PVSA Violation?

[shanecindy21403]

I had booked a LA to Vancouver, then a Vancouver to Seattle then a 7 day Seattle round trip and was told 6 months later that was a violation because it's the same ship and 2 different US ports are involved. So I let them cancel everything.

 

Now here is my new idea we are going to fly into Seattle like 5 days early spend a few days there and then go up to Vancouver and spend like 2 days there. Board the ship for a Vancouver to Seattle 1 day repo, then book the 7 day round trip out of Seattle on the same ship. Would this be allowed or is this another violation?

 

Thanks! Cindy

Edited October 16, 2014 by shanecindy21403

[AKman2495]

I think you will be OK because you are going from Seattle to Seattle. The problem with the last trip was that, in effect you were going from LA to Seattle, which is not allowed unless you are on a U.S. flag carrier.

 

The second trip you are proposing is no different than going from LA to LA with a stop in Ensenada.

Edited October 16, 2014 by AKman2495

[skrodle]

i agree that you would be ok..

 

you are not doing a r/t as the 2nd poster stated, but travelling from Vancouver to Seattle.

 

the problem with your first trip was you were traveling between two US ports. here you are traveling between 1 international and 1 US.

 

Its the whole reason for the 1 day repo from Vancouver because they cannot repo it from LA to Seattle, so they have to put that break in there.

 

You should be good

[BillB48]

I would say your plan B is fine with PVSA. The cruise would be viewed as YVR-SEA, the fact you did a closed loop from SEA to SEA should not change the overall voyage.

[PunkiC]

Why not take the Ruby to Vancouver. Disembark and spend a couple of days in Vancouver, then take the Quick Shuttle down to Seattle, hang out there for a couple of days and then do the Alaska trip on the Ruby out of Seattle. Pretty much what you had originally planned, but with a ground trip in the middle instead of a cruise.

[Kinkacruiser]

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

[BillB48]

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

 

As long as the entire cruise is FLL to Alaska, I don't see anything against the PVSA

[thinfool]

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

 

Interesting. If Princess views this as a voyage from FLL to Alaska, then yes, you should be ok.

 

You will have satisfied the "distant foreign port" requirement on the FLL-LA leg of your journey.

[Pam in CA]

Now here is my new idea we are going to fly into Seattle like 5 days early spend a few days there and then go up to Vancouver and spend like 2 days there. Board the ship for a Vancouver to Seattle 1 day repo, then book the 7 day round trip out of Seattle on the same ship. Would this be allowed or is this another violation?

You are boarding in Seattle and eventually disembarking in Seattle on the same ship so you're fine. It's not a violation regardless of the itinerary or a B2B.

 

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

The Jones Act is an amendment to the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA). To answer your question, yes, the system will allow you to book an illegal itinerary. :( Hopefully, you have a good TA who will check and give you the correct information.

[Kartgv]

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

 

Unfortunately, yes, some Princess (and other cruise line) agents are not as well informed as they should be and do occasionally allow a violating B2B to be booked. In addition to this thread, there have been several other posts on these boards with the same problem. At some point closer to the cruise, someone at the cruise line catches the problem and notifies the passenger that their cruise is being cancelled. Disappointing to say the least!

 

Your cruise may NOT be OK. They may look at it as your actual transport being from FLL to Alaska, starting in one American port and ending in another. It's possible that the stop in Victoria makes it OK, but I'd get on the phone with Princess and ask to talk to a supervisor. If they assure you that it is OK, I'd ask for confirmation in writing.

Good luck!

[hawkeyetlse]

You are boarding in Seattle Vancouver and eventually disembarking in Seattle on the same ship so you're fine. It's not a violation regardless of the itinerary or a B2B.

Anything coming from outside the US or leaving the US is fine. The RT Seattle will also stop somewhere in Canada to avoid PVSA violations for everyone doing just that cruise.

Your cruise may NOT be OK. They may look at it as your actual transport being from FLL to Alaska, starting in one American port and ending in another. It's possible that the stop in Victoria makes it OK, but I'd get on the phone with Princess and ask to talk to a supervisor.

Victoria is not enough. To start in one US city and end in a different US city, the cruise has to stop somewhere outside North America. So it depends on the FLL to LA Panama Canal itinerary. There has to be a South American port (or somewhere in the ABC islands). Edited October 16, 2014 by hawkeyetlse

[shanecindy21403]

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

 

 

Yes they will let you book an illegal cruise. That's what happened to my first plan. I booked all 3 at the same time with the same agent at Princess nobody said a thing. Then about 6 months later after I had almost paid it off I get a phone call from Princess saying sorry can't do it. That's why this time I'm asking on here because a lot of the CC members are more knowledgeable than the Princess reps.

 

To everyone that answered my question THANKS! I'm going to go book it!

[BillB48]

 

Your cruise may NOT be OK. They may look at it as your actual transport being from FLL to Alaska, starting in one American port and ending in another. It's possible that the stop in Victoria makes it OK, but I'd get on the phone with Princess and ask to talk to a supervisor. If they assure you that it is OK, I'd ask for confirmation in writing.

Good luck!

 

Since their overall will be FLL to Alaska their ship will have satisfied the PVSA by stopping at one or more of the ABC Islands and possibly in South America (Cartagena). Any of those stops satisfy the requirements for a distant foreign port stop in order to carry passengers from one US port to another. The stop in Victoria is really not necessary for the PVSA since the LA to YVR ends in a foreign port. CBP will look at how the person in question actually cruise... in this case FLL to Alaska and the distant foreign port was called on. Just for discussion, another cruiser could not join the ship in LA and get off in Alaska, that would be a violation. That cruiser could however get on in LA and stay on until the ship returned Vancouver... by turning a B2B into a B2B2B (LA-YVR-AK-YVR) would make the cruise legal.

[ggprincess2004]

Unfortunately, yes, some Princess (and other cruise line) agents are not as well informed as they should be and do occasionally allow a violating B2B to be booked. In addition to this thread, there have been several other posts on these boards with the same problem. At some point closer to the cruise, someone at the cruise line catches the problem and notifies the passenger that their cruise is being cancelled. Disappointing to say the least!

 

Your cruise may NOT be OK. They may look at it as your actual transport being from FLL to Alaska, starting in one American port and ending in another. It's possible that the stop in Victoria makes it OK, but I'd get on the phone with Princess and ask to talk to a supervisor. If they assure you that it is OK, I'd ask for confirmation in writing.

Good luck!

 

You will be fine. You are going FLL to LA and will have a stop in Aruba, which qualifies as a distant foreign port under the PVSA. The rest of it is fine, since you will have been to a distant foreign port in the course of the voyage which originates in FLL and ends in Whittier. Actually, no problem due to Aruba.

[cherylandtk]

Would Princess allow you to book cruises if there was a violation to the PVSA (I assume this is about the Jones Act?)

We have a B2B2B cruise on the same ship next year. FLL - LA, LA - Vancouver (with a stop in Victoria), then Vancouver to Alaska.

I'd hate to be told we had to cancel. Does it look OK?

 

Kinka, your cruise on the Pacific Princess will be fine because you will make a stop in Curaçao and Cartagena between Fort Lauderdale and Anchorage. Both of those qualify as distant foreign ports.

[Wehwalt]

Yet I had an experience on the Ocean Princess with the FCC booking the LAX-YVR and then the YVR-AK portion and it showed up a PVSA violation based on those two parts (before the third part was booked). She couldn't figure out why. It eventually worked out, by booking them in non-consecutive order, (that is booking the first, the third, and then the second) but there's something in their software, at least the software the FCC people use.

[Kinkacruiser]

Kinka, your cruise on the Pacific Princess will be fine because you will make a stop in Curaçao and Cartagena between Fort Lauderdale and Anchorage. Both of those qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

Thanks for the reassurance, cherylandtk. Is this still the case even though the 3 cruises were booked separately? We booked them at the same time so we could have the same cabin on the Pacific Princess.

[Wehwalt]

Thanks for the reassurance, cherylandtk. Is this still the case even though the 3 cruises were booked separately? We booked them at the same time so we could have the same cabin on the Pacific Princess.

 

You are fine. If you get on in FLL, you stop in a far foreign port. It is irrelevant after that for PVSA compliance where you get off, whether LA, AK, or YVR. You're fine.

[AtlantaCruiser72]

The PVSA and Jones Act are two of the most commonly misunderstood regulations related to cruise passengers. The PVSA was enacted to protect US shipping companies transporting passengers from one US port to another. With the advent of modern air travel that passenger shipping transport effectively disappeared. Much in the same way that interstate highways and air travel destroyed the passenger rail services in the US. Both laws are outdated and I feel that US ports could strongly benefit from the repeal/amendment of the PVSA to allow for leisure cruise travelers.

 

The Jones Act, officially know as the Merchant Marine Act of 1920, is a law to protect primarily US cargo shipping interests and has many similarities to the PVSA. It does contain language pertaining to Cabotage that can also be applied to passenger transport, but the primary concern here is shipment of goods between US ports.

 

The PVSA covers transport of passengers by ship between two different US ports (cabotage). To do so a ship must either be flagged in th US or (if foreign flagged) make at least one stop in a "distant foreign port", usually South America or the ABC islands. In terms of the PVSA all the other Caribbean Islands and all of Central America from Panama North is considered part of North America and is not "distant". The PVSA also covers round trip passengers from the same originating/disembarking port in the US. The requirement here is visiting a non US port (for Seattle r/t Alaska cruises Victoria, California Coastal or Hawaii Ensenada/Kiribati, etc).

 

Doing a LAX-YVR-SEA cruise is a violation of the PVSA because none of the stops is outside North America and the passenger begins and ends their trip in US ports. Doing FLL-LAX-YVR is legal as the first leg complies with PVSA and the second leg ends in Canada. Doing YVR-SEA-SEA is legal because the first leg begins in a non US port and the second leg complies with the PVSA for ships departing/arriving at the same US port.

 

I know this was a bit long winded but hope it helps clarify why Princess has had to cancel your cruise. The booking software obviously does not check for PVSA violations and many front line agents may be unaware of what b2b cruises would cause conflict. There obviously is a regulatory person that checks for violations, sadly it took them a long time to inform you. I hope that if you had any ancillary cost (air change fees, etc) that Princess works with you. They are not obligated to do so, but it would be the right thing to do.

Edited October 16, 2014 by scottamiller

[hawkeyetlse]

Is this still the case even though the 3 cruises were booked separately?

Yes, you're still fine. After all, when they nail people for creating PVSA violations they do not accept the excuse that each individual segment is compliant and they were all booked separately… So they are also not allowed to split your trip up and say "Gotcha! This sub-portion of your itinerary is illegal!" All that matters is your complete itinerary as a passenger on that vessel.

[Kinkacruiser]

Thanks so much everyone. I'm here every day and it doesn't take much for me to launch off into a mild panic after reading a pertinent thread. Now I can relax :)

Thanks too to the OP for bringing this up.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Kinkacruiser

[cherylandtk]

Kinka, good to know panic is subsided. :). For PVSA purposes, it doesn't matter how the booking was done, whether there are segments (or not) or even what other passengers are doing in any given port. What matters is where you board the ship, where you depart, what ports the ship stops at in between those two events and whether you are on or off the ship when it next leaves an arrival port.

[Pam in CA]

Anything coming from outside the US or leaving the US is fine. The RT Seattle will also stop somewhere in Canada to avoid PVSA violations for everyone doing just that cruise.

Victoria is not enough. To start in one US city and end in a different US city, the cruise has to stop somewhere outside North America. So it depends on the FLL to LA Panama Canal itinerary. There has to be a South American port (or somewhere in the ABC islands).

I was referring to the OP boarding in Seattle for a 1-day cruise and then a 7-day cruise. They are not sailing to FLL.

[hawkeyetlse]

I was referring to the OP boarding in Seattle for a 1-day cruise and then a 7-day cruise. They are not sailing to FLL.

The OP (shanecindy21403) was thinking about boarding in Vancouver for a 1-day to Seattle, followed by a 7-day RT Seattle.

 

The second part of my message was in regard to Kinkacruiser's itinerary, not the OP's.

[OldSeaDog]

Princess publishes lists of voyages that cannot be linked. Any travel professional has easy access to those lists, and will probably happily print them out for you if you have any questions.

 

Randall

Edited October 16, 2014 by OldSeaDog