Can I avoid the Jones Act on my Alaska Cruise so my daughter can be in a wedding.

[FLANole]

I was of the same opinion, who is really going to care.

 

I have one at FSU and my Daughter just graduated at Alabama. Go Noles and Roll Tide!!

 

Thanks again for the opinion

[smeyer418]

PVSA also applies to non-U.S. airlines.

 

 

 

While the rule is similar its not in the PVSA.

 

BTW the PVSA requires that the ship(with some exceptions) be built and maintained in the US so US flagged airlines could not use Airbuses if it applied.

Edited January 22, 2015 by smeyer418

[sail7seas]

I don't think its a criminal statute at all, although lying to the CG or the Customs people IS and can get you a year in jail if they want to get you! I could see it now what are you in jail for! I got off in San Franciso on a cruise ship and didn't back on!

 

one of the strange things in the law under the PSVA is that it doesn't apply to crew that regular operate the ship so they can get on and off when and where they like but not ship line employees who work in the home office..it does apply to them.

 

 

When Noordam came to Boston from Fincantieri ship yard in Italy, she stopped in Boston for parties etc There were many home office cruise line officials and employees aboard and they sailed from Boston to NYC for the Naming/Christening. My late DH and I participated but because we were not cruise line employees, we flew from Boston to NY. Would all those employees, cruise line officials sailing from U.S. city to U.S. city be a violation?

 

 

 

 

While the rule is similar its not in the PVSA.

 

BTW the PVSA requires that the ship(with some exceptions) be built and maintained in the US so US flagged airlines could not use Airbuses if it applied.

 

Thank you.

 

Edited January 22, 2015 by sail7seas

[SadieN]

I havent read all of the responses, but I believe you could avoid the PVSA problem if you turn your trip around. Vancouver to Whittier. You would have to make arrangements with Princess and decide which port to use for your daughters departure.

 

Most of the AK cruise ports have service by Alaska Airlines. I think even Skagway uses nearby Haines for air service.

 

Good solution except that the original cruise works with the calendar restrictions of the others.

[cruiseryyc]

Rule #1 Don't mess with the police

 

Actually it's the US government you'll be messing with, don't really want to get on their radar!

[smeyer418]

When Noordam came to Boston from Fincantieri ship yard in Italy, she stopped in Boston for parties etc There were many home office cruise line officials and employees aboard and they sailed from Boston to NYC for the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who is a Passenger?

Generally, a passenger is any person carried on a vessel who isnot directly and substantially

connected with the operation of such

vessel, her navigation, ownership,

or business.

See

19 CFR § 4.50(b) and the

Modification and Revocation of Customs

Ruling Letters Relating to the Applicability

of Customs Position on Who is Considered a

Passenger Under the Coastwise Laws,

published in the

Customs Bulletin and

Decisions

 

see the decisions listed here at page 9-10

 

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

[Aquahound]

smeyer418, spot on correct. Thanks for your insight. :)

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

 

one of the strange things in the law under the PSVA is that it doesn't apply to crew that regular operate the ship so they can get on and off when and where they like but not ship line employees who work in the home office..it does apply to them.

 

Given this information, is it accurate to say the cruise line home office employees and officers of the company violated PVSA while the crew of the ship did not?

 

[Viv0828]

So what does the captain do if a person or family doesn't return to the ship from port?

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

[Shmoo here]

So what does the captain do if a person or family doesn't return to the ship from port?

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

 

If they never show up, the ship would depart without them. But all their belongings would still be onboard. Someone would have to claim them on debarkation day.

 

And, in this case, the $300 per person, while assessed against the ship/cruiseline, would most likely be passed on to the passengers via their onboard account.

[BlueRiband]

Whatever convoluted instances in the past may appear to be violations of the PVSA - yet they got away with it - are irrelevant to the OP's situation. The OP already asked Princess if they could do thus and so and the answer was no. While it's highly unlikely the cruise line would be banned from any ports Princess could put the entire party on their "do not sail" list.

 

While the intent might be sincere, I really think the young lady is being done a disservice by the attempts to find some convoluted way for her to get around this. At 23 she's an adult in every state of the Union and must make a decision. There are many rules in life that seem stupid and outdated but they are there and won't be bent for personal convenience.

[Cruisin' Chick]

I havent read all of the responses, but I believe you could avoid the PVSA problem if you turn your trip around. Vancouver to Whittier. You would have to make arrangements with Princess and decide which port to use for your daughters departure.

 

Most of the AK cruise ports have service by Alaska Airlines. I think even Skagway uses nearby Haines for air service.

 

I was wondering if perhaps the family can consider an earlier sailing date -- on a different ship, whether northbound or southbound. That way, the daughter can still fly to Atlanta and make the wedding...and not violate the PVSA. You're not within the final payment date so if you haven't booked your flights, wouldn't that work?

[Karysa]

Whatever convoluted instances in the past may appear to be violations of the PVSA - yet they got away with it - are irrelevant to the OP's situation. The OP already asked Princess if they could do thus and so and the answer was no. While it's highly unlikely the cruise line would be banned from any ports Princess could put the entire party on their "do not sail" list.

 

While the intent might be sincere, I really think the young lady is being done a disservice by the attempts to find some convoluted way for her to get around this. At 23 she's an adult in every state of the Union and must make a decision. There are many rules in life that seem stupid and outdated but they are there and won't be bent for personal convenience.

 

 

The mom said that they would not break the law. She said it's the wedding or the cruise. I have been given advice and information by the cruise line reps and I came on here, got the truth and phoned them back. They get it wrong so often that getting advice on here is wise. People were trying to help them out.

 

Life is short so if there was a way for my 23 year old to be with her family for the cruise and there for her friend on her wedding day then you bet that I would ask for a little help, advice and guidance from the folks at cc. Sometimes there are ways around issues without breaking the law. It's called creative thinking.:)

Edited January 23, 2015 by Karysa

[BlueRiband]

I was wondering if perhaps the family can consider an earlier sailing date -- on a different ship' date=' whether northbound or southbound. That way, the daughter can still fly to Atlanta and make the wedding...and not violate the PVSA. You're not within the final payment date so if you haven't booked your flights, wouldn't that work?[/quote']

 

The OP had already said that the date she picked was the only time everyone could go - until this came up.

 

..Life is short so if there was a way for my 23 year old to be with her family for the cruise and there for her friend on her wedding day then bet that I would ask for a little help, advice and guidance from the folks at cc. Sometimes there are ways around issues without breaking the law. It's called creative thinking.

 

Or "helicopter parenting".

Edited January 23, 2015 by BlueRiband

[AmazedByCruising]

Even if someone dies on a cruise ship and their body is removed before the foreign port in violation of the Jones Act, that person's estate would be fined $300.

 

So there are rules to protect passenger lines that don't even exist anymore, forbidding cruise lines to disembark dead passengers. And the captain can lose his license for allowing a dead body to be transferred to his funeral because the corpse did not visit a foreign port yet.

 

Of all amazing things I've seen on CC, this is a special one. And if this is really the case and I'm not misunderstanding, it's ugly.

[njhorseman]

Given this information, is it accurate to say the cruise line home office employees and officers of the company violated PVSA while the crew of the ship did not?

 

 

It's not as black and white as Sid suggests. There are instances when home office employees would not be violating the law because they're not considered passengers (The prohibitions of the PVSA only apply to passengers). An explanation of the criteria and examples are given in this CPB publication:

 

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

Look at page 10 of the CBP document for the explanation and examples. Here's one:

 

A Manager, Marine Hotel Operations traveling onboard to conduct an overall

operational review, including food and beverage service, entertainment,

housekeeping, and accounting is not a "passenger" within the meaning of 46

U.S.C. § 55103 and 19 C.F.R. § 4.50(b). HQ H067177, dated July

2, 2009

Edited January 23, 2015 by njhorseman

[Karysa]

The OP had already said that the date she picked was the only time everyone could go - until this came up.

 

 

 

Or "helicopter parenting".

 

I disagree. Trying to find solutions and teaching your children to use the resources that you have is far from being a helicopter parent but it is being a good parent. No matter what their age. My parents have wisdom and they share it with all of their kids and grand kids.

 

Wanting people to just suck things up is just plain grouchy!

Edited January 23, 2015 by Karysa

[njhorseman]

So there are rules to protect passenger lines that don't even exist anymore, forbidding cruise lines to disembark dead passengers. And the captain can lose his license for allowing a dead body to be transferred to his funeral because the corpse did not visit a foreign port yet.

 

Of all amazing things I've seen on CC, this is a special one. And if this is really the case and I'm not misunderstanding, it's ugly.

 

The captain isn't going to lose his license for disembarking a corpse or a sick passenger. The cruise line will be fined $300, which can be passed on to the passenger...but as was already explained...the fine can be appealed, and dispensation granted at the government's discretion.

 

There actually are some cruise lines that still exist and benefit from this rule. For example, NCL has the US-flagged Pride of America that solely cruises in the Hawaiian islands. American Cruise Lines offers small ship cruises on the coasts and also river cruises.

Edited January 23, 2015 by njhorseman

[Cruisin' Chick]

So there are rules to protect passenger lines that don't even exist anymore, forbidding cruise lines to disembark dead passengers. And the captain can lose his license for allowing a dead body to be transferred to his funeral because the corpse did not visit a foreign port yet.

 

Of all amazing things I've seen on CC, this is a special one. And if this is really the case and I'm not misunderstanding, it's ugly.

 

It's more complicated than that. But from what I understand, in cases such as death or a major injury/illness, the cruise line can ask for an exemption. But if someone is planning to leave the ship before the designated foreign port (the one that satisfies the PVSA), that is a major no-no. The cruise line is not allowed to assist passengers in doing this.

 

If a change of dates isn't in the works, then the daughter has a choice to make. She's an adult and can travel on her own. A close enough friend (at least to be asking her to be a bridesmaid) may only get married once (hopefully). Most likely there's other opportunities for a cruise.

[SnowshoeCat]

Given this information, is it accurate to say the cruise line home office employees and officers of the company violated PVSA while the crew of the ship did not?

 

 

Just speculating, but if they didn't pay passage (i.e."non-revenue") the PVSA doesn't apply? I really don't know, just an idea.

[sail7seas]

It's not as black and white as Sid suggests. There are instances when home office employees would not be violating the law because they're not considered passengers (The prohibitions of the PVSA only apply to passengers). An explanation of the criteria and examples are given in this CPB publication:

 

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

Look at page 10 of the CBP document for the explanation and examples. Here's one:

 

A Manager, Marine Hotel Operations traveling onboard to conduct an overall

operational review, including food and beverage service, entertainment,

housekeeping, and accounting is not a "passenger" within the meaning of 46

U.S.C. § 55103 and 19 C.F.R. § 4.50(b). HQ H067177, dated July

2, 2009

 

Just speculating, but if they didn't pay passage (i.e."non-revenue") the PVSA doesn't apply? I really don't know, just an idea.

 

Interesting....... both. :)

Thanks.

 

[njhorseman]

Just speculating, but if they didn't pay passage (i.e."non-revenue") the PVSA doesn't apply? I really don't know, just an idea.

 

It has nothing to do with whether they pay for passage. In certain instances a home office employee is considered a passenger , in some cases not. The publication I referred to a couple of posts back outlines the criteria and gives examples of both.

[SuiteTraveler]

So what does the captain do if a person or family doesn't return to the ship from port?

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

 

The missing passengers are reported to the Port Agent who reports them to US Customs and Border Protection and also to the US Coast Guard. It is US Customs and Border Protection that fines the cruise line and the cruise line passes the fine onto the customer via the cruise contract. The Coast Guard keeps track of how often this happens with this particular Captain, Cruise Line, and Cruise Ship.

[NoobCruise]

So there are rules to protect passenger lines that don't even exist anymore, forbidding cruise lines to disembark dead passengers. And the captain can lose his license for allowing a dead body to be transferred to his funeral because the corpse did not visit a foreign port yet.

 

Of all amazing things I've seen on CC, this is a special one. And if this is really the case and I'm not misunderstanding, it's ugly.

 

This had my jaw hanging open too. Crazy!

[chengkp75]

So there are rules to protect passenger lines that don't even exist anymore, forbidding cruise lines to disembark dead passengers. And the captain can lose his license for allowing a dead body to be transferred to his funeral because the corpse did not visit a foreign port yet.

 

Of all amazing things I've seen on CC, this is a special one. And if this is really the case and I'm not misunderstanding, it's ugly.

 

What most people don't understand is that the PVSA covers not only the cruise industry, but ALL domestic passenger vessel trade. If the PVSA were repealed, there would be no restriction on having foreign flag ships in ferry services around the US. These ships would not have to meet USCG regulations for safety or training, and we've all recently heard about problems on ferries around the world.

 

There is no mechanism for "putting points on the Captain's license" for violations of the PVSA. The USCG has no jurisdiction to suspend or revoke a foreign Captain's license. This is why the PVSA is important, so that the US has legal authority over the certification, training, and professional conduct of the officers and crew aboard vessels involved in coastwise traffic.

 

Nothing in the PVSA prevents the Captain from disembarking a deceased passenger. The fine is levied against the cruise line simply because a passenger did not return to the original port of embarkation. The cruise line could file for, and receive, a waiver, but since the cruise contract allows them to pass the fine to the passenger, they do this, and require the passenger to take on the headache of processing a waiver. Saves them money all around.