More info on the water

[chengkp75]

Except they don't use evaporation but reverse osmosis. That gives you very pure water. Believe me I know.

 

The swelling comes from the salt in the food. Again, believe me when I tell you that I know about this. The amount of sodium in potable water is trivial compared to food.

 

Actually, most ships use both flash evaporation and reverse osmosis. And I'm not sure where your data is coming from, but flash distillation creates the most "pure" water there is. Reverse osmosis does not produce quite as "pure" water as the evaporators, but still within the range the EPA recommends for those on a restricted sodium diet.

 

Looking at rolloman's comment about bottled water listing ingredients, I found an interesting fact, that the FDA (which regulates bottled water, instead of the EPA which regulates water supplies) does not have a requirement for levels of bacterial contamination or benzene in bottled water, while the EPA does for municipal water.

 

As much as I respect the US Navy, he really isn't giving me much confidence in their maintenance procedures, as I've been making water onboard ships for 40 years, and have never seen evaporators produce water with more than 1ppm of sodium, which is below nearly every bottled water, which is municipal water run through a reverse osmosis unit.

[DrD]

Actually, most ships use both flash evaporation and reverse osmosis. And I'm not sure where your data is coming from, but flash distillation creates the most "pure" water there is. Reverse osmosis does not produce quite as "pure" water as the evaporators, but still within the range the EPA recommends for those on a restricted sodium diet.

 

Looking at rolloman's comment about bottled water listing ingredients, I found an interesting fact, that the FDA (which regulates bottled water, instead of the EPA which regulates water supplies) does not have a requirement for levels of bacterial contamination or benzene in bottled water, while the EPA does for municipal water.

 

As much as I respect the US Navy, he really isn't giving me much confidence in their maintenance procedures, as I've been making water onboard ships for 40 years, and have never seen evaporators produce water with more than 1ppm of sodium, which is below nearly every bottled water, which is municipal water run through a reverse osmosis unit.

 

I don't know about evaporators, but the RO we use in the medical field removes pretty much all the sodium, I'm pretty sure.

[Clarea]

I don't know this for sure.

 

However, water will taste frankly salty at a concentration of 200mg/liter. So to get 1 gram of sodium, you'd have to drink 5 liters of salty-tasting water....

I don't know the chemistry involved. However, is it possible for water to have a large amount of sodium and not taste salty? In other words, is it NaCl that tastes salty, but Na doesn't taste salty?

 

Or it could be like chengp75 says and it's something else entirely that causes water retention. All I know is that we pretty much eat the same food on the ship, cruise after cruise, and if my wife drinks bottled water, she does not get swollen ankles.

[LeesSummitCruiser1]

Pfft...what do you think they are going to say???? This happens to be one of the secrets they never want you to know...It takes a lot of work to clean those salinity cells....of course in a perfect world (the first few hours they are new) one could make such a statement. You think there is another reason why individuals on every cruise complain about swollen ankles? If you are onboard and you eat the food, enjoy the soup and or drink the water, you are accessible to high sodium count.

 

Another water treatment engineer and biochemist (MS&T 81) here. They also use Reverse osmosis water and in many ports they take on fresh water. While the majority of toilet and wash waters come from the flash evaporators, most of the drinking water is either reverse osmosis or on boarded water. It's not sodium that causes kidney stones it is either calcium for the calcium carbonate stones or more frequently uric acid from protean metabolism.

Edited March 3, 2016 by LeesSummitCruiser1

[LeesSummitCruiser1]

Actually, most ships use both flash evaporation and reverse osmosis. And I'm not sure where your data is coming from, but flash distillation creates the most "pure" water there is. Reverse osmosis does not produce quite as "pure" water as the evaporators, but still within the range the EPA recommends for those on a restricted sodium diet.

 

Looking at rolloman's comment about bottled water listing ingredients, I found an interesting fact, that the FDA (which regulates bottled water, instead of the EPA which regulates water supplies) does not have a requirement for levels of bacterial contamination or benzene in bottled water, while the EPA does for municipal water.

 

As much as I respect the US Navy, he really isn't giving me much confidence in their maintenance procedures, as I've been making water onboard ships for 40 years, and have never seen evaporators produce water with more than 1ppm of sodium, which is below nearly every bottled water, which is municipal water run through a reverse osmosis unit.

 

 

Wish I could like your post!!!!:)

[DrD]

I don't know the chemistry involved. However, is it possible for water to have a large amount of sodium and not taste salty? In other words, is it NaCl that tastes salty, but Na doesn't taste salty?

 

Or it could be like chengp75 says and it's something else entirely that causes water retention. All I know is that we pretty much eat the same food on the ship, cruise after cruise, and if my wife drinks bottled water, she does not get swollen ankles.

 

No, the use sodium as a marker since it only comes as NaCl. I've never hear of any other other sodium salt being found in water.

 

I'm not at all sure why if your wife drinks the bottled water she doesn't get swelling. I've always advised that it's the sodium in the food.

[Merion_Mom]

Wish I could like your post!!!!:)

 

I give you this: Use as much as you want: ;)

 

[tserface]

We get bottles of water as our C&A gift and then extra bottles are like $3.50 each so, for us, it's not worth it to pack a bunch on. I've seen people bringing on whole cases, but either you have to carry it around until your room is done or put a luggage tag on it and hope it makes it to your room.

 

Seems like a lot of trouble to save a few $$$.

 

Tom

[rolloman]

I'm not at all sure why if your wife drinks the bottled water she doesn't get swelling. I've always advised that it's the sodium in the food.

 

The food is made with the water onboard. Example (soups). The evidence speaks for itself. In a perfect scenario, the water desalination systems onboard do the job. However, perfect scenario's do not always exist.

 

Example, you eat in the buffet, servers are here and there removing trays and disinfecting the table prior to you sitting down to eat. Then in a not so perfect scenario, you see an empty table, grab it, sit down to eat while not knowing a person with NORO just left the very same yet to be cleaned table. While the protocol is in place to have a clean table each and every time, often due to workload, circumstance and fill in the blank....it does not happen.

 

Now back to the water onboard, a few of you can dispute it all you want, the proof is in the sheer amount of complaints from passengers.

[chengkp75]

Another water treatment engineer and biochemist (MS&T 81) here. They also use Reverse osmosis water and in many ports they take on fresh water. While the majority of toilet and wash waters come from the flash evaporators, most of the drinking water is either reverse osmosis or on boarded water. It's not sodium that causes kidney stones it is either calcium for the calcium carbonate stones or more frequently uric acid from protean metabolism.

 

Sorry, but this is another misconception. Just like in your house, where the same water piping carries the same water to both your bathrooms and kitchen, the ship circulates the exact same water to all users: toilets, sinks, showers, hot tubs, galleys, dishwashers, laundry, you name it. The water from the various sources is co-mingled in the storage tanks. The only time segregation of water happens due to its source is when water is taken onboard from shore. This water must be kept separated from other water, and not used onboard until the coliform bacteria tests are completed, which take 18-24 hours.

[rolloman]

It's not sodium that causes kidney stones it is either calcium for the calcium carbonate stones or more frequently uric acid from protean metabolism.

 

The medical world disagrees.

 

http://www.kidneystoners.org/information/salt-intake-and-kidney-stones/

[chengkp75]

I don't know about evaporators, but the RO we use in the medical field removes pretty much all the sodium, I'm pretty sure.

 

When you start with fresh water that has a relatively low sodium or other mineral content, the low pressure reverse osmosis units used shoreside will remove nearly all sodium content, say 99% for argument's sake. Now, when you take sea water, with a higher sodium content, that 99% reduction still leaves a higher sodium content. In order to achieve the 10-20ppm sea salt content that is allowable from marine reverse osmosis units, they have to use extreme amounts of electricity to pump the water through the membrane at 3000-5000 psi, or more than 50 times the municipal pressure used in most home or shore based reverse osmosis units.

[chengkp75]

I don't know the chemistry involved. However, is it possible for water to have a large amount of sodium and not taste salty? In other words, is it NaCl that tastes salty, but Na doesn't taste salty?

 

Or it could be like chengp75 says and it's something else entirely that causes water retention. All I know is that we pretty much eat the same food on the ship, cruise after cruise, and if my wife drinks bottled water, she does not get swollen ankles.

 

No, the use sodium as a marker since it only comes as NaCl. I've never hear of any other other sodium salt being found in water.

 

I'm not at all sure why if your wife drinks the bottled water she doesn't get swelling. I've always advised that it's the sodium in the food.

 

In water, you don't find NaCl, you only find it's ions, Na+ and Cl-, which form when the salt dissolves. And this is how a reverse osmosis unit works; the membrane has pores that are sized to a water molecule, which is smaller than either the sodium or the chlorine atoms, so the water passes through to the "permeate" or fresh water side and the sodium and chlorine remain on the "concentrate" side and is pumped overboard.

[Clarea]

In water, you don't find NaCl, you only find it's ions, Na+ and Cl-, which form when the salt dissolves. And this is how a reverse osmosis unit works; the membrane has pores that are sized to a water molecule, which is smaller than either the sodium or the chlorine atoms, so the water passes through to the "permeate" or fresh water side and the sodium and chlorine remain on the "concentrate" side and is pumped overboard.

One of my friends is a water treatment engineer (land based, no ship experience) and he said that the membranes can get old and not do the job as effectively. Do you think this could apply to ship based reverse osmosis?

[chengkp75]

One of my friends is a water treatment engineer (land based, no ship experience) and he said that the membranes can get old and not do the job as effectively. Do you think this could apply to ship based reverse osmosis?

 

Yes, but the unit is equipped with a salinity meter, and when the permeate reaches the set level (10-20ppm usually), the permeate is diverted overboard and not to the tanks, and an alarm is sounded in the control room, signalling that maintenance is required.

[Clarea]

Yes, but the unit is equipped with a salinity meter, and when the permeate reaches the set level (10-20ppm usually), the permeate is diverted overboard and not to the tanks, and an alarm is sounded in the control room, signalling that maintenance is required.

Thanks Chief.

[mistshar]

If you read the rules, they say that you are not allowed to bring it on. However in the next sentence, I believe, it says if you do bring it on it is subject to be searched to make sure it is not alcohol. So it is contradictory.

 

We took some Dr. Pepper onboard on our last cruise. There was no problem. You never really know what they will do.

 

I planned to take Dr. Pepper on our next cruise in April but found out I have diabetes. So I will probably carry some water and hope they let me carry it on.

[rolloman]

One of my friends is a water treatment engineer (land based, no ship experience) and he said that the membranes can get old and not do the job as effectively. Do you think this could apply to ship based reverse osmosis?

 

Bob,

Remember the thread recently where a young lady was horrified after she took a shower in her cabin and saw that her hair had turned green? This example should answer your question.

 

Like a true engineer Cheng is overly positive regarding how things are supposed to work, vast knowledge and appreciated but from one of the guys who actually has worked on the stuff...mechanical, electrical, electronic and even plumbing periodically can and DO go wrong. If one is on a strict diet, it is best to plan and proceed with minimum amount of risk. Shipboard water has too many points of failure compared to bringing water which has been capped and certified. Once I was on a ship which accidentally plumbed unfiltered Delaware river water into our water system. Each sailor, including myself, had to receive an immediate Hepatitis gamma globin shot.

 

I take these water threads very seriously. It is best to error on the side of caution. Someone like yourself who cruisers have come to respect your opinion, needs to make sure you have all the facts before offering advice on a subject.

[Clarea]

Bob,

Remember the thread recently where a young lady was horrified after she took a shower in her cabin and saw that her hair had turned green? This example should answer your question.

 

Like a true engineer Cheng is overly positive regarding how things are supposed to work, vast knowledge and appreciated but from one of the guys who actually has worked on the stuff...mechanical, electrical, electronic and even plumbing periodically can and DO go wrong. If one is on a strict diet, it is best to plan and proceed with minimum amount of risk. Shipboard water has too many points of failure compared to bringing water which has been capped and certified. Once I was on a ship which accidentally plumbed unfiltered Delaware river water into our water system. Each sailor, including myself, had to receive an immediate Hepatitis gamma globin shot.

 

I take these water threads very seriously. It is best to error on the side of caution. Someone like yourself who cruisers have come to respect your opinion, needs to make sure you have all the facts before offering advice on a subject.

Thank-you, and I do appreciate all the information that's been offered here.

[chengkp75]

Bob,

Remember the thread recently where a young lady was horrified after she took a shower in her cabin and saw that her hair had turned green? This example should answer your question.

 

Like a true engineer Cheng is overly positive regarding how things are supposed to work, vast knowledge and appreciated but from one of the guys who actually has worked on the stuff...mechanical, electrical, electronic and even plumbing periodically can and DO go wrong. If one is on a strict diet, it is best to plan and proceed with minimum amount of risk. Shipboard water has too many points of failure compared to bringing water which has been capped and certified. Once I was on a ship which accidentally plumbed unfiltered Delaware river water into our water system. Each sailor, including myself, had to receive an immediate Hepatitis gamma globin shot.

 

I take these water threads very seriously. It is best to error on the side of caution. Someone like yourself who cruisers have come to respect your opinion, needs to make sure you have all the facts before offering advice on a subject.

 

As any operating engineer will agree, things can and do go wrong. What interests me is your faith that the same mechanical and electrical things cannot go wrong with bottled water facilities, just because they are "capped and certified".

 

Here is a link to a list of FDA recalls of bottled water up to 2006:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjOkfWi86XLAhWiw4MKHfDlAGAQFghVMAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpacinst.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F02%2Fbottled_water_recalls_summary_table3.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHaOBeGnhbh2WyKUOito4wD2ZI5SA

 

And more recently:

 

2008 Nestle recalled water because of contamination with food grade cleaning compound

 

2011 Arkansas recalled Mountain Pure water because of contamination with mold.

 

And as recently as last June, Niagara recalled water in California due to e. coli contamination.

 

Here is the CDC's take on bottled water, including a list of GI outbreaks caused by bottled water:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/bottled/index.html

 

And somewhat of a repeat of the CDC link, this EPA link discusses bottled water, and I find the paragraph on "certification" to be interesting:

 

http://archive.epa.gov/region03/dclead/web/pdf/fs_healthseries_bottledwater.pdf

 

Neither the EPA or FDA "certify" bottled water, and some brands use a "certification" from the BWIA, the industry group, that does not use FDA guidelines for testing or contaminant levels.

 

So, lets put all the facts out there and let the public decide.

 

I, personally, place my faith in the daily, weekly, and monthly testing of ship's water on cruise ships and the reporting and record keeping required by the USPH.

[Cabansail]

Have not had experience with evaporators but quite a lot with Reverse Osmosis.

 

The quality of the RO Product will depend on your membranes and how they are treated. Most membranes can be damaged by chlorine and will suffer if the water is hard. So the supply water will usually be passed through water softeners and carbon filters first.

 

The use of the product will determine the choice of membrane. We were using it for medical purposes and so it had to be very high quality. If it's for general domestic use the standards are lower. The output should be monitored for conductivity and then regular assays taken. Breakdowns can occur and problems arise.

 

To say that RO Water is pure is like saying that cars go fast. It may be true but there is a difference between a Beetle and a Ferrari.

[TexCruise371]

I called RCCL today and asked if I can bring some bottles of water on board. The rep told me, No, the only drinks I can bring is wine and champagne." I told him I dont drink and all I want is water. He said, "you asked me and I told you what you can bring."

 

So all the recent cruisers, can you give your input. I DO NOT want to fill up at the buffet area, I want water for my cabin in bottles.

 

Thank you

We have carried on water with no problem. Friends with us on Serenade two weeks ago slapped a luggage tag on a case of water and it was delivered to their room.

 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if they say no.

[searoses]

Bottled worked for me again this year so I am a believer...taped a business size envelope with cabin number on the plastic wrapping and a 12 pk of coke zero....they both made it to my cabin...I don't mind splurging on vacation but the price of water onboard is ridiculous...

[orkaren]

Last year I emailed the special needs department and asked if I could bring bottled water onboard for medical reasons. They sent me a reply that I could bring a "reasonable" amount. I bought a case of water, put a luggage tag on it, and gave it to the porter. It got to our room with the luggage. I did bring a copy of the email just in case, but had no problems.

[rolloman]

As any operating engineer will agree, things can and do go wrong. What interests me is your faith that the same mechanical and electrical things cannot go wrong with bottled water facilities, just because they are "capped and certified".

 

So, lets put all the facts out there and let the public decide.

 

I, personally, place my faith in the daily, weekly, and monthly testing of ship's water on cruise ships and the reporting and record keeping required by the USPH.

 

I have never had a drink out of bottle of water which made my hair turn green. I have never had a drink of bottled water which required me to have a hepatitis shot. I also no longer have kidney stones after switching to bottled water and bringing my sodium intake to the FDA suggested standards. Therefore I personally have more faith in the bottled water. By the way, of which I drink a minimum of 5 a day.

Edited March 4, 2016 by rolloman