, it does apply to cruise ships that call on US ports, regardless of the country of registry of the ship. There was a court ruling a few years back with NCL that established this. But there are some limits to exactly how it applies that can get tricky.

The court case holding that ADA applies to foreign flagged cruise ships which stop in the United States is Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Lines. It is a 2005 decision by the Supreme Court. Here is a link to the opinion. It appears quite complex.

 

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/545/03-1388/opinion.html

[silverfoxcruiser]

Laura -- it seems to me that the PTB are waiting for this issue to die down and interest decrease. The longer you (and we) wait for an answer, the bigger the compensation should be, IMO. This is not an appropriate issue to ignore. How many more days until the 30 day time limit expires? Silver

[Starry Eyes]

It is possible that the correction is that a handicap accessible room is unsuitable for 3. In which case RCI can say so.

You have a point. It might be easiest for RCI to simply change the cabin capacity to two, eliminating the entire sofa bed issue. Or perhaps to they could change the capacity to three, specifying the Pullman as the third bed (implying that the disabled person would use a lower bed). Either way, they'd eliminate the question raised here about WC maneuverability with the sofa bed (or chair bed) deployed.

[laurac22]

Laura -- it seems to me that the PTB are waiting for this issue to die down and interest decrease. The longer you (and we) wait for an answer, the bigger the compensation should be, IMO. This is not an appropriate issue to ignore. How many more days until the 30 day time limit expires? Silver

I sent the email on the 12TH of May. I received a call back about 4 days later. Not sure if they are going from first contact or the latter.

[ryano]

Th.

 

I am concerned that I'm starting to sound whiny, Which I absolutely do not want to happen! LOL

 

I wouldnt be too concerned :) You have an actual legit gripe and for the first time ever on Cruise Critic that ive seen at least, I think everyone is on your side with this! Im actually amazed!

[laurac22]

You have a point. It might be easiest for RCI to simply change the cabin capacity to two, eliminating the entire sofa bed issue. Or perhaps to they could change the capacity to three, specifying the Pullman as the third bed (implying that the disabled person would use a lower bed). Either way, they'd eliminate the question raised here about WC maneuverability with the sofa bed (or chair bed) deployed.

If this is the case, and they can not find away to make these cabins usable for at least three people, (without the use of the chair), that leaves out at large number of special needs family's . I will not get on my soap box, but family's like mine already do not have a large selection of cabins to choose from, and much of the time we will find the AC cabins already booked. I find it believe that RCL could not have done a better job designing these ships. IMO they really missed the boat, there are a very large amount of disabled cruisers now, with larger numbers to come. I really think they need to take a close look at this problem and find a solution. Again IMO

[laurac22]

If this is the case, and they can not find away to make these cabins usable for at least three people, (without the use of the chair), that leaves out at large number of special needs family's . I will not get on my soap box, but family's like mine already do not have a large selection of cabins to choose from, and much of the time we will find the AC cabins already booked. I find it believe that RCL could not have done a better job designing these ships. IMO they really missed the boat, there are a very large amount of disabled cruisers now, with larger numbers to come. I really think they need to take a close look at this problem and find a solution. Again IMO

I apologize for all the typing mistakes. Must be still asleep!

[Aplmac]

..and have found no easier Deck Plans to read than those at cruisecheap.com

where they are larger than most and therefore more easily read.

 

I found their Deck Plans for Oasis at

http://www.cruisecheap.com/c/deckplan.php?SailDate=&ShipID=250591&DeckNumber=12

 

Clicking on AX Accessible Cabin 12166

a little mini-window pops up showing a pleasant-enough cabin

with blurb to be read, if the reader scrolls down.

 

I see:

Some staterooms are equipped with a sofa bed

and/or upper Pullman-style bunk bed(s)

to accommodate a third or fourth guest.

 

There is also a diamond motif in that cabin space

-the key panel at left also tells me that the little diamond means..

Stateroom with sofa bed and Pullman bed available.

(Stateroom can accommodate 4 guests)

 

so I would assume (as did the OP) that this cabin would be good to go, for her purposes.

 

I'm presuming this info found at cruisecheap.com was obtained from RCI themselves?

(in other words, CruiseCheap didn't just make it up?)

RCI needs to correct this false info.

 

.

[SoCalTraveler]

..and have found no easier Deck Plans to read than those at cruisecheap.com

where they are larger than most and therefore more easily read.

 

I found their Deck Plans for Oasis at

http://www.cruisecheap.com/c/deckplan.php?SailDate=&ShipID=250591&DeckNumber=12

 

Clicking on AX Accessible Cabin 12166

a little mini-window pops up showing a pleasant-enough cabin

with blurb to be read, if the reader scrolls down.

 

I see:

Some staterooms are equipped with a sofa bed

and/or upper Pullman-style bunk bed(s)

to accommodate a third or fourth guest.

 

There is also a diamond motif in that cabin space

-the key panel at left also tells me that the little diamond means..

Stateroom with sofa bed and Pullman bed available.

(Stateroom can accommodate 4 guests)

 

so I would assume (as did the OP) that this cabin would be good to go, for her purposes.

 

I'm presuming this info found at cruisecheap.com was obtained from RCI themselves?

(in other words, CruiseCheap didn't just make it up?)

RCI needs to correct this false info.

 

.

The room may indeed accomodate 4 people. It just can't accomodate 4 handicapped people. It may not be able to accomodate 3 people if the sofabed is opened. I don't think anyone would expect someone in a wheeelchair to use a pullman bed, but, as I've said, I don't know how accessible the room is if the third person is in the sofa bed (when one exists) and needs to use his or her wheelchair. It is not even clear to me that there is enough access for the wheelchair bound guest to use the inside portion of the queen bed. The only way you solve that problem is by putting someone in that room in a wheelcair testing all configurations. Then you can say what can and cannot be accomodated.

[broberts]

The issue is that Royal Caribbean insists on calling a chair-bed a sofa-bed. It is not restricted to accessible cabins or any particular class of ship. I encountered a chair-bed in a Radiance class balcony.

 

Until Royal Caribbean sees fit to accurately portray its products, a good rule of thumb is that if it has a a "sofa-bed" and sleeps four with a Pullman or sleeps 3, it will have what everyone, (but Royal Caribbean), calls a chair-bed.

Edited June 7, 2013 by broberts

[Starry Eyes]

If this is the case, and they can not find away to make these cabins usable for at least three people, (without the use of the chair), that leaves out at large number of special needs family's . I will not get on my soap box, but family's like mine already do not have a large selection of cabins to choose from, and much of the time we will find the AC cabins already booked. I find it believe that RCL could not have done a better job designing these ships. IMO they really missed the boat, there are a very large amount of disabled cruisers now, with larger numbers to come. I really think they need to take a close look at this problem and find a solution. Again IMO

Two twin beds (convertible to queen) plus a Pullman bed makes a cabin usable by three people if one person is willing and able to use the Pullman.

 

My younger brother is a para and encounters accessibility problems now and then. When I had guarantee bookings, DH and I been assigned accessible cabins a couple times (NCL and RCL). Remembering those cabins, I could imagine my brother in there with us if I used a Pullman while the men used twin beds, but I could not imagine my brother could maneuver his wheelchair in those rooms with a queen bed and a double sofa bed. It just did not seem like enough space. I had the same impression when I toured accessible cabins during cabin crawls on other lines and ships, so I have the impression that it is a common problem. Of course, my impression of the space needed for the wheelchair might be incorrect (or variable among WC users). Even my impression of space needed for AB adults is different than others. Our standard cabin for two on Oasis seemed a tad tight, but the same size cabin next door held four that week. that would have been too crowded for me and would have been totally out of the question for DH.