Travel advisory for Dubai and UAE -

[pmacher61]

Remember that you are not in Kansas anymore. Behave accordingly.

http://blogs.wsj.com/middleeast/2013/12/24/jailed-in-the-uae-for-posting-parody-video/?mod=wsj_streaming_stream&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=%2AMorning%20Brief&utm_campaign=MB%2012.24.13

The Ministry of Justice in Abu Dhabi wasn’t available to comment.

[cruisemom42]

Am I missing something? Travel advisories are usually issued by governments, and I didn't see any reference to that in the link posted.

 

:confused:

 

Is this just something you are posting as information for other travelers?

[pmacher61]

Am I missing something?

 

Is this just something you are posting as information for other travelers?

No. Yes.

[Antonintassie]

Hi We travel to the UAE as a family on a regular basis ,never felt unsafe or threatened by the place or the culture the people are friendly helpful and welcoming .If you are in anybodies country you play by their rules

[Keith1010]

I too feel safe in the UAE.

 

Keith

[suron]

I too feel safe travelling around Dubai on my own. It is easy - when in a foreign country abide by their rules and you can't go wrong. The UAE has some wonderful sights, friendly people and wherever I have been the cities are clean and inviting. Dubai will be my holiday destination for a long time to come now as my son, his wife any my twin grandsons are living out there (son now working for Emirates). They are all very happy and enjoying all the UAE has to offer. A wonderful experience, especially for the twins who are growing up in a multi-cultural environment, have friends of all nationalities and have settled well. Sadly there are some people who think they can do whatever they like and then wonder why they come unstuck if they break the rules.

 

Suron

[pmacher61]

Sadly there are some people who think they can do whatever they like and then wonder why they come unstuck if they break the rules.

 

Suron

Hmm. And exactly what rules would that be? Did you bother to read the WJS article reporting on jail sentences for nothing more heinous than publishing parody on a social network, parody that hurt the country's image?

 

What rules would it be "sad" for people to think they should not break? Talking one's mind about social issues? Making fun of the government or a religious ideology? A ban on holding hands in public or falling in love with someone of your own sex? Why is the attempt to achieve greater personal freedom from Neanderthal, oppressive rules that restrict personal freedom considered to make for a sad situation? Why wouldn't it be considered progressive to break such restrictions? After all, we in the west take such freedoms for granted.

Shall we just celebrate the absence of street crime and think that this makes a wonderful social environment regardless of all else? Monarchy? No thank you. In any case the delta between the mores in UAE and the mores (and laws) of those typically reading these forums is so great that a reminder that such places still do exist and that punishment is really severe is warranted.

 

We now return you to your regular programming.

Edited December 27, 2013 by pmacher61

[PaulMCO]

Hmm. And exactly what rules would that be? Did you bother to read the WJS article reporting on jail sentences for nothing more heinous than publishing parody on a social network, parody that hurt the country's image?

 

What rules would it be "sad" for people to think they should not break? Talking one's mind about social issues? Making fun of the government or a religious ideology? A ban on holding hands in public or falling in love with someone of your own sex? Why is the attempt to achieve greater personal freedom from Neanderthal, oppressive rules that restrict personal freedom considered to make for a sad situation? Why wouldn't it be considered progressive to break such restrictions? After all, we in the west take such freedoms for granted.

Shall we just celebrate the absence of street crime and think that this makes a wonderful social environment regardless of all else? Monarchy? No thank you. In any case the delta between the mores in UAE and the mores (and laws) of those typically reading these forums is so great that a reminder that such places still do exist and that punishment is really severe is warranted.

 

We now return you to your regular programming.

 

 

Thank you for that diatribe..

[pmacher61]

if the shoe fits....

[Zach1213]

The title of this thread definitely makes it sound like some official advisory...

 

UAE is definitely safe if you aren't stupid. Boring, but safe. ;)

 

If you're stupid, it can bite you in the ass, whether you are in UAE, Pakistan, France, Australia, wherever.

[pmacher61]

The title of this thread definitely makes it sound like some official advisory...

UAE is definitely safe if you aren't stupid. Boring, but safe. ;)

If you're stupid, it can bite you in the ass, whether you are in UAE, Pakistan, France, Australia, wherever.

 

The purpose of the original post was to bring home the fact that conduct which we, in western democracies, regard as perfectly acceptable may lead to imprisonment in the UAE. If the heading made it seem as an official, i.e., government, travel advisory (unintentional) I apologize (if one is even needed) for the choice of ambiguous language, but not for posting the warning.

 

p.s. Even intelligent travelers can be ignorant of the civil rights laws of a foreign country, especially when those civil rights are so very different than the rights afforded to residents of the countries they come from.

 

p.p.s. Yes, if you act "stupidly", you may get in trouble in any place, but with respect to simple freedom of speech (the subject of this post) do you really believe the laws of France and Australia are not vastly different than those of the UAE and Pakistan.

Edited December 31, 2013 by pmacher61

[Jacs]

Your posts sound very arrogant I'm sorry to say. Different countries have different laws and rules to obey. You are a guest in that country and can't expect to be able to do just what you would do at home. If you don't feel like you should conform to those rules then don't visit that country. Just because in your opinion the laws are wrong and Neanderthal, doesn't mean the citizens on that country feel the same way.

[pmacher61]

Your posts sound very arrogant I'm sorry to say. Different countries have different laws and rules to obey. You are a guest in that country and can't expect to be able to do just what you would do at home. If you don't feel like you should conform to those rules then don't visit that country. Just because in your opinion the laws are wrong and Neanderthal, doesn't mean the citizens on that country feel the same way.

You know what they say...you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed and illogical it may be.

p.s I don't believe I said one should be able to do whatever one wants just like at home. After all, I posted to warn that unsuspecting cruisers might not be aware that conduct okay at home might land them in jail in the UAE. It wasn't about choosing to disobey the law, it was about knowing what the law is.

p.p.s. And yes, I do believe that such restrictions on free speech as exist in the UAE are Neanderthal and unethical, but that's just me.

Edited January 2, 2014 by pmacher61

[Jacs]

Well as you say, you're entitled to your opinion....

[pmacher61]

Well as you say, you're entitled to your opinion....

Yep, me and the founding fathers, authors of our constitution.

Edited January 3, 2014 by pmacher61

[Zach1213]

p.p.s. Yes, if you act "stupidly", you may get in trouble in any place, but with respect to simple freedom of speech (the subject of this post) do you really believe the laws of France and Australia are not vastly different than those of the UAE and Pakistan.

 

I think that if you're going someplace that's even a bit out of the norm (i.e. not Europe or Australia, but places like Asia, Africa, Middle East), you need to do some research. If someone goes to Jordan expecting to act like they do in Oregon, they deserve the punishment for any stupid acts they do.

 

And that's considering that Jordan is pretty liberal by Arab World standards!

[Jacs]

Yep, me and the founding fathers, authors of our constitution.

 

Ahh, see there's that arrogance again. The USA is but one country in this big vast world of ours, your laws and constitution are not universal. And I'll point out as you said "your" constitution, not the UAE's or even Australia's, which incedently doesn't have freedom of speech laws per se as you assumed we did.

[pmacher61]

I think that if you're going someplace that's even a bit out of the norm (i.e. not Europe or Australia, but places like Asia, Africa, Middle East), you need to do some research. If someone goes to Jordan expecting to act like they do in Oregon, they deserve the punishment for any stupid acts they do.

 

And that's considering that Jordan is pretty liberal by Arab World standards!

I agree that doing research is fine, but generally speaking, the average cruiser doesn't research freedom of speech laws or other restrictions on civil rights of the various jurisdictions on the itinerary (ergo my post).

 

I don't agree that Oregonian cruisers going to Jordan deserve the punishment they get for doing "stupid" acts without further qualifying what the "stupid" act is. Wearing a short skirt, kissing in public, unmarrieds sharing a hotel room, manifestation of homosexuality, or even just carrying a bible into Saudi Arabia might land one in jail in the KSA, UAE, or Malaysia, but I would not consider anyone committing those acts necessarily stupid, just ignorant.

 

Ahh, see there's that arrogance again. The USA is but one country in this big vast world of ours, your laws and constitution are not universal. And I'll point out as you said "your" constitution, not the UAE's or even Australia's, which incedently doesn't have freedom of speech laws per se as you assumed we did.

 

What you call arrogance I regard as the desirable absence of ethical relativism. Yes, indeed, I think that often in human affairs, there is a right and there is a wrong - not everything is or should be relative. Stoning adulterers or executing blasphemers may be the law in some jurisdictions, but I regard such practices as evil. That you think me arrogant for taking an ethical position demonstrates how fearful you, and many others, are of being perceived as racist or Islamophobic or whatever just for taking a stand against immoral conduct or governance.

Moreover, I cited the US Constitution simply to rebut your implied charge that my "opinion" on the right of freedom of speech was uninformed or illogical.

p.s. To the extent it is relevant that AU has or doesn't have freedom of speech I do believe Australia's constitution as been interpreted as containing an implied freedom of speech clearly with respect to comments about government and pretty much across the board ( some ill conceived hate speech laws notwithstanding).

 

http://books.google.com.ar/books/about/Freedom_of_Speech_in_Australian_Law.html?id=immbAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

 

http://books.google.com.ar/books?id=dLuKIO_H8iQC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=freedom+of+speech+in+australian+law+a+delicate+plant&source=bl&ots=SvjPfiGGIL&sig=vYAwP_kFJScJcHaeG-8MsLvzAQk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=913IUv77MbawsASgyYCADg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=freedom%20of%20speech%20in%20australian%20law%20a%20delicate%20plant&f=false (see esp ftnote 95).

Edited January 4, 2014 by pmacher61

[Jacs]

I inferred you were arrogant by continuously mentioning the US laws and constitution as an argument against the laws and customs of an entirely different country. Questioning the morals and ethics or rights and wrongs of other cultures can be noble, assuming they should be the same as you based on your own beliefs is arrogant.

 

And that is why I said we don't have a freedom of speech law "per se". We may have an inferred one when questioned in a court case but we don't have a written in stone constitution like the US does, and as a result most Australians don't believe they can walk around saying whatever they like and be protected by "freedom of speech".

[pmacher61]

I inferred you were arrogant by continuously mentioning the US laws and constitution as an argument against the laws and customs of an entirely different country. Questioning the morals and ethics or rights and wrongs of other cultures can be noble, assuming they should be the same as you based on your own beliefs is arrogant.

Let me see if I now understand your thinking...questioning the mores and ethics of some societies can be noble, but assuming they should be the same as "mine" is arrogant.

Firstly, I didn't assume anything. I stated that I am not an ethical relativist. Accordingly, I believe certain social mores are good and certain mores are bad. I believe freedom of speech, freedom to criticize an idea or one's government is good. I believe incarcerating citizens/visitors for such expression is bad. I like the freedoms enumerated in the US constitution as well as those implied in the AU constitution. I don't like stoning to death adulterers, executing blasphemers, jailing critics of government or society. No assumptions.

Moreover, as you can tell, I think it is one's duty to try to act ethically and to be a force in getting others to do so, too. I am passionate about that when I see injustice and oppression. Among other things, it's the rent we have to pay for occupying this world.

 

And that is why I said we don't have a freedom of speech law "per se". We may have an inferred one when questioned in a court case but we don't have a written in stone constitution like the US does, and as a result most Australians don't believe they can walk around saying whatever they like and be protected by "freedom of speech".

..."may have an inferred one", huh? Not ready to stop arguing?

I lived in Sydney for about a year, 10 years ago. I thought it was an open and free society. If the freedom of expression arises because judges have extracted it from the constitution by implication, it makes little difference than if it were explicit as in the US constitution. The result is the same.

 

Now, of course, I don't know exactly where you walk around, but I believe most Australians ( certainly the ones I met and knew near Government House in Kiribilli)) never felt at all shy about criticizing the Prime Minister or anyone else in government...unlike the more repressed souls who reside in UAE.

Edited January 5, 2014 by pmacher61

[greatam]

FORCING our mores, constitution, etc on another country is called NATION BUILDING. And the USA FAILS at it every time they try. We just about get there and then we quit.

 

I have spent a good part of the last 8 years in and out of the Middle East working as a logistics contractor for the US military. We were making pretty good progress in Iraq, turning it into a democracy with rights for women and most of Sharia law not in effect anymore (it never really was in Iraq-the Saddam Hussein government HATED the Wahabbi form of Islam although he used it for political cover and was basically a secular government). The new shopping mall in Baghdad was an eye opener the first time I saw it in 2007. The amount of mini skirts, high heels and couples holding hands was astounding. And now look where we are in Iraq. I truly believe Iraq will become another Saudi pretty soon. Maybe even another Taliban Afghanistan.

 

We did the same thing in Vietnam oh so many years ago. After Tet and Khe Sahn, we were winning and could have pretty well wiped out both the VietCong and North Vietnamese Army but those in the US didn't like the "look of war" and the media kept fanning the flames of the "unjust war". We had won the hearts and minds of the people of South Vietnam. Then we left and we left ten of 1000's of Vietnamese to be be slaughtered or subjugated into "re-education" camps.

 

The US public does not have the stomach for a long, drawn out war any place in the world. So the political forces control the military forces and we end up generally with something WORSE than where we started. So preaching about other countries culture, prohibitions and punishments does absolutely no good unless the US is going to finish their business to change countries and wipe out injustices. And that hasn't happened since WWII when the US actually had some backbone.

[pmacher61]

The US public does not have the stomach for a long, drawn out war any place in the world. So the political forces control the military forces and we end up generally with something WORSE than where we started. So preaching about other countries culture, prohibitions and punishments does absolutely no good unless the US is going to finish their business to change countries and wipe out injustices. And that hasn't happened since WWII when the US actually had some backbone.

 

You fail to distinguish between (1) pointing out the unjust mores of a foreign place and (2) dropping bombs to nation build. That's a rather significant distinction you utterly fail to grasp.

 

Moreover, your take on the Vietnam war is revealing. "Finish business"...you have to be kidding. "We have to destroy the village to save it" - is that it?

[greatam]

You fail to distinguish between (1) pointing out the unjust mores of a foreign place and (2) dropping bombs to nation build. That's a rather significant distinction you utterly fail to grasp.

 

You can pout and whine all you want about unjust mores in foreign places. That's what almost all US Secretaries of State have done for the past 40 years. Has anything changed? Not much and most places, it has gotten worse and worse. We now have a North Korean dictator that fed his uncle to hungry dogs as a form of execution. And we have spent a good portion of the last 20 years whining and pouting about North Korea and giving them money so they could feed their people and listening to their "promises" to change. It is now worse and we have more of a whacko than his father. Why bother?

 

Moreover, your take on the Vietnam war is revealing. "Finish business"...you have to be kidding. "We have to destroy the village to save it" - is that it?

 

That is correct. If you go to war, then go to war to win, take territory and then return it to those who helped us/whom we were defending or believe in our way of life (isn't that what you want?). And hope like heck we stayed long enough to see it through and do some REAL good.

[pmacher61]

Why bother?

 

That is correct. If you go to war, then go to war to win, take territory and then return it to those who helped us/whom we were defending or believe in our way of life (isn't that what you want?). And hope like heck we stayed long enough to see it through and do some REAL good.

 

Again, you fail to appreciate that the original post was to advise cruisers so that they would not be lulled into thinking they could exercise freedom of expression in the UAE. If your "why bother" is reference to that, the answer is simple - because this is Cruisecritic where cruisers get advice about cruising.

If the "why bother" is in reference to why initiate a war to bring about regime change and then not pursue that war, then the answer is: We shouldn't have begun the aggression in the first place so stopping it is the right thing. Better late than never.

You have misunderstood my words. I never said we should start a war to enforce our mores. My country, right or wrong is an obviously ludicrous philosophy, just as the US incursion in Vietnam was a tragic error and against the desire of the overwhelming majority of Vietnamese. Has your association with the military caused you to maintain otherwise? I didn't think that mentality survived.

p.s. I'm boarding the Infinity for 28 nights so will not be replying to your subsequent posts although chances are I wouldn't bother in any case.

Edited January 6, 2014 by pmacher61

[AmoMondo]

I agree to a point with the OP. UAE certainly doesn't enjoy the freedom of expression that you would in Western democracies.

 

That said, how many of us feel the need to be openly criticising a regime when we are on a 7 hour port stay? I was concerned that I might cause offence and/or get myself in a legal mess inadvertently prior to my first visit to UAE. Those fears were completely unfounded. I really enjoy visiting the UAE and Dubai in particular. As a solo female traveller it is one of the safest places I've been and I've travelled extensively. No one hassles you. No one attempts to rip you off. Everything is very civilised and safe (from both a security and dentist ion point of view). I certainly don't miss drunken louts and displays of public indecency. I can walk around practically at any time of day or night without worrying that I will have issues. It is certainly far safer than many places in the US or Europe. Servoce in hotels and restaurants is good and they treat you very courteously.

 

You most certainly don't want to be caught drinking and driving, or falling about the place drunk as a skunk annoying people around you. Having drugs is a huge No No and public indents also to be avoided. Displays of public intimacy are not as bad as it is portrayed. Walking hand in hand is fine as is a kiss on the cheek. Getting more intimate in public, not ok.

 

No I don't agree with their stance on homosexuality or freedom of expression. I'm aware that in some places I need to dress conservatively (as I would visiting a mosque in Turkey or a cathedral in Rome). Might be a tad hypocritical to visit a country where you don't agree with their policies and practices but if I boycotted every where on that basis, I would not travel many places.

 

Travellers to the UAE need to understand difference from home but I don't think they need to be unduly concerned either. Now Saudi Arabia or Iran is an entirely different matter. I am looking forward to my 4th visit in a few weeks and will no doubt continue to travel their both for a winter holiday and as a stopover enroute to India for business.

Edited January 7, 2014 by AmoMondo