Ten Years From Now...... HAL

[navybankerteacher]

Anyone who calls HAL a premium line is living in the past. Those days are long gone. The competition passed HAL by a few years ago.

 

I can understand why HAL loyalists-especially those who never or seldom cruise on a competing line disagree with this. Or those who have not been on a competing line in the last several years. The pace of change is rapid and some of the current competing market offerings are stellar.

 

Keep in mind that the cruise market is not simply a cruise market..it is a leisure market. There are lots of choices out there. Cruising is only one of them. We are doing land in Sept/Oct. We may do a Med cruise at the same time now that a Black Sea cruise is no longer attractive to us. And then perhaps not. There are lots and lots of competing options for us-especially as the time draws closer.

 

HAL is not a "premium" line - nor has it been for many years. What it IS, is a mass-market line which is different from the others. A lot of whining posts on this thread seem to ignore the tack HAL is taking which sets it apart from the others: their new-build Pinnacle class is the new "small" - Princess and Celebrity new builds are in the 3,000 plus range, while Carnival, RCI and NCL are building far larger. This will leave HAL alone in its niche. Sure, they have let service lapse somewhat, hopefully they will address that slide - which approach will become more feasible once the differences between them and the competition emerge in the minds of the market. At this stage, they are having a very tough time competing with the other mass market lines, whose larger, more efficient ships accommodate cut rate fares. But as the other lines retire their less-than 2,000 pax ships and replace them with 3,500 and up behemoths, HAL will be able to charge the higher fares necessary to provide for those services whose absence is being so loudly bemoaned on this thread..

[CowPrincess]

I don't think HAL as a mainstream cruise line will exist in 10 years. CCL may keep a couple of ships sailing as HAL, more along the lines of Voyages of Discovery -- off the beaten path itineraries with few available sailings.

[sail7seas]

Perhaps they are creating some of this negative thinking and expectation by remaining silent as to what their new Pinnacle Ship will offer. Instead of boasting and generating excitement and anticipation they leave us to picture whatever our imagination produces. If we were being showered with exciting expectation, this thread could be entirely more positive.

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by sail7seas

[frankc98376]

As many have said it is quite apparent that HAL is trying to find their "niche".

 

After reading many, many posts on CC I feel that HAL really needs to tale a good look at their Seattle office and Guest Services. I couldn't count how many people get pretty much the same mass produced letter from the mysterious "Christine Ferris" in reply to any concern or suggestion they send to Seattle.

 

Some may remember that we got married aboard HAL in 2013. Our wedding was one of those that pretty much everything except lunch was not what we had paid for or were promised. We went through the wringer trying to get anywhere with Guest Services. We spent months hoping to not get another "canned" response. I'm pretty confident that if our wedding had been on Crystal or even Seabourn and had that many issues the initial response would have been very different. Very likely it would have all been settled before we left the ship.

 

If HAL wants to indeed be looked at as a higher end product they really need to take a long hard look at customer service. "Canned" responses from the "Office of the President" are fine if you are a company like Walmart.

 

I remember the posts during the infamous A/C and plumbing issues talking about basically being blown off on board and being told that 88 degrees in a stateroom is normal.

 

Sadly a lot of great companies have fallen to the wayside because they forgot the value of their customers and had the attitude "you're lucky we are letting you do business with us".

Edited August 8, 2014 by frankc98376

[navybankerteacher]

Perhaps they are creating some of this negative thinking and expectation by remaining silent as to what their new Pinnacle Ship will offer. Instead of boasting and generating excitement and anticipation they leave us to picture whatever our imagination produces. If we were being showered with exciting expectation, this thread could be entirely more positive.

 

 

I think you are right - it is hard to see why they are not talking up their new class of ship. Being realistic, one has to assume that (on all lines) service will continue to be downgraded as a cost-cutting method unless revenues are grown (fare increases). Being an optimist, I am inclined to think that HAL is on the right path - with their focus on smaller ships, they MUST be contemplating fare adjustments which will price them away from the mega-ship lines.

 

I, of course, do not relish fare increases - but will happily accept them as long as they purchase an experience not available on other lines ---- without being over the top. Even as I recognize, and regret, recent cuts in service, I still see HAL as preferable to the alternatives in my price range.

[rkacruiser]

I think you are right - it is hard to see why they are not talking up their new class of ship. Being realistic, one has to assume that (on all lines) service will continue to be downgraded as a cost-cutting method unless revenues are grown (fare increases). Being an optimist, I am inclined to think that HAL is on the right path - with their focus on smaller ships, they MUST be contemplating fare adjustments which will price them away from the mega-ship lines.

 

I, of course, do not relish fare increases - but will happily accept them as long as they purchase an experience not available on other lines ---- without being over the top. Even as I recognize, and regret, recent cuts in service, I still see HAL as preferable to the alternatives in my price range.

 

I do agree with your thinking. I cannot imagine a company that has been as successful as Carnival Corporation putting more money into a newbuild without having clearly identified the guest identity path that they want to solicit.

 

My hope the new ship will be less than the very modern decor of the Solstice-Class vessels, but an updated version of HAL's traditional decor. And, provide some of the unique amenities available on Celebrity's newest vessels.

 

But, as I have stated before on this thread and others: something MUST be done on itinerary improvements, at least in the Caribbean. I chose Celebrity Eclipse a couple of years ago because it was a longer cruise and it visited a variety of ports including St. Croix where I last visited in 1988.

[Typhoon1]

Will HAL still be operating in ten years?

 

How many of us will be alive ten years from now?

[navybankerteacher]

Will HAL still be operating in ten years?

 

How many of us will be alive ten years from now?

 

Yes, and I hope so.

[serendipity1499]

Will HAL still be operating in ten years?

 

How many of us will be alive ten years from now?

 

 

 

Well I expect to be alive 10 years from now, & still be able to cruise on HAL or Oceania my two favorite lines..

 

We love the fact they have longer cruises & go to ports where the larger ships can't go..

 

I hope HAL continues to do those type of cruises..

[Fouremco]

If the new online booking system is any indication of the direction HAL is taking, it's clear that they have no idea what customers new and old are looking for. In ten years, people will be saying "Oh yes, I remember HAL. Whatever happened to it?"

[iancal]

dup

Edited August 9, 2014 by iancal

[iancal]

We hope to be around in ten years!

 

But as two people who like to cruise on many lines we find ourselves not considering HAL nearly as often as we did five years ago.

 

A HAL cruise was usually one of either two or three on our short list. Not so any more. Partly because of the competition, partly because HAL is not 'ticking' near as many boxes for us any more. It is too bad really. And we are two people, retired early, children launched, with what I suspect is a larger than average travel budget. We just do not feel that HAL really wants our business since they do so little to attract it or keep it.

Edited August 9, 2014 by iancal

[sammiedawg]

I have the impression that the parent Carnival corporation has devalued the brand significantly. Too many boring old ships, declining food and service. Simultaneously Princess has taken their brand forward in quality, albeit on larger new ships. Carnival corporation loves Princess in the same way Proctor and Gamble loves Tide, continually investing in the brand.

I think Holland America will be downsized in the next decade and will sail half a dozen ships, mass market level.

Edited August 9, 2014 by sammiedawg

[cruz chic]

We hope to be around in ten years!

 

But as two people who like to cruise on many lines we find ourselves not considering HAL nearly as often as we did five years ago.

 

A HAL cruise was usually one of either two or three on our short list. Not so any more. Partly because of the competition, partly because HAL is not 'ticking' near as many boxes for us any more. It is too bad really. And we are two people, retired early, children launched, with what I suspect is a larger than average travel budget. We just do not feel that HAL really wants our business since they do so little to attract it or keep it.

 

I don't blame you. I'm feeling the same way. I'm getting tired of their archaic policies, failure to get their itineraries out and the lack of information on their new ship. What's the big secret?

[rkacruiser]

I have the impression that the parent Carnival corporation has devalued the brand significantly. Too many boring old ships, declining food and service. Simultaneously Princess has taken their brand forward in quality, albeit on larger new ships. Carnival corporation loves Princess in the same way Proctor and Gamble loves Tide, continually investing in the brand.

I think Holland America will be downsized in the next decade and will sail half a dozen ships, mass market level.

 

Your comment that "Carnival Corporation loves Princess..." unfortunately for HAL may be an "internal" fact that we outside of the Company do not know. Mr. Arison worked very hard and maybe paid a premium in his battle on behalf of CCL to acquire Princess. My impression in listening on the Quarterly Conference Calls to the investment community is that Princess may be "the fair-haired child" of the Company.

 

The promotion of the Princess President to the Carnival Corporation position of COO does nothing to lessen my thinking of this. And, this promotion was done in light of very disappointing reviews of the new Royal Princess. This gentleman was up-front and center in the online videos of a Class of ships that has some guest-unfriendly shortcomings. His fingerprints should be on the decision making that led to the issues.

 

Mr. Kruse's advancement in the Company gives me cause for hope. I would have preferred his appointment as COO rather than the other gentleman. But, Mr. Donald, from the comments I have heard him make and that I have read, makes me feel that with much effort on the part of himself and his team in Miami and Seattle, HAL will continue to be a leader in the premium cruise market category.

 

Maybe the delay in discussing the newbuild is to make sure that this vessel, whatever her name maybe, will be the best Dam Ship the cruising public will ever have seen!

[sammiedawg]

Holland America and Princess are mass market lines. If someone thinks holland America is premium they need to get out more and try something different like Oceania.

[rkacruiser]

Holland America and Princess are mass market lines. If someone thinks holland America is premium they need to get out more and try something different like Oceania.

 

I have had friends who have sailed on some of their ships. Oceania is not all "peaches and cream" either.

[serendipity1499]

Holland America and Princess are mass market lines. If someone thinks holland America is premium they need to get out more and try something different like Oceania.

 

Agree that HAL is not a premium line, & consider Oceania to be a premium line... Loved both our cruises on Oceania, but the one drawback for us is; Oceania does not have a wrap around Promenade deck which we love!

 

However, IMO HAL is an excellent main stream line...Hope it will stay that way & continue to go to the smaller, out of the way ports, that most large ships can't get into..

Edited August 9, 2014 by serendipity1499

[cruisemom42]

Perhaps they are creating some of this negative thinking and expectation by remaining silent as to what their new Pinnacle Ship will offer. Instead of boasting and generating excitement and anticipation they leave us to picture whatever our imagination produces. If we were being showered with exciting expectation, this thread could be entirely more positive.

 

 

If Carnival Corp shares learnings between its various brands, then perhaps they learned a lesson from the Royal Princess debut last year -- the first ship in the new class for Princess.

 

There was so much information/conversation/promotion/speculation on CC before the ship launched that many people had already 'tried' the new ship in their mind and condemned her. And those negative opinions, I have no doubt, influenced others to be critical. I was actually booked on a holiday cruise on the new ship but after so much chatter, I was afraid to take a chance and changed to a Celebrity cruise.

 

I'm not sorry I did, but just wanted to make clear the potential effect of releasing information about a new build early and not being able to counter the "negative nellies" months before the ship is launched (and actual experience can be evaluated).

[Himself]

I totally agree with what you say, Both my husband and I have been saying for quite some time that that they have an identity complex and do not know what they want to be. ....Actually I think I know what they would like to be but doing that does not make them profitable. Bottom line they have to make money and the cost of doing business in the cruise travel industry is costing them more and more. Basically HAL has NOT kept up with the needs and wants of the younger cruisers who will be their bread and butter in 10 to 15 years when those passengers are retiring and have the money to travel. They are not even keeping up with what cruisers want right now in most cases. HAL will either need to decide what their niche is and stick with it till they fold or become a mass market cruise line bringing in the masses and and bring on some out of the box thinkers that will come up with creative ways to have passengers book cruises on HAL.

 

BUT the number one thing they need to do that other cruise lines are actually starting to concentrate on is the Luxury Experience with Exceptional Service and with plenty Crew members to attend to your needs. Unless they step up to the plate with this they may as well quit building ships now.

 

HAL has been owned by Carnival Corp for over 20 years. They have been gradually "Carnivalized" in that time.

[serendipity1499]

I have had friends who have sailed on some of their ships. Oceania is not all "peaches and cream" either.

 

Well we've sailed on Oceania twice & for us it was "Peaches & Cream"..

 

Oceania's service was impeccable & consistent.. IMO Oceania's crew both times were exceptional...

 

For example: A friend of ours never took a bun for breakfast from the "Bun Man" in the MDR.. One day the head stewardess asked him why & he said he could not have anything with sugar in it.. She said to him "From now on you will have buns made without sugar" From that day on, he had his buns sans sugar.. One day we decided to eat in the Buffet as we had an early tour & our Friend did not get his buns.. The next day the head stewardess asked him why he did not get his buns the day before.. He told her why & she said to him "If you ever eat in the Buffet again ask a steward to come down to the MDR to get your buns from me"... She was dead serious! I doubt that would ever happen on HAL.. BTW we all book only outside cabins not suites...This is just one example of their impeccable service..

 

Their alternative restaurants are included & have no extra charge..

 

The only drawback for us was the lack of the wrap around Promenade deck...

 

But you might try Oceania yourself & make your own decision about their service..

Edited August 9, 2014 by serendipity1499

[rkacruiser]

serendipity1499,

 

My impression comes from friends who have sailed on the previous R Class chips and on many levels, they were disappointed.

 

I keep an open mind about the newer vessels.

[navybankerteacher]

Holland America and Princess are mass market lines. If someone thinks holland America is premium they need to get out more and try something different like Oceania.

 

I do not think anyone on this thread has referred to HAL as a premium line - it is simply a mass market line which many find to be superior to other mass market lines - and hope that it maintains it's special character as a mass market line with its own flavor. Of course the experience on Oceania will be different - it surely should be since Oceania's fares run two to three times HAL's --- but discussing how much better Oceania is is simply irrelevant - this thread is about what people think HAL will be like in ten years.

[rkacruiser]

I do not think anyone on this thread has referred to HAL as a premium line - it is simply a mass market line which many find to be superior to other mass market lines - and hope that it maintains it's special character as a mass market line with its own flavor. Of course the experience on Oceania will be different - it surely should be since Oceania's fares run two to three times HAL's --- but discussing how much better Oceania is is simply irrelevant - this thread is about what people think HAL will be like in ten years.

 

Your comment makes me think that there needs to be a more precise definition as to what mass-market, premium, and super-premium cruise lines need to be.

 

The time maybe has arrived that we cannot lump a cruise line into one category. Think of MSC: Yacht Club. Think of Celebrity and Royal Caribbean: various classes of suite amenities. Even think of HAL: while many moan about the lack of Neptune Suite amenities in comparison to other lines, as a first time in a SC, it was a new and very pleasant cruise experience!

[POA1]

Your comment makes me think that there needs to be a more precise definition as to what mass-market, premium, and super-premium cruise lines need to be.

 

Grab a copy of the latest Frommer's cruise guide. Pick up a copy of Fodor's. Open the 2014 Rick Steves books. Next, open the CLIA's reports and look at the market segments.

 

Apparently they're all wrong.

 

Like many of you, I was shocked to discover this. I have been operating under the misconception that the segments were mainstream, premium, luxury, and specialty / adventure. I had read about the emerging "near luxury" segment that was a niche carved out by Azamara & Oceania, but that doesn't seem to line up with what I read here.