Diving age discrimination

[cruz chic]

Lay off the IT guys, 'mkay! The people booking excursions apparently can't read. :D ;) :( :eek:

 

....but...but why should they have to :D;)?

[Aquahound]

The Oxford dictionary defines discrimination as: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age:

 

Age limits on physical activities offered by tour companies are not unjust or prejudicial.

 

Once again, its a limit, not discrimination.

[hrhdhd]

I thought it's "the customer is always right." ;)

[RDC1]

To clarify a point here: the age limit was printed on the excursion tickets. When we picked up the excursion package and examined the tickets is when I noticed it. We were already at sea and all I could do was go to the excursion desk and cancel the dive. At that point all I could do was wait and see and hope for the best. Whether it was posted or not does not change the fact that HAL and the dive shop discriminated based solely on age.

 

So just to be absolutely clear:

 

You did not notice the age limitations that HAL does include in their descriptions of the excursion.

 

You did notice the age limitation posted on the excursion ticket. But instead of going to the excursion desk and cancel your participation you chose to go anyway and see if they would let you dive. Which they did not.

 

Now the last time I was on a HAL ship I got my prebooked excursion tickets when I boarded. They were in my room. That means that you would have had at least a day or two to see if you could set up an alternative, if you had looked at them on arrival. So apparently you did not or you chose not to take action.

 

Even on board ship these days with internet one can contact vendors and can set up alternatives. Especially in cruise ports where the vendors are used to establishing reservations over the internet in competition with ship vendors.

 

To be honest there were mistakes made but not on the part of HAL. Nor on the part of their vendor.

 

To be a vendor on an excursion you must meet a number of requirements on how you run operations. That includes meeting the requirements for insurance, legal liability and meeting safety requirements. Those standards are dictated by the cruise lines. If they were to ignore those requirements and they were observed doing so by a member of the crew or an accident were to happen they would risk permanent lose of the contract with the cruise line.

 

If one does not like those requirements and the limits that results they need to not use ship excursion vendors.

[FredT]

To clarify a point here: the age limit was printed on the excursion tickets. When we picked up the excursion package and examined the tickets is when I noticed it. We were already at sea and all I could do was go to the excursion desk and cancel the dive. At that point all I could do was wait and see and hope for the best. Whether it was posted or not does not change the fact that HAL and the dive shop discriminated based solely on age.

 

Hmmm... A few years ago we also found out (after sailing) that a booked shore excursion was not what we had expected. Cost me almost $30.00 :eek: to log onto the HAL internet, research alternatives and book one. (Almost 20 minutes of my time!)

 

AND a few years before that,we were on the Veendam with a short scheduled stop at Port Stanley. So short that there was not time to do Volunteer point and the penguins. The night before we arrived (in the middle of the south atlantic) the captain came on and said that we were running ahead and would be there for 4 more hours. Again to the computer, and a quick booking which turned out to be the best shore excursion I have ever done... (And that was on a HAL computer in the middle of the atlantic. )

 

No sympathy from me.

[RDC1]

Age limits on physical activities offered by tour companies are not unjust or prejudicial.

 

Once again, its a limit, not discrimination.

 

Yep.

 

As we age we all like to feel that we are an exception and maybe we are.

 

However, the cruise lines that serve millions of passengers do not have any practical way to evaluate the health and physical capacity of each and every passenger. As such the limits must be established somewhere and that somewhere is the result of actuarial data used by their insurance companies.

 

Though if one looks at the data I am surprised that they don't have the cutoff at age 60 because age 60-64 is the peak for diving fatalities according to DAN fatality records. It remains high for over 65, but is slightly lower then the 60-64 age group.

[sail7seas]

Why does a booking system have to catch it? The op also admitted it was printed on their ticket but hoped for the best :rolleyes:. Why is there never any personal responsibility for some?

 

Thank you.

 

I wonder if there is anything the OP would do differently when next booking excursions for a cruise?

 

Maybe we all can learn a lesson without doing it the 'hard way'.

[pv girl]

Yep.

 

As we age we all like to feel that we are an exception and maybe we are.

 

However, the cruise lines that serve millions of passengers do not have any practical way to evaluate the health and physical capacity of each and every passenger. As such the limits must be established somewhere and that somewhere is the result of actuarial data used by their insurance companies.

 

A little off topic, but similar age restrictions apply to some car rental companies. Especially in Europe, some restrict age limit for authorized drivers at 80, and some even at 70 or 75. Need to always read the fine print on any contract.

[Dashwood100]

I wish to thank you for pointing out “read the fine print”. I shall endeavor to understand the legalese that protects everyone but me.

 

I also have to agree with hrhdhd that HAL could program that “limit” into the booking system to prevent this unfortunate problem.

[serendipity1499]

Public businesses do not have cart blanch to post illegal rules and this has been upheld many times in the courts. Restaurants can post "no shoes, no shirt, no service" but they can't post "no Blacks" or "no Muslims".

 

Oxford dictionary defines discrimination as: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age:

 

Public Businesses throughout the world do in fact have carte blanch to post any rule they want & YOU do not have the right to go against their rules when you travel out of the United States!

 

This age limit was neither unjust or prejudicial.. It is a protection for the vendor & HAL..It may have been required by their insurance company.. Insurance companies have stats which tend to indicate that the older a person is, the more vulnerable they are to have medical issues when doing certain physical activities such as diving..

 

Age limits on physical activities offered by tour companies are not unjust or prejudicial.

 

Once again, its a limit, not discrimination.

 

Completely agree Aquahound!

[serendipity1499]

Yep.

 

As we age we all like to feel that we are an exception and maybe we are.

 

However, the cruise lines that serve millions of passengers do not have any practical way to evaluate the health and physical capacity of each and every passenger. As such the limits must be established somewhere and that somewhere is the result of actuarial data used by their insurance companies.

Though if one looks at the data I am surprised that they don't have the cutoff at age 60 because age 60-64 is the peak for diving fatalities according to DAN fatality records. It remains high for over 65, but is slightly lower then the 60-64 age group.[/QUOTE]

 

I bolded your last paragraph, as only read it after I posted, but have suspected that all along..

 

Unfortunately, as we get older, sometimes we think we can do things that we did when we were younger.. I learned this after I had my hip replacement.. Still find myself trying to do things which I know are wrong for me to do.. It's a sad fact when we find out that we can't..:(:( Yes it's tough getting old!

[scubacruiserx2]

I just wanted to report that Holland America Line and Dive Friends Bonaire partner to participate in age discrimination for scuba divers. I took my wife and grandson an a 10 day cruise from Ft. Lauderdale, FL through the Antilles to Bonaire, Curacao, and Aruba and back to Ft. Lauderdale. The cruise went well and we did have fun but in Bonaire, Holland America is partnered with Dive Friends Bonaire and they refused to let me scuba dive because I am over 65. I am a Master Diver with hundreds of dives in many environments and have been diving for over 20 years. I am in good health and physical shape and have no physical or medical problems and take no medications. At the dive shop we did not get to examine my medical conditions because once they saw my age that was the end of the trip. I could not dive because I am over 65 with no other consideration, just age. That equates to "age discrimination". Had we known this prior to booking we would have booked with a different cruise line and dive shop. Bonaire itself does not have an age limit on scuba diving but Dive Friends Bonaire when partnered with Holland America Line does.

 

Beware

Not a pleasant surprise. We usually book independent dive shops.

Thank you for the heads-up.

I guess this falls under "Plan your dive and dive your plan".

We need to read the restrictions so we don't end up frustrated and missing out.

HAL is very clear as to the criteria to dive.

Notes:

This is a two-tank boat dive for certified divers. All participants must pay a mandatory US$10 Marine Park fee, which cannot be pre-paid; please ensure that you carry this cash payment with you to remit at the dive center. Wear your swimsuit; bring a towel. Waiver release form must be signed and medical conditions disclosed. Bring your C-card and dive log. Participants must hold a PADI open water scuba certification or BSAC Ocean Diver certification and have logged a dive in the past two years. Divers with a PADI Junior Open Water or a PADI Scuba Dive rating will not be accepted. You must take a refresher course if you have not been diving within the last 24 months. Minimum age is 15 years; maximum age is 65 years. Maximum weight is 265 lbs. Equipment includes two tanks, weights, BC, regulator, mask, fins and snorkel. Wetsuits can be rented at extra cost. Guests with ear infections/disorders, flu or cold symptoms, sinus problems, diabetes, heart condition, epilepsy, asthma, high blood pressure, walking disabilities, leg injuries, chest injuries and/or recovering from surgery or under prescription medication of any kind (except birth control), amputees, individuals with mobility limitations, and pregnant women are not allowed to participate.

 

According to this, my husband(Rescue diver w/ fire rescue, 1000+ dives), myself(certified in 1974(900+dives) and our 13 year old grandson(certified July 2015) could not dive with HAL, in Bonaire, because of age and recent surgery ( knee). Really need to read and be aware of rules for each destination.

[serendipity1499]

Not a pleasant surprise. We usually book independent dive shops.

Thank you for the heads-up.

I guess this falls under "Plan your dive and dive your plan".

We need to read the restrictions so we don't end up frustrated and missing out.

HAL is very clear as to the criteria to dive.

Notes:

This is a two-tank boat dive for certified divers. All participants must pay a mandatory US$10 Marine Park fee, which cannot be pre-paid; please ensure that you carry this cash payment with you to remit at the dive center. Wear your swimsuit; bring a towel. Waiver release form must be signed and medical conditions disclosed. Bring your C-card and dive log. Participants must hold a PADI open water scuba certification or BSAC Ocean Diver certification and have logged a dive in the past two years. Divers with a PADI Junior Open Water or a PADI Scuba Dive rating will not be accepted. You must take a refresher course if you have not been diving within the last 24 months. Minimum age is 15 years; maximum age is 65 years. Maximum weight is 265 lbs. Equipment includes two tanks, weights, BC, regulator, mask, fins and snorkel. Wetsuits can be rented at extra cost. Guests with ear infections/disorders, flu or cold symptoms, sinus problems, diabetes, heart condition, epilepsy, asthma, high blood pressure, walking disabilities, leg injuries, chest injuries and/or recovering from surgery or under prescription medication of any kind (except birth control), amputees, individuals with mobility limitations, and pregnant women are not allowed to participate.

 

According to this, my husband(Rescue diver w/ fire rescue, 1000+ dives), myself(certified in 1974(900+dives) and our 13 year old grandson(certified July 2015) could not dive with HAL, in Bonaire, because of age and recent surgery ( knee). Really need to read and be aware of rules for each destination.

 

Thank you for posting the written rules/requirements of this tour.. The Op claimed that he was not aware of the rule until he received his tickets on board...He led us to believe that the rule was not posted.. So he either did not read the rule or did read the rule but thought he could get away with it..The rules are very clear..Unfortunately, he was not permitted to dive.. So be it!

 

IMO there is no excuse not to take responsibility for his mistake & learn from it..

Edited January 6, 2016 by serendipity1499

[Boytjie]

A little off topic, but similar age restrictions apply to some car rental companies. Especially in Europe, some restrict age limit for authorized drivers at 80, and some even at 70 or 75. Need to always read the fine print on any contract.

 

Then there is the age discrimination against drivers under 25 (or is it 23) by car rental companies? Do they still do that? It has been a long time since that would have affected me.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Boytjie

[IRL_Joanie]

For some reason the quote is not working for me tonight. So I sure hope the copy and paste works.

 

QUOTE:

 

"Dashwood100 Thanks

I wish to thank you for pointing out “read the fine print”. I shall endeavor to understand the legalese that protects everyone but me.

 

I also have to agree with hrhdhd that HAL could program that “limit” into the booking system to prevent this unfortunate problem." UNQUOTE

 

I do not think the application you are talking about would work because not all excursions of this type or any other that has an age/weight/height limit would work because, not all excursions have the same restrictions.

 

To the OP, my questions to you are:

 

Did you check with the Vendor in Port to see if they themselves have the same age restriction that is listed in "Details" on the HAL Web Site for the excursion that you prepaid for?

 

And if you did check with them did you ask them why they would have this restriction and whether it was they themselves or only HAL mandating it?

 

Also, last question is, Did you look to see if there were any other similar excursions and what their age restrictions, if any, were?

 

I, myself had had an excursion vendor refuse me after I prepaid through HAL, due to my mobility issues. I've also had a best friend be refused at the port by the vendor due to her weigh.

 

Luckily for my friend and I, we were able to get all of our money back because the cancellation was not made by use, but by the vendor.

 

I would think that since the vendor contracted through HAL would have to reimburse you. Contacting HAL Services and/or Public Relations (for lack of anyone else I can think of) would be to your advantage.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Joanie

Edited January 6, 2016 by IRL_Joanie

[iancal]

We have rented cars often in Europe.

 

More than once we have seen, and taken note, of an age limit of 72 at a number of auto rental agencies. It is not as uncommon as one would think.

 

Have no idea where the EU is on this.

 

I would think that on any HAL excursion any such exception would be clearly indicated. Failure to heed the exception would be at the customer's expense.

Edited January 6, 2016 by iancal

[Culbles]

Thank you.

 

I wonder if there is anything the OP would do differently when next booking excursions for a cruise?

 

Maybe we all can learn a lesson without doing it the 'hard way'.

Oh yeah!! As I have already stated. :)

[Culbles]

For some reason the quote is not working for me tonight. So I sure hope the copy and paste works.

 

QUOTE:

 

"Dashwood100 Thanks

I wish to thank you for pointing out “read the fine print”. I shall endeavor to understand the legalese that protects everyone but me.

 

I also have to agree with hrhdhd that HAL could program that “limit” into the booking system to prevent this unfortunate problem." UNQUOTE

 

I do not think the application you are talking about would work because not all excursions of this type or any other that has an age/weight/height limit would work because, not all excursions have the same restrictions.

 

To the OP, my questions to you are:

 

Did you check with the Vendor in Port to see if they themselves have the same age restriction that is listed in "Details" on the HAL Web Site for the excursion that you prepaid for?

 

And if you did check with them did you ask them why they would have this restriction and whether it was they themselves or only HAL mandating it?

 

Also, last question is, Did you look to see if there were any other similar excursions and what their age restrictions, if any, were?

 

I, myself had had an excursion vendor refuse me after I prepaid through HAL, due to my mobility issues. I've also had a best friend be refused at the port by the vendor due to her weigh.

 

Luckily for my friend and I, we were able to get all of our money back because the cancellation was not made by use, but by the vendor.

 

I would think that since the vendor contracted through HAL would have to reimburse you. Contacting HAL Services and/or Public Relations (for lack of anyone else I can think of) would be to your advantage.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Joanie

Hopefully I can answer your questions here. This is one of the puzzling things about the excursion: I could dive with the dive shop IF I was NOT associated with HAL. I dove other places with excursions booked through HAL. ??? I am supposed to get a refund as stated by the dive shop, but I have not received it yet. Don't know why this was not figured into the final HAL bill. Bonaire does not have an age restriction for scuba diving. I could have dove with any dive vendor. If I had purchased the internet package I could have cancelled the excursion and booked with another vendor.

 

Another poster posted the complete excursion description which shows that a person would have to be superhuman to dive with that dive shop while aboard HAL. I did witness some other restrictions being overlooked at the dive shop: weight and medical.

 

Every trip is and experience. I enjoyed this one and returned home safe.

[Culbles]

Then there is the age discrimination against drivers under 25 (or is it 23) by car rental companies? Do they still do that? It has been a long time since that would have affected me.

Yes that still applies. But on the other hand we (USA) do not have an upper age limit for driving. And that is a privilege not a right. We (USA) do have medical reasons for pulling an older person's license but not age. Yes some foreign countries have lower and upper "age" restrictions.

[Culbles]

Not a pleasant surprise. We usually book independent dive shops.

Thank you for the heads-up.

I guess this falls under "Plan your dive and dive your plan".

We need to read the restrictions so we don't end up frustrated and missing out.

HAL is very clear as to the criteria to dive.

Notes:

This is a two-tank boat dive for certified divers. All participants must pay a mandatory US$10 Marine Park fee, which cannot be pre-paid; please ensure that you carry this cash payment with you to remit at the dive center. Wear your swimsuit; bring a towel. Waiver release form must be signed and medical conditions disclosed. Bring your C-card and dive log. Participants must hold a PADI open water scuba certification or BSAC Ocean Diver certification and have logged a dive in the past two years. Divers with a PADI Junior Open Water or a PADI Scuba Dive rating will not be accepted. You must take a refresher course if you have not been diving within the last 24 months. Minimum age is 15 years; maximum age is 65 years. Maximum weight is 265 lbs. Equipment includes two tanks, weights, BC, regulator, mask, fins and snorkel. Wetsuits can be rented at extra cost. Guests with ear infections/disorders, flu or cold symptoms, sinus problems, diabetes, heart condition, epilepsy, asthma, high blood pressure, walking disabilities, leg injuries, chest injuries and/or recovering from surgery or under prescription medication of any kind (except birth control), amputees, individuals with mobility limitations, and pregnant women are not allowed to participate.

 

According to this, my husband(Rescue diver w/ fire rescue, 1000+ dives), myself(certified in 1974(900+dives) and our 13 year old grandson(certified July 2015) could not dive with HAL, in Bonaire, because of age and recent surgery ( knee). Really need to read and be aware of rules for each destination.

Thank you for your post and letting everyone see the excursion description. I will open another can of worms here: "I" did not know about the restrictions until I saw the tickets on board after we departed. My wife booked the cruise and the excursions. She booked the diving excursions in Samana, D.R. and Curacao.

 

Had I known before hand we would not have booked the way we did. We have booked shore excursions both ways in the past; with and without the ship. As pointed out by other posters sometimes it works out sometimes not. I have not been left behind by the ship yet, but very close.

 

Each trip is and experience and hopefully we learn something from each one.

[Culbles]

Yep.

 

As we age we all like to feel that we are an exception and maybe we are.

 

However, the cruise lines that serve millions of passengers do not have any practical way to evaluate the health and physical capacity of each and every passenger. As such the limits must be established somewhere and that somewhere is the result of actuarial data used by their insurance companies.

Though if one looks at the data I am surprised that they don't have the cutoff at age 60 because age 60-64 is the peak for diving fatalities according to DAN fatality records. It remains high for over 65, but is slightly lower then the 60-64 age group.[/QUOTE]

 

I bolded your last paragraph, as only read it after I posted, but have suspected that all along..

 

Unfortunately, as we get older, sometimes we think we can do things that we did when we were younger.. I learned this after I had my hip replacement.. Still find myself trying to do things which I know are wrong for me to do.. It's a sad fact when we find out that we can't..:(:( Yes it's tough getting old!

I completely understand the mental and physical deterioration associated with aging. I do not suffer from either and as I pointed out I am in reasonably good health with no physical or medical handicaps and I take NO medications. I am just older than 65. I choose to stay as mobile and drug free as I can for as long as I can.

 

I hope you can understand and appreciate that and that every trip is an experience.

[Culbles]

Public Businesses throughout the world do in fact have carte blanch to post any rule they want & YOU do not have the right to go against their rules when you travel out of the United States!

 

This age limit was neither unjust or prejudicial.. It is a protection for the vendor & HAL..It may have been required by their insurance company.. Insurance companies have stats which tend to indicate that the older a person is, the more vulnerable they are to have medical issues when doing certain physical activities such as diving..

 

 

 

Completely agree Aquahound!

I would like to point out once again that I COULD dive with the dive shop if I had not booked through HAL. Also, I did dive other excursions booked through HAL. No one has been able to address this or explain it. Why can I dive with Dive Friends Bonaire unless I am with HAL? Why can I dive with HAL except when I dive with Dive Friends Bonaire?

 

It would be interesting to see someone address this point. Believe me I would feel better knowing why.

[iancal]

I am never certain why people would attempt to transpose (or make an assumption that they are the same) US laws, conventions, practices to those of other countries.

 

When you travel to another country is often a completely different 'ball game'.

The only other option is to stay home.

Edited January 6, 2016 by iancal

[Culbles]

I don't think scuba diving is a right either. ;)

It's not per say.

[Culbles]

I am never certain why people would attempt to transpose (or make an assumption that they are the same) US laws, conventions, practices to those of other countries.

 

When you travel to another country is often a completely different 'ball game'.

The only other option is to stay home.

If someone from Mexico comes up here and wants to use Pecos our businesses would laugh at them. Yet if WE go to Mexico WE expect them to take our dollars. I totally understand the USA mentality. Ever have a language barrier when traveling? They don't because they speak several languages.

 

I happen to enjoy traveling to other countries because they are different. If I wanted the SOS I would stay home.