Jones Act?

[newcruisers2]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

[tfabrizio]

I work in the merchant marine and I can fill you in on the Jones Act. It is a cabotage law that is similar to ones found in other countries. A cabotage law protects the domestic maritime shipping of a particular country and keeps foreign companies and countries from transporting goods and people within a countries' borders. It is very similar to how you have to be a US citizen to hold a job within the United States.

 

Basically, the Jones Act states that a foreign ship may call upon a US port, but must have a destination that is outside of the United States. A foreign ship can not simply transport people or cargo from one US port to another.

 

I work on a Jones Act oil tanker that is USA flagged, but the law extends to passenger ships, bulk carriers (i.e. Salt, grain), car carriers, etc.

[VideoTech]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

 

No one here that I know if is a maritime lawyer; I would suggest that you contact NCL directly and ask.

 

The "Jones Act" refers to restrictions on foreign flagged vessels that prevents them from carrying goods or passengers between US ports. Thus, the foreign flagged cruise ships that leave from and return to U.S. ports must make an intermediate stop in a foreign port - in this case, Victoria for the Pearl.

 

My layman's interpretation: Since presumably you are Canadian nationals, leaving from Vancouver and returning to Victoria, I wouldn't see why you couldn't do it. NCL, of course would need to know, since you would not be getting back on board after the Victoria stop. However, we see cruise ship employees getting on and off in every port, foreign and U.S., and while you're not a cruise ship employee, I doubt that the immigration laws are any different for them then they would be for you.

Edited March 6, 2016 by VideoTech

[njhorseman]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

 

First, tell your travel agent it's not the Jones Act, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) that governs cruise passengers. The Jones Act applies to cargo, not people.

 

Second, the PVSA applies to cruise passengers that embark and disembark in the US. Your cruise starts in Canada and you're asking to disembark in Canada, so the PVSA is inapplicable. There could be a Canadian law that prohibits what you're asking to do, but the PVSA, not to mention the Jones Act, don't. Also the cruise line may not want to allow you to do it as a matter of internal company policy, not law.

 

If your travel agent got this information from the cruise line they spoke to someone who doesn't have a clue, which is rather common. This should be bounced upstairs to someone responsible for compliance. You might find someone there who actually understands the law.

Edited March 6, 2016 by njhorseman

[njhorseman]

I work in the merchant marine and I can fill you in on the Jones Act. It is a cabotage law that is similar to ones found in other countries. A cabotage law protects the domestic maritime shipping of a particular country and keeps foreign companies and countries from transporting goods and people within a countries' borders. It is very similar to how you have to be a US citizen to hold a job within the United States.

 

Basically, the Jones Act states that a foreign ship may call upon a US port, but must have a destination that is outside of the United States. A foreign ship can not simply transport people or cargo from one US port to another.

 

I work on a Jones Act oil tanker that is USA flagged, but the law extends to passenger ships, bulk carriers (i.e. Salt, grain), car carriers, etc.

 

Nope...the Jones Act governs cargo. The Passenger Vessel Services Act, which is much older than the Jones Act, governs the transportation of passengers.

 

By the way, you don't have to be a US citizen to work in the US. You can have a visa that permits you to be employed here or you can be a lawful permanent resident (someone who holds what is called a "green card").

Edited March 6, 2016 by njhorseman

[tfabrizio]

Nope...the Jones Act governs cargo. The Passenger Vessel Services Act, which is much older than the Jones Act, governs the transportation of passengers.

 

By the way, you don't have to be a US citizen to work in the US. You can have a visa that permits you to be employed here or you can be a lawful permanent resident (someone who holds what is called a "green card").

 

 

 

Quite true about the green card. I was talking about permanent employment.

[njhorseman]

No one here that I know if is a maritime lawyer; I would suggest that you contact NCL directly and ask.

 

The "Jones Act" refers to restrictions on foreign flagged vessels that prevents them from carrying goods or passengers between US ports. Thus, the foreign flagged cruise ships that leave from and return to U.S. ports must make an intermediate stop in a foreign port - in this case, Victoria for the Pearl.

 

My layman's interpretation: Since presumably you are Canadian nationals, leaving from Vancouver and returning to Victoria, I wouldn't see why you couldn't do it. NCL, of course would need to know, since you would not be getting back on board after the Victoria stop. However, we see cruise ship employees getting on and off in every port, foreign and U.S., and while you're not a cruise ship employee, I doubt that the immigration laws are any different for them then they would be for you.

 

The passengers' nationality is irrelevant. The PVSA (not the Jones Act) governs the transportation of any passenger regardless of nationality.

 

The OP's cruise starts in Canada (Vancouver) which immediately means the PVSA is inapplicable. The answer the OP has received to their request is total nonsense.

Edited March 6, 2016 by njhorseman

[triptolemus]

The Canadian equivalent of the Jones Act is the Coasting Trade Act.

 

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/acf-acfs-menu-2215.htm

 

http://canlii.ca/t/51w32

 

(1) Subject to subsections (2) to (5), no foreign ship or non-duty paid ship shall, except under and in accordance with a licence, engage in the coasting trade.

 

“coasting trade” means

 

(a) the carriage of goods by ship, or by ship and any other mode of transport, from one place in Canada or above the continental shelf of Canada to any other place in Canada or above the continental shelf of Canada, either directly or by way of a place outside Canada, but, with respect to waters above the continental shelf of Canada, includes the carriage of goods only in relation to the exploration, exploitation or transportation of the mineral or non-living natural resources of the continental shelf of Canada,

 

(b) subject to paragraph ©, the carriage of passengers by ship from any place in Canada situated on a lake or river to the same place, or to any other place in Canada, either directly or by way of a place outside Canada,

 

© the carriage of passengers by ship from any place situated on the St. Lawrence River northeast of the Saint Lambert lock or on the Fraser River west of the Mission Bridge

(i) to the same place, without any call at any port outside Canada, other than one or more technical or emergency calls, or

(ii) to any other place in Canada, other than as an in-transit call, either directly or by way of a place outside Canada,

 

(d) the carriage of passengers by ship from any place in Canada other than from a place to which paragraph (b) or © applies

(i) to the same place, without any call at any port outside Canada, other than one or more technical or emergency calls, or

(ii) to any other place in Canada, other than as an in-transit call, either directly or by way of a place outside Canada,

 

(e) the carriage of passengers by ship

(i) from any place in Canada to any place above the continental shelf of Canada,

(ii) from any place above the continental shelf of Canada to any place in Canada, or

(iii) from any place above the continental shelf of Canada to the same place or to any other place above the continental shelf of Canada

where the carriage of the passengers is in relation to the exploration, exploitation or transportation of the mineral or non-living natural resources of the continental shelf of Canada, and

 

(f) the engaging, by ship, in any other marine activity of a commercial nature in Canadian waters and, with respect to waters above the continental shelf of Canada, in such other marine activities of a commercial nature that are in relation to the exploration, exploitation or transportation of the mineral or non-living natural resources of the continental shelf of Canada;

Edited March 6, 2016 by triptolemus

[njhorseman]

Quite true about the green card. I was talking about permanent employment.

 

Green card holders as lawful permanent residents. As long as you don't let LPR status lapse or do something that would cause the government to revoke your green card you can be permanently employed.

[woodz]

What would happen if they just rolled off with their luggage in Victoria? Just curious because people who become ill or have an emergency leave mid cruise.

[chengkp75]

What would happen if they just rolled off with their luggage in Victoria? Just curious because people who become ill or have an emergency leave mid cruise.

 

Even if a person dies on the cruise, the cruise line is fined for violation of the PVSA, until they can submit a death certificate, and they will pass the fine to the family, and make the family submit the paperwork for the exemption. This applies to illnesses as well. The PVSA does not fine the passenger, instead it fines the cruise line, but the ticket contract gives the cruise line permission to pass the fine to you. Exemptions are also made for weather or mechanical problems to the ship's itinerary, as well as illness and death.

 

Apparently, the Canadian Coasting Trade Act is much more stringent than the PVSA (for those who feel the PVSA is unfair), with a maximum fine of $50,000 for a single violation, and each day of violation is considered a separate violation (i.e. $50,000/day)

[VideoTech]

What would happen if they just rolled off with their luggage in Victoria? Just curious because people who become ill or have an emergency leave mid cruise.

 

At the very least, it would cause a lot of delay and confusion for the cruise line. The computer system (by scanning key cards as you leave) knows who is off the ship. If that passenger doesn't scan back onto the ship before departure...

 

Not recommended.

[casofilia]

d) the carriage of passengers by ship from any place in Canada other than from a place to which paragraph (b) or © applies

(i) to the same place, without any call at any port outside Canada, other than one or more technical or emergency calls, or

(ii) to any other place in Canada, other than as an in-transit call, either directly or by way of a place outside Canada,

 

Apparently, the Canadian Coasting Trade Act is much more stringent than the PVSA (for those who feel the PVSA is unfair), with a maximum fine of $50,000 for a single violation, and each day of violation is considered a separate violation (i.e. $50,000/day)

 

These two statements from earlier answers look to cover the situation.

 

NCL would be in breach and fined heavily.

Then I feel certain that they WOULD recover the fine from the perpetrators.

 

They will also be in strife with actual port authorities and security as their passenger manifests would be incorrect.

 

Don't do it!! But I would get, in writing, answers from NCL confirming it either way.

 

Mike

[daffodiliaz]

We cruised that itinerary in 2013 and saw a few people taking luggage off in Victoria an ncan only assume they were disembarking. I just remember the log jam in the stairwells trying to get of the ship for that short port stop and those few people with their luggage.

[triptolemus]

We cruised that itinerary in 2013 and saw a few people taking luggage off in Victoria an ncan only assume they were disembarking. I just remember the log jam in the stairwells trying to get of the ship for that short port stop and those few people with their luggage.

 

If your cruise originated in Seattle, than neither the PVSA nor the Canadian Costal Trading Act would apply. They could legally be allowed to disembark there.

 

Edit: I see you said it was the same itinerary.

Edited March 6, 2016 by triptolemus

[thinfool]

What would happen if they just rolled off with their luggage in Victoria? Just curious because people who become ill or have an emergency leave mid cruise.

 

Unless special arrangements for Canadian immigration/customs were in place, they would be in Canada illegally. Not a good idea.

 

However, as other posters have stated, the Jones Act does not apply and neither does the PVSA.

 

Shame on the cruise lines for not training their people to accurately inform their customers.

[triptolemus]

Unless special arrangements for Canadian immigration/customs were in place, they would be in Canada illegally.

 

One could reasonably conclude that because they live in Victoria, they would not be in Canada illegally.

[chengkp75]

We cruised that itinerary in 2013 and saw a few people taking luggage off in Victoria an ncan only assume they were disembarking. I just remember the log jam in the stairwells trying to get of the ship for that short port stop and those few people with their luggage.

 

Very likely they were Canadian citizens and had their cars or people meeting them in Victoria to get the luggage. They then continued on to Seattle, and took the ferry, rail, or bus back to Victoria.

[Cuizer2]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

 

Your travel agent is wrong. The Jones Act has nothing to do with this. The correct Act is the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act). Nonetheless, the PVSA does not apply to cruises that begin or end in a foreign country.

 

That said, Canada may have a rule that applies, but the USA does not.

[rvsullivan]

Unless special arrangements for Canadian immigration/customs were in place, they would be in Canada illegally. Not a good idea.

 

However, as other posters have stated, the Jones Act does not apply and neither does the PVSA.

 

Shame on the cruise lines for not training their people to accurately inform their customers.

 

Did you read the OP's post? They said their Travel Agent gave them the information. Perhaps, shame on a travel agent that does not accurately inform their customers??;)

[triptolemus]

Your travel agent is wrong. The Jones Act has nothing to do with this. The correct Act is the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act). Nonetheless, the PVSA does not apply to cruises that begin or end in a foreign country.

 

That said, Canada may have a rule that applies, but the USA does not.

 

I know it's hard, but try reading at least some of the thread before responding.

[Cuizer2]

I know it's hard, but try reading at least some of the thread before responding.

 

What is your point? I know the information I provided is correct.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Cuizer2

[zqvol]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

 

 

Neither the Jones Act nor the PVSA, both of which are US maritime regulations, have any application in your case. You are trying to cruise between two Canadian ports. You need to check Canadian laws, and see if their is something similar.

 

The real truth of the matter is that it is a lot of trouble for NCL to let you leave early so it is easier for them to say no.

Edited March 7, 2016 by zqvol

[hawkeyetlse]

Shame on the cruise lines for not training their people to accurately inform their customers.

The OP said it was their TA, not the cruise line. The OP should contact NCL directly, if as AWENINAZ reported, passengers on this itinerary have been allowed to disembark in Victoria in the relatively recent past.

Apparently, the Canadian Coasting Trade Act is much more stringent than the PVSA (for those who feel the PVSA is unfair), with a maximum fine of $50,000 for a single violation, and each day of violation is considered a separate violation (i.e. $50,000/day)

On the other hand, it appears to be relatively easy for foreign vessels to obtain a Coasting Trade license in Canada, as long as there is no Canadian vessel capable of providing an equivalent service. So it could be (I have no idea) that NCL's ships operating in Canada are licensed to carry passengers between Canadian ports.

[zqvol]

The Canadian equivalent of the Jones Act is the Coasting Trade Act.

 

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/acf-acfs-menu-2215.htm

 

http://canlii.ca/t/51w32

 

 

The posted quote is a defintional portion of a statute and standing alone is meaningless. Why did you try to play attorney? All you did was add to the confusion and provided no help at all.