Seabourn calling at Brunei with its new Sharia laws

[markham]

I am wondering what everyone thinks of Seabourn ships calling at Brunei now that they have established Sharia law for themselves and everyone who visits there.

 

Seabourn Sojourn calls there on 11 March, 2015 and I will be on board. There are international calls to avoid hotels elsewhere such as London belonging to the regime. I intend to respect that call- here and there.

 

Whether you are on this sailing, or possibly another sailing going to a country with Sharia law such as Brunei now has, it would be interesting to hear your views.

 

One possibility, of course, is that Seabourn substitute this port for another, with a regime of a more tolerant nature.

 

Happy sailing!

Edited June 26, 2014 by markham

[Keith1010]

Cruising to places that are different from our very own are part of discovery.

 

One of the most interesting cruises we ever took involved 24 days in the Middle East with stops in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait City, Brunei and several other places. No different than anywhere we sail we have to follow the local laws. And yes, in some of these places women were required to wear certain clothes and there were several rules we had to follow. In our own country there are rules that we have to follow and when we visit certain places around the world there are rules that are required (what clothing you wear in churches in Italy).

 

There were some who didn't book the cruise we were on for a wide range of reasons (didn't want to add revenue to some of these places or disagreed with the regime or the way they control their people) but we were glad to have seen these places through our own eyes.

 

For many of us it changed our views about the people and the country.

 

And there is always the option to stay on the ship.

 

I am glad that we have choices when it come to places we visit and would encourage people to take the opportunity to see these places through their own eyes.

 

Keith

[frantic36]

My first reaction was that we should be tolerant of other regimes but after reading further and seeing the three different levels being introduced over time and the severity of punishment..........well not keen now at all.

 

We were to be on this cruise but have have moved to the Jan/Feb cruise. If we were still on the cruise in principle my DH and I would stay on the ship instead. Unfortunately for Seabourn this has been introduced after the itinerary was locked in.

 

Looking forward to catching up on the SIN - SIN leg markham.....hope all is well with you both :).

 

Julie

[Mr Luxury]

I am wondering what everyone thinks of Seabourn ships calling at Brunei now that they have established Sharia law for themselves and everyone who visits there.

 

Seabourn Sojourn calls there on 11 March, 2015 and I will be on board. There are international calls to avoid hotels elsewhere such as London belonging to the regime. I intend to respect that call- here and there.

 

Whether you are on this sailing, or possibly another sailing going to a country with Sharia law such as Brunei now has, it would be interesting to hear your views.

 

One possibility, of course, is that Seabourn substitute this port for another, with a regime of a more tolerant nature.

 

 

Happy sailing!

 

What does the FCO advise on this matter.

[wripro]

We called in Brunei on the Odyssey world cruise several years ago and I got off the ship to do a couple of tours. Today I wouldn't get off, spend one red cent there. I'm aware this doesn't make one lick of difference to the Sultan but it does to me. Perhaps if enough people don't buy excursions there Seabourn will eliminate their stops there.

[Grumpy Wombat]

If you wish to boycott particular places in order to make a political or religious "statement" that's up to you. I can assure you it will make no difference to the regime in question. Brunei has a fascinating history and culture and those are my criteria for a brief visit anywhere and I think it's only a matter of courtesy to respect local customs when it comes to how we dress and comport ourselves.

 

But if your conscience really does trouble you then stay on board, it's not exactly a hardship!

[Phil0505]

I’d hardly think that respecting local customs should extend to turning a blind eye to being sentenced to death due to your sexual orientation.

[mrscrab]

We were on a S/S cruise of the South China Sea which called into Brunei - it was one of the most wonderful tours we had ever been on. At the invitation of the Sultan we were taken first of all to his magnificent golf club. Everyone was given a golf buggy to drive around the course - the gardens and fountains within the course were spectacular then we were given access to the club house. Everything was palatial and walls and furniture had real gold everywhere.

Next we were taken to the POLO Club and we were given food and drink (no alcohol) and this building even had real gold woven in the carpet. The polo horses stables were certainly 5 star. On the way back to the ship we were taken to a very very upmarket hotel for a look around. Again everything was fantastic but no bar!

 

The Sultan of Brunei is much loved by the residents. They pay no income tax, free hospitals and education and many drive around in late model Mercedes or the like.

 

The shopping wasn't very good, they cater mainly for the locals who seem very happy with their lot. Yes a lovely port of call and the whole of the island Islamic but no sign of tension whatsoever

[Ravenscroft]

We were on a S/S cruise of the South China Sea which called into Brunei - it was one of the most wonderful tours we had ever been on. At the invitation of the Sultan we were taken first of all to his magnificent golf club. Everyone was given a golf buggy to drive around the course - the gardens and fountains within the course were spectacular then we were given access to the club house. Everything was palatial and walls and furniture had real gold everywhere.

Next we were taken to the POLO Club and we were given food and drink (no alcohol) and this building even had real gold woven in the carpet. The polo horses stables were certainly 5 star. On the way back to the ship we were taken to a very very upmarket hotel for a look around. Again everything was fantastic but no bar!

 

The Sultan of Brunei is much loved by the residents. They pay no income tax, free hospitals and education and many drive around in late model Mercedes or the like.

 

The shopping wasn't very good, they cater mainly for the locals who seem very happy with their lot. Yes a lovely port of call and the whole of the island Islamic but no sign of tension whatsoever

 

All of which, for me, makes it even more disturbing that they have only recently changed to severe criminal punishments as found in Sharia law.

I believe these punishment levels were only implemented in April this year.

[frantic36]

All of which, for me, makes it even more disturbing that they have only recently changed to severe criminal punishments as found in Sharia law.

I believe these punishment levels were only implemented in April this year.

 

Exactly! I was keen to visit Brunei as I knew it had an interesting history and I like to find out about new places. But it is concerning why he should decide to go this path after having such a calm and benign rule. After I read through various reports I am perplexed as to why bring in such harsh laws and how will it affect non locals?

[Flamin_June]

Sometimes one has to stand up and be counted for what one believes is right.

 

With the benefit of hindsight, transpose the original post to say, 1937, and relocate the question to a voyage calling in Germany. Or 1973 and Chile. Or 1980 and Salvador

 

Irrespective of how many gold toilet seats the Sultan may have, or whether one should be open to and accepting of the different 'rules' that operate in other areas of the world as part of life's rich tapestry, can you really turn a blind eye to a regime that sanctions stoning to death, flogging and amputation ?

 

Then there are the issues of Women's rights.... religious freedom.... and as previously mentioned, sexual orientation.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Flamin_June

[Flamin_June]

Exactly! I was keen to visit Brunei as I knew it had an interesting history and I like to find out about new places. But it is concerning why he should decide to go this path after having such a calm and benign rule. After I read through various reports I am perplexed as to why bring in such harsh laws and how will it affect non locals?

 

I think you will find that the Sultan has been less than benign as far as the indigenous tribal people are concerned

[frantic36]

I think you will find that the Sultan has been less than benign as far as the indigenous tribal people are concerned

 

Interesting comment...........it looks like I have to do some deeper and more diverse reading. Thank you for the insight.

[Flamin_June]

suggested reading:

 

www.academia.edu/343009/The_deculturation_of_the_Brunei_Dusun

 

If you follow the link, you don't have to download the pdf if you don't want to. Just close the pop-up screen and you can read a p/copy version

Edited June 27, 2014 by Flamin_June

[Host Dan]

suggested reading:

 

www.academia.edu/343009/The_deculturation_of_the_Brunei_Dusun

 

If you follow the link, you don't have to download the pdf if you don't want to. Just close the pop-up screen and you can read a p/copy version

Bad link

[Flamin_June]

Thanks Dan, spotted that. I have fixed the link in the op now

Edited June 27, 2014 by Flamin_June

[Host Dan]

Thanks Dan, spotted that. I have fixed the link in the op now

Thanks for the fix!

[wripro]

If you wish to boycott particular places in order to make a political or religious "statement" that's up to you. I can assure you it will make no difference to the regime in question. Brunei has a fascinating history and culture and those are my criteria for a brief visit anywhere and I think it's only a matter of courtesy to respect local customs when it comes to how we dress and comport ourselves.

 

But if your conscience really does trouble you then stay on board, it's not exactly a hardship!

 

That is exactly what I said. I would stay aboard because it matters to me. Just as I will avoid any of the hotels inn the Dorchester Collection much as I like some of them.

[ajpeter]

Such a shame we didn't book this cruise.

They could have showed us the palace, have tea with the sultan, see the polo club and the horses and at the end of the day they wil stone my husband and me to death. Such a lovely rich country with no taxes to be payed. Why didn't I think of going there before....

Peter

[ajpeter]

Massage to MrsCrab,

 

This makes me all very tense, no matter how much gold there is!

[Keith1010]

As I posted earlier I don't have a problem with Brunei being on an itinerary because to me travel is about discovery. In the end, each person will decide whether it is a big enough deal that they won't sail the itinerary or as Henry said earlier just stay on the ship.

 

I am not sure though how anyone from a one day visit can know what the people think of the Sultan. Because the reality is that during the course of one day we are just not going to interact with many people.

 

Speaking of which I went back to my Blog and also to my notes from our last visit to Brunei and two items stuck out. One was that we had very little interaction with the locals and I felt that was intentionally orchestrated. By the way we had the same experience in Saudi Arabia being fairly isolated. My other observation was that the tour guide was filing us with Propaganda about how wonderful everything was there. In fact, he made the comment that Women are treated as 100% equals with the Men. Even in our own country I couldn't make a statement like that because we are not yet there.

 

Anyway, for me travel is discovery and in the end we each will come to our own conclusion as to whether we would want to visit Brunei or for that matter any country around the world.

 

Keith

[freddie]

When my partner & I visited Saudi Arabia on a day excursion from Silver Whisper a few years ago, we had serious concerns regarding risks for two gay men in a country that did not tolerate gays. We felt reasonably secure as part of an organized tour but did not kid ourselves that we were seeing anything remotely like the normal life of the country.

 

If we were to visit Saudi Arabia today, we would likely not leave the ship. One's sensibilities evolve. Lordie, 40 years ago, we went to bull fights in Madrid and Nimes, something that we would not even consider now.

 

Like Henry, if we were on a cruise which included a stop in Brunei, we would stay on the ship. Travel may be about discovery; but participating in any respect in a society that so strongly oppresses (to the death) minorities, women, and gays would not be discovery. It would be, to us, repugnant. Seeing gold plumbing fixtures?? How about a tour that included the stoning of a woman who defied her husband's attempts to rape her?

 

In general, I am not at all a proponent of political discussion on the CC boards. However, this subject is not a trivial one. I would suggest that SB might be well advised to remove stops in Brunei from its itineraries.

[mrscrab]

The S/S cruise was the only part of my several visits to Brunei - the airline Royal Brunei had flights to the UK via Brunei from Perth Western Australia. I had many overnight stops and only saw happy people who certainly enjoyed the life style. The Islamic "being" meant that most of the people kept to their religion . I cannot think how life would change as they appeared to be living the "perfect" lifestyle according to the Koran.

 

I agree with several on this board - WE TRAVEL to see parts of this wonderful world and I wouldn't let a call into Brunei affect my cruise. If you are so upset by this probable 8 hour visit - look at another cruise or stay on board.

 

I add a comment that people overseas may not know that HRH Prince Charles is a close friend of the Sultan of Brunei. So would the "Palace" with all the information they hold allow this friendship to happen. Protocol is of the essence.

[Keith1010]

When my partner & I visited Saudi Arabia on a day excursion from Silver Whisper a few years ago, we had serious concerns regarding risks for two gay men in a country that did not tolerate gays. We felt reasonably secure as part of an organized tour but did not kid ourselves that we were seeing anything remotely like the normal life of the country.

 

If we were to visit Saudi Arabia today, we would likely not leave the ship. One's sensibilities evolve. Lordie, 40 years ago, we went to bull fights in Madrid and Nimes, something that we would not even consider now.

 

Like Henry, if we were on a cruise which included a stop in Brunei, we would stay on the ship. Travel may be about discovery; but participating in any respect in a society that so strongly oppresses (to the death) minorities, women, and gays would not be discovery. It would be, to us, repugnant. Seeing gold plumbing fixtures?? How about a tour that included the stoning of a woman who defied her husband's attempts to rape her?

 

In general, I am not at all a proponent of political discussion on the CC boards. However, this subject is not a trivial one. I would suggest that SB might be well advised to remove stops in Brunei from its itineraries.

 

On our visit to Saudi Arabia we found that this one was the most controlled visit we had. We were visiting on another cruise line and were the first cruise line to visit at the time.

 

Saudi Arabia required that we could only visit if we took a shore excursion. Even Iran allowed us to go it on our own.

 

The tour guides worked for the government. Propaganda? Yes.

 

Women had to wear clothes that were given out to each of them a few days prior to the visit.

 

We had about 30 minutes on our own at a Suk but none of the locals spoke English there so we couldn't engage in any conversation.

 

The women had to go through special security on our return to the pier and were patted down from head to toe.

 

But it was discovery for us in so many ways and for me that is what travel is all about. I had several take aways that I would not have had if I didn't visit there.

 

I am reminded of some terrible things that have taken place in the world by Russia and China yet people still visit Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing and St. Petersburg, etc. and we buy the goods that come from some places. I guess it works the other way around too. We do some things that others outside our own country may not agree with but we have visitors come here.

 

Like most things its a personal choice. We don't have to sail the itinerary or we can stay on the ship. When we visited Iran some people refused to get off the ship. That visit also we very good for me as it reenforced several views I had and interestingly enough the tour guide was very blunt even though we had a couple of security people from the local government on the bus.

 

Back to Saudi Arabia. Personally, I walked away with a terrible view of the country. Yes, I know I should not judge a country by a one day visit but I have. :) I realized how we use them and they use us. As to safety, I felt very safe. If still treats many of its people terribly though. Would I return if it was on an itinerary? For me, yes because there is more discovery that I would like to do.

 

I am glad we have the choice when it comes to our travel and yes I am glad that we live in a place where we can express our views. And I certainly respect those who have differing views on this than I do such as your thoughts on this. I suspect Seabourn would only remove this if the itinerary is not selling because of this stop or if there is a safety issue for the crew and the guests or if there is a significant change in world events.

 

Keith

Edited June 28, 2014 by Keith1010

[secoma4]

I have watched the responses to this topic and debated whether a contribution is appropriate. In the end I have decided to respond to, like some others, put some balance into the matter.

 

We have travelled to many places around the world, including those others sight as controlled by regimes which may not be comparable to those in which they live. The reality of tourism, particularly when conducted by companies like Seabourn, is that they are not going to take risks which have the potential to affect them or their clients.

 

I have also had experiences in countries that are totally at odds with what would be regarded as "safe" in our own country. These include being in the Arrivals Hall at Heathrow when it was hit by a mortar from the IRA then passing tanks as we exited the airport. Being escorted on our Israel tour by a guide clearly providing a one-sided view of the country and its neighbours. Traveling in USA where the carrying of arms by civilians is commonplace. Being escourted on our tour in Egypt by armed guards and accompanied by back-up buses. Or traveling by road in India where the rules of the road are there as a rough guide only.

 

Some of these are factors that are largely unrelated to the prevailing government - but they are all reflective of the underlying society and the experience that is to be gained. If where we travelled was to be dictated by our views of the relevant government/regime - views formed based on the views or experiences of others - then we wouldn't experience the countries (including cultures, scenery, living standards etc) that make us want to travel.