Bait and switch

[NLH Arizona]

It's not arbitrary. The UBP costs $64/day times 7 days for 2 people = $896. Take $896 times 18% = $161.28. Nothing arbitrary about it. If you feel it is not worth it than just choose a different promo. For me it's a steal.

 

 

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Just using logic, if one does not feel that they will have at least 2 or 3 drinks a day on a seven day cruise, maybe the UBP is not the right choice of perks for them. I picked it for my last cruise, as I had already purchased the UDP, and by the end of the cruise, I figured out that I barely drank enough to equal the tip amount (luckily mine was before the 18 percent gratuity was added and I gave tips between $1 and $2 cash for each of the drinks I had), so this would not be the perk for me. On my next cruise, I choose the UDP, which I will benefit from much more. We all have choices...if one doesn't think one perk benefits them or has the terms one agrees with, they can always choose another. Edited December 24, 2015 by NLH Arizona

[Moby0215]

Just using logic, if one does not feel that they will have at least 2 or 3 drinks a day on a seven day cruise, maybe the UBP is not the right choice of perks for them. I picked it for my last cruise, as I had already purchased the UDP, and by the end of the cruise, I figured out that I barely drank enough to equal the tip amount (luckily mine was before the 18 percent gratuity was added and I gave tips between $1 and $2 cash for each of the drinks I had), so this would not be the perk for me. On my next cruise, I choose the UDP, which I will benefit from much more. We all have choices...if one doesn't think one perk benefits them or has the terms one agrees with, they can always choose another.

 

 

Totally agree

 

 

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[mianmike]

It's not arbitrary. The UBP costs $64/day times 7 days for 2 people = $896. Take $896 times 18% = $161.28. Nothing arbitrary about it. If you feel it is not worth it than just choose a different promo. For me it's a steal.

 

 

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I understand your logic; it's the same as NCL's. The UBP may be a good deal for most, but it's nowhere near "free." The UBP is supposed to be FREE, therefore there is nothing to base the 18%. The UBP "cost" of $64 per day is totally arbitrary since it's advertised as free. Everyone drinks different amounts. One shouldn't have to be a CPA to figure out if a "FREE" deal and its buried fine print are cost-effective. As I said before, NCL should be upfront and list it as:

 

FREE BEVERAGE INGREDIENTS, (Mixing, pouring and handling drink not included, you do the math)

[Moby0215]

I understand your logic; it's the same as NCL's. The UBP may be a good deal for most, but it's nowhere near "free." The UBP is supposed to be FREE, therefore there is nothing to base the 18%. The UBP "cost" of $64 per day is totally arbitrary since it's advertised as free. Everyone drinks different amounts. One shouldn't have to be a CPA to figure out if a "FREE" deal and its buried fine print are cost-effective. As I said before, NCL should be upfront and list it as:

 

 

 

FREE BEVERAGE INGREDIENTS, (Mixing, pouring and handling drink not included, you do the math)

 

 

I understand we can agree to disagree. But please tell me where you stand on the coupon for a free meal comparison? Wouldn't you pay an auto gratuity or tip if it wasn't auto?

 

 

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[mianmike]

I understand we can agree to disagree. But please tell me where you stand on the coupon for a free meal comparison? Wouldn't you pay an auto gratuity or tip if it wasn't auto?

 

 

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I would gladly pay a tip for a free meal as long as the restaurant didn't invent a price based on a theoretical meal, but rather the normal menu cost of the meal. Just as I would gladly pay an 18% tip (based off of menu price) for each free drink I consumed.

[Moby0215]

I would gladly pay a tip for a free meal as long as the restaurant didn't invent a price based on a theoretical meal, but rather the normal menu cost of the meal. Just as I would gladly pay an 18% tip (based off of menu price) for each free drink I consumed.

 

 

Duly noted. My point (or opinion in you prefer) is that the price isn't invented nor theoretical. It is an actual cost of what the UBP really costs. I understand that some people think about only what they drank and want to tip only on that portion vs tipping on the cost of the package. And if that is the case then the package is not for you. You are still able to buy drinks one by one and tip on those drinks one by one. How this pertains to the thread is that it is not bait and switch. And if you don't agree that's fine. We can disagree.

 

 

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[sparks1093]

I would gladly pay a tip for a free meal as long as the restaurant didn't invent a price based on a theoretical meal, but rather the normal menu cost of the meal. Just as I would gladly pay an 18% tip (based off of menu price) for each free drink I consumed.

 

NCL is not inventing the price, if you don't have the UBP because of a promotion you have to pay $64 per day per person for it (such as the third person in a cabin when only the first two get the promotion).

[mianmike]

NCL is not inventing the price, if you don't have the UBP because of a promotion you have to pay $64 per day per person for it (such as the third person in a cabin when only the first two get the promotion).

 

I understand. But I don’t know if I would use the word “inventing.” To get to the $64/day figure I imagine NCL has come up with a let's see how much we can charge type business pricing model. I don’t know how else to explain the drastic UBP price increase. In 2013 the UBP was $49 per person per day with a 15% auto-gratuity. Since then NCL has raised the price 30%. Has the cost of wholesale alcohol gone up 30% in two years? We know they increased the auto-gratuity to 18% to cover labor. Obviously they are going to charge as much as they can get away with. I call that UBP cost figure arbitrary and should not be used to justify a one-size-fits-all autogratuity for supposed “free” booze. Del Rio would charge 18% per drink if it was more profitable, but I would guess with free UBP there are enough light drinkers in the mix he can skim some of the "Promotional Service Charge" revenue off the top and put in the profit column. By calling it a "Promotional Service Charge" he can use the money however he sees fit.

[pokerpro5]

lol cheerleaders

 

If NCL advertises anything as included, and then changes it (in the form of charging for it) AFTER people booked, they need to honor it.

 

I don't care if they can find a way to worm out of it legally. Failing to honor your company's advertisements is very unethical.

 

Anyone who says, "Well, there are so many other things to eat onboard" or "They never said WHICH food was guaranteed as part of you fare" is completely missing the point.

[broberts]

I understand we can agree to disagree. But please tell me where you stand on the coupon for a free meal comparison? Wouldn't you pay an auto gratuity or tip if it wasn't auto?

 

 

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The question suggests a false equivalence since a tip is an option paid at the discretion of the diner. A service charge is a fee assessed by the seller. If a service fee is charged, the coupon is no longer for a "free meal".

 

Whether or not one elects to pay tips is not relevant to this discussion.

 

Duly noted. My point (or opinion in you prefer) is that the price isn't invented nor theoretical. It is an actual cost of what the UBP really costs. I understand that some people think about only what they drank and want to tip only on that portion vs tipping on the cost of the package. And if that is the case then the package is not for you. You are still able to buy drinks one by one and tip on those drinks one by one. How this pertains to the thread is that it is not bait and switch. And if you don't agree that's fine. We can disagree.

 

 

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The price is clearly invented. Suggesting otherwise seems foolish.

 

Service charges are NOT tips. They are fees. A tip is something that is entirely optional and paid at the discretion of the tipper. When an employer forces customers to pay a fee for service, that is NOT a tip. When the fee for service is not based on the actual service delivered, the basis for the fee is clearly invented, i.e. arbitrary.

Edited December 25, 2015 by broberts

[papcx]

WOW.

 

I'm going to need a 3rd batch of popcorn!

 

In fairness, most posts are very well argued even if I disagree with some points I can appreciate a good debate.

 

It's a shame some resort to name calling, that's what tends to get these threads closed. And I do like my popcorn.

 

Merry Xmas everyone.

[sparks1093]

I understand. But I don’t know if I would use the word “inventing.” To get to the $64/day figure I imagine NCL has come up with a let's see how much we can charge type business pricing model. I don’t know how else to explain the drastic UBP price increase. In 2013 the UBP was $49 per person per day with a 15% auto-gratuity. Since then NCL has raised the price 30%. Has the cost of wholesale alcohol gone up 30% in two years? We know they increased the auto-gratuity to 18% to cover labor. Obviously they are going to charge as much as they can get away with. I call that UBP cost figure arbitrary and should not be used to justify a one-size-fits-all autogratuity for supposed “free” booze. Del Rio would charge 18% per drink if it was more profitable, but I would guess with free UBP there are enough light drinkers in the mix he can skim some of the "Promotional Service Charge" revenue off the top and put in the profit column. By calling it a "Promotional Service Charge" he can use the money however he sees fit.

 

Del Rio is bound and determined to get his $4 to $5 more per passenger per day and has raised the price on sodas because passengers are a captive audience and will buy the soda anyway, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit that the UBP was raised 30% using the same logic (especially since bar sales are so important to NCL's bottom line). (And increasing the price makes the "free" promotion look more attractive for customers.) I doubt that NCL is keeping any of the promotional service charge since the servers know quite well that they should be receiving it and they still need to be paid, but at this stage of the game I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they are.

[Moby0215]

The question suggests a false equivalence since a tip is an option paid at the discretion of the diner. A service charge is a fee assessed by the seller. If a service fee is charged, the coupon is no longer for a "free meal".

 

 

 

Whether or not one elects to pay tips is not relevant to this discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The price is clearly invented. Suggesting otherwise seems foolish.

 

 

 

Service charges are NOT tips. They are fees. A tip is something that is entirely optional and paid at the discretion of the tipper. When an employer forces customers to pay a fee for service, that is NOT a tip. When the fee for service is not based on the actual service delivered, the basis for the fee is clearly invented, i.e. arbitrary.

 

 

I see you are from Canada. I do not know what the customs are there, but here in the US while a tip is not legally mandatory it is surely customarily required. So much so that there are time i.e. Parties of 6 or more, coupons used, etc, where the tip (or service charge of you prefer) would be auto included. We are splitting hairs saying that a tip is at the discretion of the customer vs service charge not being a tip because of the fact that the tip is to be assumed. Again surely it is not bound legally, but you would have to be very rude not to do so. So if we go by your standard of the tip being voluntary (but knowing almost everyone will tip) the meal is free, the tip is not. If you don't see it that way then that is fine, we can disagree, but it does not change the fact that it is nowhere close to bait and switch.

 

When you say the price is clearly invented, what price are you referring to? The cost of the service charge on the UBP? Because I already explained where that comes from. And prior to UBP being offered as a promo one still had to pay this service charge after having to pay for the package. The service you are paying for is the service of unlimited drinks. That service has one cost. And that cost has one service charge associated with it. As I have previously mentioned, if you don't like it or just feel that the amount you are going to drink is not worth the service charge then you are free to choose something else.

 

I will give you one more restaurant analogy. There is a place I frequent that has a Sunday brunch that includes an entree, and unlimited mimosas or bloody marys. It has a cost of $19.99. Now some people may only have 1 or 2 drinks and others may have 8 or 10. But suggesting that the person who only had 1 or 2 drinks not tip the customary 18% (or whatever is customary in the city/state this is taking place) is what is foolish. Now the person who had the 8 or 10 drinks may choose to give more than the customary 18% but that does not change the fact that 18% in this case is what was paid as the minimum by each party involved.

 

 

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[LMaxwell]

I see you are from Canada. I do not know what the customs are there, but here in the US while a tip is not legally mandatory it is surely customarily required. So much so that there are time i.e. Parties of 6 or more, coupons used, etc, where the tip (or service charge of you prefer) would be auto included.

 

 

 

Now the person who had the 8 or 10 drinks may choose to give more than the customary 18% but that does not change the fact that 18% in this case is what was paid as the minimum by each party involved.

 

If you're going to give explanations to people who do not live in the U.S., they should be accurate explanations and adequately describe the difference between customary, mandatory, minimum, etc. Your explanation is not accurate and would lead someone to believe that coupons in the US come with mandatory fees and that 18% is a minimum required tip.

 

Customary in U.S. - 15% to 20% of total check; pre-tax.

Mandatory - 0%

Minimum - $0

 

As noted; parties of a certain number may attract a minimum charge; have never seen any place as low as 5 people though. In most places I see 8 or more, sometimes 6. In those cases I generally see varying numbers of 15% to 20% as well.

[Moby0215]

If you're going to give explanations to people who do not live in the U.S., they should be accurate explanations and adequately describe the difference between customary, mandatory, minimum, etc. Your explanation is not accurate and would lead someone to believe that coupons in the US come with mandatory fees and that 18% is a minimum required tip.

 

 

 

Customary in U.S. - 15% to 20% of total check; pre-tax.

 

Mandatory - 0%

 

Minimum - $0

 

 

 

As noted; parties of a certain number may attract a minimum charge; have never seen any place as low as 5 people though. In most places I see 8 or more, sometimes 6. In those cases I generally see varying numbers of 15% to 20% as well.

 

 

I agree with almost everything you said. I don't think I ever said mandatory. The 18% quoted was only because that is the average customary number and also happens to be what NCL charges. The exact number will vary from region to region. Here where I live in MD the customary amount is closer to 20%. And my opinion is that there is a minimum. If one does not plan on tipping in the US then it is my opinion that they should not go out to eat/drink as the the tip is not only customary but also expected.

 

 

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[fshagan]

As noted; parties of a certain number may attract a minimum charge; have never seen any place as low as 5 people though. In most places I see 8 or more, sometimes 6. In those cases I generally see varying numbers of 15% to 20% as well.

 

Six is usually the number I see, and the rationale is that it takes more than one server and food runner to serve the larger group. Management assesses the fee and then divides it up so there aren't fist fights in kitchen.

 

In the US, you can also have mandatory tips if the restaurant is under sanctions by the IRS for not withholding enough from servers for tip income. This is very rare but does happen. In these cases, the tips become more like NCLs "gratuities and service charges" because they must be added to the bill for record keeping and not written in by the customer. A greedy server can pocket the tip and not report the income in those cases, putting both himself and the restaurant in jeopardy. The restaurant owner who let's a server get by without claiming any tips is a fool; he is responsible for his share of the FICA and Medicaid taxes on that income. So there are provisions to add in tip income even when the server says he had nothing but Brits or people over 60 all week who stiffed him.

 

In the case of NCL, I think the tip income has to be recorded for whatever contract provision they have with all the different countries the workers are from. The US tax law is really simple: you pay tax on all income everywhere. If you a dual citizen living in the UK, you pay US income tax on all your income earned there even if you have never been to the US (modified in most cases by credits or offsets via tax treaties). You pay income tax on all gambling winnings whether in Las Vegas, Monte Carlo, or on the high seas in the NCL casino. And you pay tax on tips, and if you don't report any tip income, you pay tax on the amount the IRS thinks you should have gotten.

 

But countries like the Philippines exempt tips from income tax. That makes it much more advantageous for the Filipino to have all of his income from a shared tip pool if possible. My understanding is that the low monthly wages traditionally on cruise ships helped the person remain in a very low tax bracket while still earning a good income from tips he didn't need to claim. To make Freestyle work, the workers have to get their tips from a tip pool in order to remain in the lower tax brackets. It must be a job for cruise lines to structure the pay of a person based on the contract with his maritime worker's union in his home country when there can be dozens of nationalities on board. But I imagine auto-tips added to the bill assist in that effort.

[swedish weave]

Six is usually the number I see, and the rationale is that it takes more than one server and food runner to serve the larger group. Management assesses the fee and then divides it up so there aren't fist fights in kitchen.

 

In the US, you can also have mandatory tips if the restaurant is under sanctions by the IRS for not withholding enough from servers for tip income. This is very rare but does happen. In these cases, the tips become more like NCLs "gratuities and service charges" because they must be added to the bill for record keeping and not written in by the customer. A greedy server can pocket the tip and not report the income in those cases, putting both himself and the restaurant in jeopardy. The restaurant owner who let's a server get by without claiming any tips is a fool; he is responsible for his share of the FICA and Medicaid taxes on that income. So there are provisions to add in tip income even when the server says he had nothing but Brits or people over 60 all week who stiffed him.

 

In the case of NCL, I think the tip income has to be recorded for whatever contract provision they have with all the different countries the workers are from. The US tax law is really simple: you pay tax on all income everywhere. If you a dual citizen living in the UK, you pay US income tax on all your income earned there even if you have never been to the US (modified in most cases by credits or offsets via tax treaties). You pay income tax on all gambling winnings whether in Las Vegas, Monte Carlo, or on the high seas in the NCL casino. And you pay tax on tips, and if you don't report any tip income, you pay tax on the amount the IRS thinks you should have gotten.

 

But countries like the Philippines exempt tips from income tax. That makes it much more advantageous for the Filipino to have all of his income from a shared tip pool if possible. My understanding is that the low monthly wages traditionally on cruise ships helped the person remain in a very low tax bracket while still earning a good income from tips he didn't need to claim. To make Freestyle work, the workers have to get their tips from a tip pool in order to remain in the lower tax brackets. It must be a job for cruise lines to structure the pay of a person based on the contract with his maritime worker's union in his home country when there can be dozens of nationalities on board. But I imagine auto-tips added to the bill assist in that effort.

 

The key words I note in this post are "I think" and "I imagine".

[Golfin55]

Del Rio is bound and determined to get his $4 to $5 more per passenger per day and has raised the price on sodas because passengers are a captive audience and will buy the soda anyway, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit that the UBP was raised 30% using the same logic (especially since bar sales are so important to NCL's bottom line). (And increasing the price makes the "free" promotion look more attractive for customers.) I doubt that NCL is keeping any of the promotional service charge since the servers know quite well that they should be receiving it and they still need to be paid, but at this stage of the game I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they are.

 

 

Please quantity your post. When did you have a conversation with him that led you to belief in his EVIL determination to mug all his passengers?

[SteveH2508]

Please quantity your post. When did you have a conversation with him that led you to belief in his EVIL determination to mug all his passengers?

 

He said these things in a briefing to stockholders a few months ago.:p

[luvtheships]

I called them to see what's up with their service. They are a monthly garage parking rental company and new to offering their service to cruise ship passengers. Looks like they have all good reviews. This isn't an endorsement, but hell... I'm giving them a try.

 

 

 

I have plenty of insurance and we'll bring the Leased car!!! Worst case... After a wonderful cruise on the GEM, we get to go car shopping again when we get home Feb 1st. Potamkin Cadillac is right down the street from the pier and the money saved is more than my deductible!!

 

 

 

Merry Christmas and Happy, Healthy New Year!!!!

 

 

Lol. My friend just got put $900 into dent repair before she gave back the leased bmw...but they still sent her another bill for $200

 

Probably because she just returned the car without re leasing another one

[Demonyte]

Please quantity your post. When did you have a conversation with him that led you to belief in his EVIL determination to mug all his passengers?

 

 

As Steve said, it's all been discussed here several times with all the needed references.

[sparks1093]

Please quantity your post. When did you have a conversation with him that led you to belief in his EVIL determination to mug all his passengers?

 

As others have said these are public statements that he has made that have been written about by the media and discussed on this board.

[broberts]

I see you are from Canada. I do not know what the customs are there, but here in the US while a tip is not legally mandatory it is surely customarily required. So much so that there are time i.e. Parties of 6 or more, coupons used, etc, where the tip (or service charge of you prefer) would be auto included. We are splitting hairs saying that a tip is at the discretion of the customer vs service charge not being a tip because of the fact that the tip is to be assumed. Again surely it is not bound legally, but you would have to be very rude not to do so. So if we go by your standard of the tip being voluntary (but knowing almost everyone will tip) the meal is free, the tip is not. If you don't see it that way then that is fine, we can disagree, but it does not change the fact that it is nowhere close to bait and switch.

 

When you say the price is clearly invented, what price are you referring to? ...

 

I will give you one more restaurant analogy. There is a place I frequent that has a Sunday brunch that includes an entree, and unlimited mimosas or bloody marys. It has a cost of $19.99. Now some people may only have 1 or 2 drinks and others may have 8 or 10. But suggesting that the person who only had 1 or 2 drinks not tip the customary 18% (or whatever is customary in the city/state this is taking place) is what is foolish. Now the person who had the 8 or 10 drinks may choose to give more than the customary 18% but that does not change the fact that 18% in this case is what was paid as the minimum by each party involved.

 

 

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I guess it will come as a surprise that the fact one lives in a different country does not make them ignorant of practices in another country.

 

A tip in Canada, the USA, and in fact anywhere English is spoken is always optional and at the discretion of the person who might award some amount. The fact that in Canada and the USA tipping is customary does not change that fact. It is a simple matter of language.

 

Just because you expect others to behave as you want does not mean they have to. Just because a group of people expect a certain behavior does not make it required.

 

It is troubling that there are those who cannot see a difference between freedom and coercion. When a cruise line says that a payment for service is required, that is coercion in a very general sense. When a cruise line says that payment for service is suggested at some rate, that is freedom of choice. The distinction is very clear and non-trivial.

 

Whether an action is rude or not is immaterial to this discussion.

 

The question is obtuse.

 

Again, if something is "customary" it is not required. A person can elect to tip nothing or any other amount they wish. It is no one else's business what they elect to pay.

 

On the other hand, if there is a little asterisk beside the $19.99 price and the note says that an 18% service charge applies, the customer is obligated to pay the 18%. That is a fee and in fact the cost of the meal is not $19.99 but $23.59. A customer can elect to add a tip or not. Again, at their discretion.

Edited December 26, 2015 by broberts

[NLH Arizona]

On the other hand, if there is a little asterisk beside the $19.99 price and the note says that an 18% service charge applies, the customer is obligated to pay the 18%. That is a fee and in fact the cost of the meal is not $19.99 but $23.59. A customer can elect to add a tip or not. Again, at their discretion.

Wonder if that is why NCL calls it an 18% gratuity and beverage service charge? Many in the US and Canada wouldn't have an issue paying an 18% gratuity, but those that tipping is not part of their culture, would be more likely to not have an issue with a service charge, where they would have an issue paying a gratuity. Edited December 26, 2015 by NLH Arizona

[pokerpro5]

I am not convinced that any of the 18% service charges on NCL actually make it over to the staff directly.

 

I think that the staff is promised a certain pay, and then the 18% service charge is just reimbursing NCL for paying those salaries.

 

For example, let's take specialty dining on the NCL Dawn.

 

If tomorrow 400 people eat at Cagney's, I am not convinced that the servers will make twice as much that day as if 200 people ate at Cagney's (even though twice as much in service charges will have definitely been collected).

 

From a variety of reasons, I have theorized that NCL is keeping all of the money collected via the DSC and 18% service charges, and that the staff pay is constant.