Question for Lawyers re Jones Act

[mtwingcpa]

Wow, Bruce, that's amazingly stupid on the part of the US CBP officers. Any idea why they did that, apart from machismo?

 

Just thinking out loud... Perchance this was someone's idea of increased security proximate to our (US) July 4th holiday???

[Talisker92]

In the UK they call these people "jobsworth" - Google it. We ran into this at Heathrow where a person in security, after being asked to fast track our hand luggage, not only refused to do it, but insisted on taking everything out of my carry on. We only had an hour between connections, and this was very nerve wracking.

[zqvol]

I know basically what the Jones Act says - you can not cruise from a US port to a US port without stopping in a foreign port. However, there are a lot of small boat (<100 passenger) cruises that go from port to port in Alaska without stopping at a Canadian port. Seems like this is a violation of the Jones Act.

 

How do they get away with it? Is there an exemption for small ships? Does the fact that the cruises are intrastate cruises exempt them from interstate commerce rules? Does anyone know?

 

DON

 

 

There is not secret to it. They boats are US flagged vessels. There is no limitation about US flagged vessels transporting passengers between US ports.

[chengkp75]

I agree, I just thought it amusing that the OP asked for input from lawyers and received input from non-lawyers, or at least none who claimed to be an attorney.:)

 

Steering this back to the PVSA a bit, after a weekend at camp, while I am not an "Admiralty" lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, I have worked for 40 years on US flag vessels, including cruise ships, and have dealt with aspects of the PVSA and Jones Act for all of those years.

 

To relate to Bruce's story of CBP making up their own rules, I have sailed on ships that were not built in the US, but were purchased and then reflagged to US flag, and were hence not eligible to participate in Jones Act coastwise trade. During and after the first Gulf War, the ship I was on, which was not Jones Act eligible, was under charter to the US government to carry military cargo to Saudi Arabia and back. All was fine. Then the war wound down, and the ships were still wanted to carry US military cargo around the world to our forces anywhere. We ended up carrying military cargo from one US port to another, at the direction of Military Sealift Command, over our objections that we were not allowed to do so, only to have CBP fine us for this. CBP and MSC had to do the unthinkable and have their two agencies sit down and work out a deal that resulted in the company not getting fined, but also not being allowed (rightly so) to carry domestic cargo, even if it belongs to the US government.

 

CBP making up their rules as they go is nothing new. I ran afoul of overzealous CBP (under their previous name) agents pursuing questionable stops and searches of crewmembers on ships in the port of New Orleans back in the '70's.

[Cruzaholic41]

Wow, Bruce, that's amazingly stupid on the part of the US CBP officers. Any idea why they did that, apart from machismo?

 

It's actually not. Bruce, as always, just seems to have an ax to grind on Americans. With the current pre-clearance and the way it is set up, these regulations were agreed upon by both the U.S. and Canada. Foreign nationals cannot board (yes, even Canadians in Canada), without cause, a ship in which the passengers and crew have to go through pre-clearance into the U.S. They know that. And before people go jumping on the BruceMuzz bandwagon slamming CBP, did anyone watch the news prior to the July 4/Canada Day holidays? Terrorist internet chatter increased and there were numerous general threats. Also, the U.S. is currently in FPCON Bravo, which means tighter regulations and no corner cuts. These CBP agents were just doing their job and I applaud them.

[sail7seas]

It's actually not. Bruce, as always, just seems to have an ax to grind on Americans. With the current pre-clearance and the way it is set up, these regulations were agreed upon by both the U.S. and Canada. Foreign nationals cannot board (yes, even Canadians in Canada), without cause, a ship in which the passengers and crew have to go through pre-clearance into the U.S. They know that. And before people go jumping on the BruceMuzz bandwagon slamming CBP, did anyone watch the news prior to the July 4/Canada Day holidays? Terrorist internet chatter increased and there were numerous general threats. Also, the U.S. is currently in FPCON Bravo, which means tighter regulations and no corner cuts. These CBP agents were just doing their job and I applaud them.

 

While I don't recall the post if Bruce Muzz's comments applied to east or west coast of Canada, just today, it was announced an arrest was made in Massachusetts during the July 4 time span of at least one ISIS sympathizer who had plans to wreck havoc. A number of cruise ships sailing the Canada/NE itineraries board in Boston, MA. There were real threats and real dangers and todays' arrest is evidence of same if anyone needs a specific case in order to believe.

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by sail7seas

[chengkp75]

It's actually not. Bruce, as always, just seems to have an ax to grind on Americans. With the current pre-clearance and the way it is set up, these regulations were agreed upon by both the U.S. and Canada. Foreign nationals cannot board (yes, even Canadians in Canada), without cause, a ship in which the passengers and crew have to go through pre-clearance into the U.S. They know that. And before people go jumping on the BruceMuzz bandwagon slamming CBP, did anyone watch the news prior to the July 4/Canada Day holidays? Terrorist internet chatter increased and there were numerous general threats. Also, the U.S. is currently in FPCON Bravo, which means tighter regulations and no corner cuts. These CBP agents were just doing their job and I applaud them.

 

See the bold highlight I added to your post. Since these were Canadian Health Inspectors, they had cause to board the vessel. CBP really had nothing to do with this, it was an issue of the ISPS code, which would be the province of the port security service, local or port law enforcement (Canada) or the ship's security officer, and the ship's flag state. If the inspectors have government ID's, then they fall into a category of ship's visitors that generally meet ISPS rules for unaccompanied access to the port facilities and ships, and can arrive without notice or having to have their names placed on a "gangway" list of expected visitors. The CBP agents had every right to inspect the Canadian Health Inspectors' credentials, any packages or briefcases brought onboard, note them as visitors, and remain to ensure that they disembarked before departure, but not to detain them or deny boarding. Regardless of the status of "pre-clearing", the ship is docked in Canada, and her federal employees have the right to board the vessel at any time.

 

The whole idea of onboard health inspections is that they are unannounced. USPH shows up at the dock with no notice, and are allowed to board the vessel prior to clearance by CBP.

[Aquahound]

I have a feeling there's a piece missing from this Health Canada Officer story. Something about that story, as told, doesn't add up with me. There's probably more of a backstory that would explain it better.

[BruceMuzz]

Steering this back to the PVSA a bit, after a weekend at camp, while I am not an "Admiralty" lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, I have worked for 40 years on US flag vessels, including cruise ships, and have dealt with aspects of the PVSA and Jones Act for all of those years.

 

To relate to Bruce's story of CBP making up their own rules, I have sailed on ships that were not built in the US, but were purchased and then reflagged to US flag, and were hence not eligible to participate in Jones Act coastwise trade. During and after the first Gulf War, the ship I was on, which was not Jones Act eligible, was under charter to the US government to carry military cargo to Saudi Arabia and back. All was fine. Then the war wound down, and the ships were still wanted to carry US military cargo around the world to our forces anywhere. We ended up carrying military cargo from one US port to another, at the direction of Military Sealift Command, over our objections that we were not allowed to do so, only to have CBP fine us for this. CBP and MSC had to do the unthinkable and have their two agencies sit down and work out a deal that resulted in the company not getting fined, but also not being allowed (rightly so) to carry domestic cargo, even if it belongs to the US government.

 

CBP making up their rules as they go is nothing new. I ran afoul of overzealous CBP (under their previous name) agents pursuing questionable stops and searches of crewmembers on ships in the port of New Orleans back in the '70's.

 

Chief,

I have had similar experiences myself.

 

I was born in America and still hold a US Passport - even though I do not live there.

 

A few years back I flew from my home in Europe to join a cruise ship in New York City.

As you know, crewmembers boarding a ship usually must go through an Immigration process. New York is no exception. I presented myself to US Immigration for processing. They processed me very quickly and handed me an I-95 visa, reminding me that I must carry this visa every time I went ashore in an American port.

I reminded them that that an I-95 visa is issued only to non-US crewmembers who work on ships calling at US Ports.

They replied that even though I was born in the USA, with a US Passport, I was considered a foreigner since I lived abroad. I had to keep and carry the visa. I showed them my U.S. Merchant Marine ID Card. They said I still had to carry the I-95 in US ports.

In my position, I rarely have time to go ashore, so it was not really a problem for me.

 

Four months later I disembarked the ship in New York at the end of my contract.

I went through the standard Immigration process for disembarking crew. The Immigration Officer took back my I-95 visa, with no comments.

Then he informed me that I must be out of the country within 24 hours - which was the standard requirement for any non-US crewmember who signs off in New York. I already had my air ticket for my flight back to Paris that evening. But I asked the Officer if I wanted to stay in America and visit my parents, could I do it.

His response: "You don't live in this country. Get out and go back home."

Edited July 13, 2015 by BruceMuzz

[BruceMuzz]

I have a feeling there's a piece missing from this Health Canada Officer story. Something about that story, as told, doesn't add up with me. There's probably more of a backstory that would explain it better.

 

You may be right.

I heard this story from the Health Canada Officers who were stopped at the gangway and our American Shore Ops staff who witnessed the event. Our corporate office also explained the situation - and the reasons for placing Health Canada Officials on our security boarding list every week. But I did not hear from the US Immigration Officers who stopped them.

Edited July 13, 2015 by BruceMuzz

[sail7seas]

??? If you were born in U.S., continue to have a valid U.S. passport, how can they stop you from remaining in U.S. for as long as you wish? Don't you have the right to move back here should you choose?

 

I don't understand that post but I suppose there are lots of things I don't understand.

 

[chengkp75]

??? If you were born in U.S., continue to have a valid U.S. passport, how can they stop you from remaining in U.S. for as long as you wish? Don't you have the right to move back here should you choose?

 

I don't understand that post but I suppose there are lots of things I don't understand.

 

 

Bruce's situation is one of the more complex ones out there. CBP agents don't really know how to handle US citizens that serve onboard foreign flag ships. Just like the cruise line's customer service reps in the call centers, they really don't have a handle on situations that don't fit into common boxes. The statement from his arrival CBP agent was pure cr**, as there are a fairly vast number of US citizens that are resident in foreign countries. I myself, was required to declare residency in various foreign countries while serving on US flag ships and oil rigs overseas, for their local tax reasons. I was also physically resident in the UK for a few years, and never had to get a visa because I was "a foreigner". The fact that Bruce also had a USCG Merchant Mariner's document should have been a "light bulb" moment for them, since these are given only to US citizens or Resident Aliens.

 

Given Bruce's citizenship status (valid passport), he could have fought the decision by the CBP agent about having to leave the country within 24 hours, but this would have required a lot of time, perhaps even legal representation, and a lot of resentment from the front line CBP agents when this is bumped to a supervisor. It could also, in my experience have resulted in his detainment for arguing with CBP.

 

My experience was a CBP agent who jumped out of a car on the docks in New Orleans, identified himself as "police", and demanded that we submit to a pat down search and search of our packages when we were simply returning to the ship from shopping. He also wouldn't accept our Merchant Mariner's documents as valid ID. I wrote a complaint to my US Senator, who had appointed me to the Academy, and a few months later I received notification that the agent in question had been reprimanded, suspended, and would be removed from front-line service with CBP. However, at the time of the incident, we were within a hairbreadth of being cuffed and taken away for protesting our right to be on the dock, and take whatever we wanted on the ship.

Edited July 13, 2015 by chengkp75

[sail7seas]

Chengkp,

Thank you, once again, for such a great explanation.

It is an embarrassment when officials who should know better behave in such unprofessional and out or order manner.

 

I am always sorry when I hear of such incident.

 

[chengkp75]

Chengkp,

Thank you, once again, for such a great explanation.

It is an embarrassment when officials who should know better behave in such unprofessional and out or order manner.

 

I am always sorry when I hear of such incident.

 

 

As this happened at the beginning of my 40 years at sea, I have never lost the philosophy that "you never argue with CBP" no matter how right you are or how wrong they are, because they will ruin your day no matter what, and do what they want no matter what. Many other mariners I've worked with have had similar experiences with CBP, to the point where my standard statement about CBP is "they make up the rules as the go along".