Jury Awards $21 million to Injured HAL Passenger

[sail7seas]

Not a rant at all.

Thanks for spelling out, so clearly, such a great analysis that enables us to better understand why things 'don't appear' to be worked on despite on going complaints..

 

Hopefully, we'll be more understanding in the future of the magic we expect to be performed..... immediately.

[Lottie Linda]

Again, all I'm saying is; was HAL negligent? I for one cannot say for sure, and neither can anyone here on CC without a whole lot more information.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

 

Who can say for sure? Maybe the jury that sat through the whole trial for about twelve bucks a day. Or, we could just allow HAL to decide what they think is fair. The people or the company.

[IRL_Joanie]

.....<SNIP>.....Sorry for the rant.

I thank you for the rant. It certainly puts a new light on things and I for one appreciate the explanations that you provide, not just on this subject, but also on many others.

 

Joanie

[Fouremco]

I for one appreciate the explanations that you provide, not just on this subject, but also on many others.

Ditto. :)

[TiogaCruiser]

Google the persons name and cruise bruise for another perspective

 

Wow. Thanks for posting. One has to wonder if his prior history was entirely admissible, and whether the jury was able to consider all of the evidence of his activities (obvious abilities) afterward.

 

If he was having seizures it seems probable the medical center would have had records of that in the months he was aboard after the incident.

[MOcruiserman]

I suspect a large portion of the 21 million is for punitive damages - HAL knew of the door problem but did not fix it. This type of thing gets jurors angry and leads to large awards.

[Lizzie68]

I sympathize with you, I really do. Do these problems happen? Yes. Do they happen more often than they should? Also yes.

 

From my personal experience, I would break down these "long running" or unresolved guest complaints into 3 categories:

 

First are those that maintenance knows nothing about. NCL used, when I was there, a program for hotel management, that among many other things would allow the front desk to issue a work order for any guest or crew complaint requiring technical assistance. I can't tell you how many times I went into the morning meeting between the 2 Captains, the 2 Chiefs, and the Hotel Director, and the HD would start in on me about why the problem in cabin XYZ hadn't been addressed in 3 days. I would ask for the work order number, and he couldn't give it to me (should have been his first resource), and when I later looked for a work order, there either wasn't one or it had been entered after the morning meeting. Unfortunately, the front desk staff are trained in hotel service practices, and know nothing about the technical aspects of a ship, even having lived on one for a few years. They would get the information wrong, would not understand the severity of the situation, or would be busy and forget to enter the work order. This is a failure of guest services, and was something I tried hard to rectify by having two technical people man the "hot line" to get the information right, and get it to the correct maintenance department.

 

<snip>

 

Thanks for the info - I "snipped just to shorten this post. You basically confirmed what many of us have believed to be a major, if not crux, of the problem - lack of communication as a whole, and especially between the front office and wherever the complaint or incident should be forwarded to. Anyone who has had a mechanical malfunction in their cabin can attest to the frustration of trying to get past the front office staff. On my last cruise, the concierges were way better in dealing with these things, but they still seemed to feel that our word could not be taken, they had to wait until they had time to come and run the hot water tap for 10 - 20 minutes to prove there was no hot water, and then would put in a request for service - again. Multiple times.

 

I didn't see your post as a rant, however I could feel your frustration.

[chengkp75]

Not a rant at all.

Thanks for spelling out, so clearly, such a great analysis that enables us to better understand why things 'don't appear' to be worked on despite on going complaints..

 

Hopefully, we'll be more understanding in the future of the magic we expect to be performed..... immediately.

 

I thank you for the rant. It certainly puts a new light on things and I for one appreciate the explanations that you provide, not just on this subject, but also on many others.

 

Joanie

 

For someone who never dealt with the public for 30 years of his career, when I started with cruise ships, I tried real hard to look at things from the customers' perspective, and found it real frustrating when people whose careers are in the hospitality industry fail in some of the most basic aspects of hospitality. One of the reasons I left cruise ships and went back to "cargo that doesn't talk back". :D

 

As the US Navy's SeeBee's say: the difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer.

[SilvertoGold]

I sympathize with you, I really do. Do these problems happen? Yes. Do they happen more often than they should? Also yes.

 

From my personal experience, I would break down these "long running" or unresolved guest complaints into 3 categories:

 

First are those that maintenance knows nothing about. NCL used, when I was there, a program for hotel management, that among many other things would allow the front desk to issue a work order for any guest or crew complaint requiring technical assistance. I can't tell you how many times I went into the morning meeting between the 2 Captains, the 2 Chiefs, and the Hotel Director, and the HD would start in on me about why the problem in cabin XYZ hadn't been addressed in 3 days. I would ask for the work order number, and he couldn't give it to me (should have been his first resource), and when I later looked for a work order, there either wasn't one or it had been entered after the morning meeting. Unfortunately, the front desk staff are trained in hotel service practices, and know nothing about the technical aspects of a ship, even having lived on one for a few years. They would get the information wrong, would not understand the severity of the situation, or would be busy and forget to enter the work order. This is a failure of guest services, and was something I tried hard to rectify by having two technical people man the "hot line" to get the information right, and get it to the correct maintenance department.

 

The next group are the "behind the scenes" repairs. Sometimes we are working on your problem, but not where you can see it. I had to placate a group of 8 guest cabins who did not have working toilets for 3 days, because one of them had decided to flush a bikini down the toilet. I had two plumbers working 24 hours a day for 3 days to roto-root that clog out. We were working below the guest cabins in the crew areas where the clog had travelled to. Given that I only had 8 plumbers, who all work day shift, and by law they cannot work more than 14 hours a day, with mandated rest periods, this took some scheduling to get guys swung over to night shift to keep working on this. Did I make it a point to personally let the guests know daily what was happening? Yes. Do all engineering officers take that much pride in customer service? Probably not, and the hotel department would deflect any questions with "no problem" since they had no clue.

 

The final problem is one where there is no quick remedy, due to requirements for access or lack of spare parts. These should be identified to the guests and compensation afforded as required.

 

These are all failures of guest services, not of poor or deferred maintenance, and these account for about 98% of all guest problems that are not resolved within an hour or two.

 

One thing to remember, about 5% of the crew, maximum, are engineering staff, and these are the people who maintain everything onboard from the flag halyard on the mast to the propeller, from bow to stern, whether passenger or crew related. Most of our problems came with equipment that we had no operational control over, whether it be in passenger cabins or hotel crew operated equipment.

 

We had one electrical engineer whose sole job was to service the elevators and automatic doors. This is a full time job. Many things like these auto doors are caused by crew banging carts or mop buckets into a sliding door and setting it out of adjustment, and not telling anyone.

 

Again, all I'm saying is; was HAL negligent? I for one cannot say for sure, and neither can anyone here on CC without a whole lot more information.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

Thanks for the outstanding lesson in behinds the scene ship engineering. This is a much needed, knowledgeable and fascinating take on how ships work.

I enjoyed reading this post and learning from it.

[cbr663]

.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

Great rant. You have presented a case of poorly trained staff using an ineffective system to create work for an understaffed department. This reads like almost most large organizations today. Blaming systems, policies, procedures, directives...and whatnot allows everyone to deflect accountability to everyone else. Perhaps the $21 million award will actually cause someone at HAL to stand up and pay attention. We can only hope, as this case clearly shows, it is sometimes the passengers who suffer the most.

[Windsailer]

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/giant-verdict-against-holland-america-followed-repeat-injuries-from-ships-sliding-doors/

 

 

16.5 million was punitive damages. I found this part to be quite interesting:

 

"Friedman said the cruise line had the motion sensors on the doors set to open and close faster than normal, presumably to save on air-conditioning, although HAL in its filings denied this.

 

As a result, the doors were set to open at the last moment and close within half a second after the sensors stopped detecting motion. Friedman said this was against the manufacturer’s recommendation and was criticized by industry experts called to testify in the case."

[cbr663]

Thanks for the update. Of course HAL is going to deny the allegations, but anyone watching the video has to wonder how an automatic door could move so quickly and hit someone so violently.

 

Anyone sailing on a HAL ship knows that HAL, under the direction of Carnival Corp, has a goal of reducing fuel costs. Carnival Corp has been very open and transparent about this being a primary goal.

[chengkp75]

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/giant-verdict-against-holland-america-followed-repeat-injuries-from-ships-sliding-doors/

 

 

16.5 million was punitive damages. I found this part to be quite interesting:

 

"Friedman said the cruise line had the motion sensors on the doors set to open and close faster than normal, presumably to save on air-conditioning, although HAL in its filings denied this.

 

As a result, the doors were set to open at the last moment and close within half a second after the sensors stopped detecting motion. Friedman said this was against the manufacturer’s recommendation and was criticized by industry experts called to testify in the case."

 

If this is the case, then HAL has a serious problem with this case, and I wonder why they would pursue an appeal. However, I would love to know how this was determined to be the settings at the time of the accident, and whether this was brought to the ship's attention.

[Windsailer]

If this is the case, then HAL has a serious problem with this case, and I wonder why they would pursue an appeal. However, I would love to know how this was determined to be the settings at the time of the accident, and whether this was brought to the ship's attention.

 

I presume they obtained records from HAL that allowed the determination to be made, as well as depositions from the ship's crew responsible for maintaining the doors.

 

This was a federal court trial in front of a very good judge. I doubt the decision will be reversed.

[avian777]

... This was a federal court trial in front of a very good judge. I doubt the decision will be reversed.

 

... Judge Rothstein (in front of whom the case was tried) may be a very good judge, so the decision itself may not be reversed. However, it should be noted that it was a jury (of laymen) that added $16.5 million in punitive damages to the original $5 damages verdict. As such, I will not be surprised if the amount of the punitive damages award is reduced on appeal. JMO, of course.

[corkpopr]

hope the whole award gets overturned or maybe 50k total. that is complete bull and is why jurys should never set the amounts.

[avian777]

hope the whole award gets overturned or maybe 50k total. that is complete bull and is why jurys should never set the amounts.

 

Right you are - exorbitant jury awards cost ALL OF US millions of $$ each year ... but will our elected officials do anything meaningful in the way of tort reforms? Not a chance!

Edited November 11, 2015 by avian777

[kevingastreich]

Where was the passenger when injured ? I was under the impression that it was very hard to sue cruise lines as , you are not on American soil , ship is not registered in the USA , your cruise "contract" insists on binding arbitration etc etc .

 

One report I read said they were near Hawaii.

[chengkp75]

One report I read said they were near Hawaii.

 

Location doesn't matter, see post #17 for the answer to this.

[seattle013]

Brought up at trial: He continued to enjoy himself even after his traumatic head injury: Stayed on the ship for another 5 months, said suffered from vertigo but still rode elephants, enjoyed ports.

 

He complained of bright lights but still went to the casino most nights. He drank heavily both before and after the accident as bar staff noted he drank 24 beers a day in his cabin and more at night in the casino.

 

He filed lawsuits over ten previous times.

Edited November 11, 2015 by seattle013

[janmcn]

Clip in ABC news tonight showed the man walking fine by himself in a post-cruise surveillance video. Definitely not in a nursing home, etc. 21 Million is way extravagant for this! Hope HAL does appeal this.

[Suite Travels]

This is total BS. Really? That award is absurd. Litigious society....sue for anything.

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

Brought up at trial: He continued to enjoy himself even after his traumatic head injury: Stayed on the ship for another 5 months, said suffered from vertigo but still rode elephants, enjoyed ports.

 

He complained of bright lights but still went to the casino most nights. He drank heavily both before and after the accident as bar staff noted he drank 24 beers a day in his cabin and more at night in the casino.

 

He filed lawsuits over ten previous times.

 

And the lawsuit was 3 years later - wasn't the time period 2011-2012? This is what drives me crazy - ambulance chasing attorneys.

[BeagleOne]

If he stayed on the ship for another five months the injury couldn't have been that traumatic. I hope the punitive damages are greatly reduced on appeal.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Brought up at trial: He continued to enjoy himself even after his traumatic head injury: Stayed on the ship for another 5 months, said suffered from vertigo but still rode elephants, enjoyed ports.

 

He complained of bright lights but still went to the casino most nights. He drank heavily both before and after the accident as bar staff noted he drank 24 beers a day in his cabin and more at night in the casino.

 

He filed lawsuits over ten previous times.

 

I wonder if he won any of the other lawsuits. Or maybe the companies he sued settled rather than go to court and deal with negative publicity.

 

The amount of the award will almost certainly be reduced on appeal. They usually are. Juries find it easy to give away money that doesn't come out of their own pockets.