Jones Act?

[triptolemus]

The posted quote is a defintional portion of a statute and standing alone is meaningless. Why did you try to play attorney? All you did was add to the confusion and provided no help at all.

 

Wrong, as usual. And I'm not sure what a "defintional" is.

 

13. (1) Where a ship contravenes subsection 3(1) [the quoted portion in question], the ship is guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty thousand dollars.

 

But this bit here:

 

3. (1) Subject to subsections (2) to (5), no foreign ship or non-duty paid ship shall, except under and in accordance with a licence, engage in the coasting trade.

 

 

Is not "defintional" (again, whatever that means).

 

Guess you need things spelled out for you pretty clearly.

 

My posting the relevant regulation was the only help I was looking to provide and in no way means I was playing attorney. Did you see me offer an opinion on the matter?

Edited March 7, 2016 by triptolemus

[chengkp75]

The OP said it was their TA, not the cruise line. The OP should contact NCL directly, if as AWENINAZ reported, passengers on this itinerary have been allowed to disembark in Victoria in the relatively recent past.

On the other hand, it appears to be relatively easy for foreign vessels to obtain a Coasting Trade license in Canada, as long as there is no Canadian vessel capable of providing an equivalent service. So it could be (I have no idea) that NCL's ships operating in Canada are licensed to carry passengers between Canadian ports.

 

BC Ferries offers daily service from Victoria to Vancouver and back, so regardless of where the ship has gone (to US Alaska), the trip is in essence Vancouver to Victoria, and there are Canadian vessels offering this service.

[don't-use-real-name]

It would seem that Jones PVSA and a host of other garbledegook rules and

regs need to be dumped tea party style. As I understand it there is only

1 ship flagged in USA service the POA - as for Canada I don't know.

So if we (USA) don't have any ships for passenger carriage the big deal is

about these archaic ancient times transportation road blocks favoring

USA flag ships which there is only one ! One ship in Hawaiian waters of USA

registry is going to dictate the rest of the USA cruising maritime business !

Give - me - a - break !

Comments specifically about CRUISE Ships and not Cargo Ships !

Where are the USA ships that need protection ?

This would be different if we had ships and USA employee workers !

And at this point what incentives are being shown to built such ships

and employ USA workers and is there any profit in it ?

The US United States is the only feasible realistic ghost of an opportunity

to pursue this further ! And she no doubt will be scrapped like the politicians

and archaic rules should be in not updating the Acts and Rules !

One should be able to get on and off cruise ships like inter-country travel in

Europe paying the tariff (fare) that the cruise ship line determines to make

a business profit out of this.

There are Acts Rules & Regulations and then there are DAMN Acts Rules & Regs !

[hawkeyetlse]

BC Ferries offers daily service from Victoria to Vancouver and back, so regardless of where the ship has gone (to US Alaska), the trip is in essence Vancouver to Victoria, and there are Canadian vessels offering this service.

Good point :) But couldn't they argue something about the level of service and number of passengers? I see that there have been decisions like that in the past.

 

But since they don't actually offer any itineraries that require a Coasting Trade license, maybe they wouldn't bother getting one just so a few passengers can disembark (or be disembarked ;)) early. Anyway, enough speculation from me, someone who knows where to look can probably find out once and for all if NCL holds any such licenses.

[GeezerCouple]

Even if a person dies on the cruise, the cruise line is fined for violation of the PVSA, until they can submit a death certificate, and they will pass the fine to the family, and make the family submit the paperwork for the exemption. This applies to illnesses as well. The PVSA does not fine the passenger, instead it fines the cruise line, but the ticket contract gives the cruise line permission to pass the fine to you. Exemptions are also made for weather or mechanical problems to the ship's itinerary, as well as illness and death.

 

Apparently, the Canadian Coasting Trade Act is much more stringent than the PVSA (for those who feel the PVSA is unfair), with a maximum fine of $50,000 for a single violation, and each day of violation is considered a separate violation (i.e. $50,000/day)

 

Chengkp75:

 

A related question about the Pride Of America, sailing among Hawaii ports only (all within the USA).

This is an American flagged ship now, correct?

It therefore has many special restrictions/rules about crew, etc., for this reason.

 

So why would the PVSA restrict having this particular ship carry passengers between two US ports (e.g., getting on the ship in HNL, but disembarking prior to the return to HNL)?

 

This has confused us for some time, but ONLY with respect to the POA, because it is flagged differently from the other ships.

 

Many thanks.

[hawkeyetlse]

Anyway, enough speculation from me, someone who knows where to look can probably find out once and for all if NCL holds any such licenses.

I checked myself, the only decision I found involving NCL was when they applied for a license to use Norwegian Star as a floating hotel during the Vancouver Olympics in 2010 (which never ended up happening).

 

So there must be some other explanation for the passengers that AWENINAZ saw disembarking in Victoria on their ex-Vancouver cruise. I hope it didn't cost anyone $50,000 (Canadian :p)

[j-9]

NCL offers Vancouver round trip Alaska itineraries. I don't see why a Vancouver to Victoria would be any different...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

[RobTheGob]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

 

We're on the Pearl in May and have been (according to our TA) approved for disembarkation in Victoria. The NCL approval was done in Nov, even before we made the deposit.

[Demonyte]

NCL offers Vancouver round trip Alaska itineraries. I don't see why a Vancouver to Victoria would be any different...

 

 

Round trip is not transporting people from point A to B, it's only departing A and coming back to the same place - essentially taking people to a sightseeing.

 

The legal limitations behind this (both in US and in Canada) have been throughly explained already in this thread.

[barnacle_boy]

It would seem that Jones PVSA and a host of other garbledegook rules and

regs need to be dumped tea party style. As I understand it there is only

1 ship flagged in USA service the POA - as for Canada I don't know.

So if we (USA) don't have any ships for passenger carriage the big deal is

about these archaic ancient times transportation road blocks favoring

USA flag ships which there is only one ! One ship in Hawaiian waters of USA

registry is going to dictate the rest of the USA cruising maritime business !

Give - me - a - break !

Comments specifically about CRUISE Ships and not Cargo Ships !

Where are the USA ships that need protection ?

This would be different if we had ships and USA employee workers !

And at this point what incentives are being shown to built such ships

and employ USA workers and is there any profit in it ?

The US United States is the only feasible realistic ghost of an opportunity

to pursue this further ! And she no doubt will be scrapped like the politicians

and archaic rules should be in not updating the Acts and Rules !

One should be able to get on and off cruise ships like inter-country travel in

Europe paying the tariff (fare) that the cruise ship line determines to make

a business profit out of this.

There are Acts Rules & Regulations and then there are DAMN Acts Rules & Regs !

 

You'd have better luck holding a lightning rod in an open field than overturning the Jones Act or PVSA. It's a proven political career killer. Senator Inouye's exemptions for Pride of America were a once-in-a-lifetime type of deal, and only he was able to get away with it because of the tremendous political power he wielded.

 

PVSA sustains a very lucrative Hawaii cruise market that would otherwise be almost completely staffed by foreign crew. If you knew anything about the history behind Project America, you would know that the US government offered a ton of incentives for US flagged cruise ship construction.

[don't-use-real-name]

You'd have better luck holding a lightning rod in an open field than overturning the Jones Act or PVSA. It's a proven political career killer. Senator Inouye's exemptions for Pride of America were a once-in-a-lifetime type of deal, and only he was able to get away with it because of the tremendous political power he wielded.

 

PVSA sustains a very lucrative Hawaii cruise market that would otherwise be almost completely staffed by foreign crew. If you knew anything about the history behind Project America, you would know that the US government offered a ton of incentives for US flagged cruise ship construction.

 

"Great" just great - and how is that working out for us in the USA ?

Any new ships built ?

Any USA citizens employed on anything that floats other than Mississippi river boats and the POA ?

Board a foreign flag cruise ship and notice the name plates on the personnel

90 + % come from distant foreign countries. Speaking about foreign flag

cruise ships - that is all there is except for NCLs POA.

All it does is putt putt around the Hawaiian Islands while other cruise lines

transit the waters between the islands and the mainland with the requisite

stop at Ensenda, Mexico just long enough to drop the anchor and haul it back

on board.

And what was once the Pride of America - no not the NCL POA but the

US United States sits rusting away with little or no interest other than as

scrap metal. Oh I wished that would have been my transport to Europe

instead of the MSTS Darby and Buckner.

So other than the Navy the USA does not put anything into its ships and with

that note why bother to regulate and with the new Panama Canal things are

just going to get worse. We have regulated ourselves out of business

Disgusting what the USA has done to itself ! Ships that should have been

constructed in the USA were towed to Germany to be finished and the USA

shipyard went bankrupt wasting our tax dollars.

SOURCE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_America

So much for well protected intentions !

[Demonyte]

Ingalls Shipbuilding (the original builder of Project America) has never went bankrupt nor wasted your tax dollars doing so.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingalls_Shipbuilding

[shadowmeboy]

My overall reaction to this thread is to just shake my head. Do we really need to argue over obscure laws? Really folks. This is a cruise forum and not a legal journal.

 

I hope for the OP's sake they got the information they were seeking. If I was the OP, I would work with my TA to get NCL's decision on leaving early in writing and have them explain why in simple language.

[chengkp75]

Chengkp75:

 

A related question about the Pride Of America, sailing among Hawaii ports only (all within the USA).

This is an American flagged ship now, correct?

It therefore has many special restrictions/rules about crew, etc., for this reason.

 

So why would the PVSA restrict having this particular ship carry passengers between two US ports (e.g., getting on the ship in HNL, but disembarking prior to the return to HNL)?

 

This has confused us for some time, but ONLY with respect to the POA, because it is flagged differently from the other ships.

 

Many thanks.

 

As far as I know, there is no legal reason you cannot get off the POA at a different Hawaiian port than you started in. In fact, there is no CBP documentation or inspection requirements, since the cruise is completely "intra-state". It may just be NCL's requirement, if it exists.

 

And, the POA is not a true PVSA vessel, it is an exemption. Because she was not completely built in the US, she cannot trade unrestrictedly in the PVSA trade. She is limited to Hawaii only, with the exception of when going to or from a shipyard.

[mugtech]

Seattle is a great place to be in May

[chengkp75]

It would seem that Jones PVSA and a host of other garbledegook rules and

regs need to be dumped tea party style. As I understand it there is only

1 ship flagged in USA service the POA - as for Canada I don't know.

So if we (USA) don't have any ships for passenger carriage the big deal is

about these archaic ancient times transportation road blocks favoring

USA flag ships which there is only one ! One ship in Hawaiian waters of USA

registry is going to dictate the rest of the USA cruising maritime business !

Give - me - a - break !

Comments specifically about CRUISE Ships and not Cargo Ships !

Where are the USA ships that need protection ?

This would be different if we had ships and USA employee workers !

And at this point what incentives are being shown to built such ships

and employ USA workers and is there any profit in it ?

The US United States is the only feasible realistic ghost of an opportunity

to pursue this further ! And she no doubt will be scrapped like the politicians

and archaic rules should be in not updating the Acts and Rules !

One should be able to get on and off cruise ships like inter-country travel in

Europe paying the tariff (fare) that the cruise ship line determines to make

a business profit out of this.

There are Acts Rules & Regulations and then there are DAMN Acts Rules & Regs !

 

While I understand that to a cruiser' date=' a cruise ship is a "special" kind of ship, in reality it isn't. Under international law, and the laws of most countries, any vessel that carries more than 12 passengers is a "passenger" vessel. Just because a ship provides entertainment to the passengers doesn't make it a special type of ship. Now, what other vessels carry more than 12 passengers? Ferries, commuter boats, duck boats, whale watching boats, dinner cruises, casino boats, and even some charter fishing boats, not to mention the river boats and coastal cruises under US flag (Blount, Lindblad, etc). Do you really want all these vessels operating full time in US waters with foreign crew and not under the jurisdiction of the USCG?

 

The USCG cannot enforce their own, stricter, safety regulations on foreign flag cruise ships as it is, what would happen if all of these other types of vessels didn't fall under their scrutiny either? I know you want comments limited to cruise ships, so I will say: Concordia, Triumph, Splendor, Grandeur, Star Princess, not to mention the number of unmentionable cargo ships that have struck bridges and shopping malls in the US while flying flags of convenience.

 

People complain that Viking does not comply fully with the ADA (they limit or prohibit scooters), because they are foreign flag, yet the cost of full compliance with the ADA by the one ship it applies to, POA, is one reason the cost for the cruise is so high. And it goes on and on, people wanting low cost cruises on foreign ships, but with the protections they expect from US law, which doesn't apply to those same foreign flag ships.

 

You mention the ability to get on and off in Europe. Do you think that a Bahamian flagged cruise ship can offer travel between Le Havre and Marseilles without stopping at a non-French port? Nope. That is "coastwise" trade, and is restricted to ships flagged in EU countries. So, there is another example of cabotage.

 

Ingalls shipyard never went bankrupt, it was American Hawaiian cruises, the original owner of the POA that went bankrupt. Ingalls is still in business, gratefully still taking taxpayer money building Navy vessels. The taxpayers would have been out the loan guarantee money they put up for the POA to American Hawaiian, if NCL had not paid it off and taken the hull. The German yard that completed the POA, did however, go bankrupt because of the cost of repairing her after sinking at the dock.

 

I find your comments about the SS United States to be somewhat naive. All that Crystal, or any potential buyer will get is a hull with a PVSA certificate. They will have to put as much money as a larger, more modern, cruise ship would cost to get the ship up and running. And even when she was running as a passenger ship, she was constructed and operated under US government subsidy, taxpayer money, covering the difference in cost between US flag and foreign flag.

 

And wishing you could have been on the US as a troop ship? You do realize that you wouldn't be two to a cabin and eating sit down in the MDR? Even the QE2 didn't do that, as late as the '80's Falkland war. Part of her subsidy was to maintain the pre-cut plywood carpet covers, the additional bunks, the cafeteria food lines and tables in a warehouse in Southampton to convert her to a troop ship. She had a maximum [b']passenger[/b] capacity of around 1800, but carried over 3000 troops.

 

The real reason that the US has priced itself out of nearly all shipping has nothing to do with the PVSA or the Jones Act, it has to do with all the safety, labor, and environmental protections that US citizens have come to expect. So, if you want to scrap the EPA, the ADA, and the USCG, we can go back to having a vibrant US flag passenger ship industry.

 

Do you know why Carnival is building cruise ships in China, under Chinese flag? To get into China's "coastwise" (read PVSA) market, because even China has cargo and passenger cabotage laws.

[roquejo]

We are leaving on the Pearl in May from Vancouver, going to Alaska....the cruise ends in Seattle but we had put in a request to disembark in Victoria (home). The travel agent has just informed us that because of the Jones Act, we cannot disembark in Victoria. Can anyone explain...or confirm this. TIA:confused:

 

It's PVSA, not Jones Act.

 

Your TA got it wrong, should be no issue as you already been to 2 countries, US and Canada.

 

You will only violate this if let's say you embarked in Seattle, cruised to Alaska, then getting off in Juneau Alaska before the ship reaches Victoria, BC, as you will be in the US all throughout your cruise.

 

You can't do that unless it is a US flagged ship like Pride of America.

[GeezerCouple]

It's PVSA, not Jones Act.

 

Your TA got it wrong, should be no issue as you already been to 2 countries, US and Canada.

 

You will only violate this if let's say you embarked in Seattle, cruised to Alaska, then getting off in Juneau Alaska before the ship reaches Victoria, BC, as you will be in the US all throughout your cruise.

 

You can't do that unless it is a US flagged ship like Pride of America.

 

Interestingly, NCL claims that the PVSA applies to the Pride of America, too, and disallows something like this.

 

We have a letter from NCL to this effect, from about 2 years ago, when we tried to explain that if the ship was US-flagged, this was a non-issue for this particular itinerary.

 

Our reading of the laws/regs seem quite clear that it doesn't apply to US-flagged ships; that was part of the point of these laws, after all.

 

Our then travel agent (we've changed since then) had insisted it was impossible, so we asked her to get information directly from NCL, and the answer was the same (including about the fines NCL would incur if any passenger didn't return to the ship before it left an intermediate Hawaiian port between departure and arrival back in Honolulu.

 

NCL has the right to "make their own rules", but they are claiming that they can't do anything about it, because it is PSVA (and *not* NCL's own rule).

 

???

[njhorseman]

As far as I know, there is no legal reason you cannot get off the POA at a different Hawaiian port than you started in. In fact, there is no CBP documentation or inspection requirements, since the cruise is completely "intra-state". It may just be NCL's requirement, if it exists.

 

And, the POA is not a true PVSA vessel, it is an exemption. Because she was not completely built in the US, she cannot trade unrestrictedly in the PVSA trade. She is limited to Hawaii only, with the exception of when going to or from a shipyard.

 

Interestingly, NCL claims that the PVSA applies to the Pride of America, too, and disallows something like this.

 

We have a letter from NCL to this effect, from about 2 years ago, when we tried to explain that if the ship was US-flagged, this was a non-issue for this particular itinerary.

 

Our reading of the laws/regs seem quite clear that it doesn't apply to US-flagged ships; that was part of the point of these laws, after all.

 

Our then travel agent (we've changed since then) had insisted it was impossible, so we asked her to get information directly from NCL, and the answer was the same (including about the fines NCL would incur if any passenger didn't return to the ship before it left an intermediate Hawaiian port between departure and arrival back in Honolulu.

 

NCL has the right to "make their own rules", but they are claiming that they can't do anything about it, because it is PSVA (and *not* NCL's own rule).

 

???

 

Is it possible that the special exemption granted for the POA does not permit her to transport passengers from one port in Hawaii to another? In other words is it possible the ship may be restricted to just transporting passenger on Honolulu to Honolulu closed loops? As noted POA can only operate in Hawaii and perhaps the exemption is even narrower, with restrictions on how it can trade in Hawaii.

Edited March 7, 2016 by njhorseman

[chengkp75]

Interestingly, NCL claims that the PVSA applies to the Pride of America, too, and disallows something like this.

 

We have a letter from NCL to this effect, from about 2 years ago, when we tried to explain that if the ship was US-flagged, this was a non-issue for this particular itinerary.

 

Our reading of the laws/regs seem quite clear that it doesn't apply to US-flagged ships; that was part of the point of these laws, after all.

 

Our then travel agent (we've changed since then) had insisted it was impossible, so we asked her to get information directly from NCL, and the answer was the same (including about the fines NCL would incur if any passenger didn't return to the ship before it left an intermediate Hawaiian port between departure and arrival back in Honolulu.

 

NCL has the right to "make their own rules", but they are claiming that they can't do anything about it, because it is PSVA (and *not* NCL's own rule).

 

???

 

I would say that this is just one more instance of the phone center folks not knowing what they are talking about, and the customer service people reacting with "canned" responses. Even after 15 years of US flag operations, many in corporate NCL still do not understand the differences.

[GeezerCouple]

I would say that this is just one more instance of the phone center folks not knowing what they are talking about, and the customer service people reacting with "canned" responses. Even after 15 years of US flag operations, many in corporate NCL still do not understand the differences.

 

Alas, this went beyond what "the phone center folks" said.

We pressed, and got a letter from someone at corporate in Miami.

 

We are guessing that they just don't want to bother with this, so it's easier to "just say no", etc.

Or someone at corporate not bothering to find out the correct answer to begin with.

Or... maybe there is something specific about this, but they only bothered to cite the general laws/regs. (?)

 

In any event, we stopped bothering at that point, since neither of us is a maritime attorney...

 

Thanks very much for clarifying that our interpretation after spending some time reading up) wasn't totally off base.

[hawkeyetlse]

Your TA got it wrong, should be no issue as you already been to 2 countries, US and Canada.

It's not that simple. It's not enough just to visit two countries, and then you can get off anywhere you want.

You will only violate this if let's say you embarked in Seattle, cruised to Alaska, then getting off in Juneau Alaska before the ship reaches Victoria, BC, as you will be in the US all throughout your cruise.

Even if the cruise went Seattle (US) - Victoria (Canada) - Juneau (US), you could not get off in Juneau. All North American itineraries have to be either round trip, or begin and end in different countries.

[Cuizer2]

It would seem that Jones PVSA and a host of other garbledegook rules and

regs need to be dumped tea party style. As I understand it there is only

1 ship flagged in USA service the POA - as for Canada I don't know.

So if we (USA) don't have any ships for passenger carriage the big deal is

about these archaic ancient times transportation road blocks favoring

USA flag ships which there is only one ! One ship in Hawaiian waters of USA

registry is going to dictate the rest of the USA cruising maritime business !

Give - me - a - break !

Comments specifically about CRUISE Ships and not Cargo Ships !

Where are the USA ships that need protection ?

This would be different if we had ships and USA employee workers !

And at this point what incentives are being shown to built such ships

and employ USA workers and is there any profit in it ?

The US United States is the only feasible realistic ghost of an opportunity

to pursue this further ! And she no doubt will be scrapped like the politicians

and archaic rules should be in not updating the Acts and Rules !

One should be able to get on and off cruise ships like inter-country travel in

Europe paying the tariff (fare) that the cruise ship line determines to make

a business profit out of this.

There are Acts Rules & Regulations and then there are DAMN Acts Rules & Regs !

 

The last time someone tried to modify the PCSA it was to strengthen it, not to weaken it.

[Cuizer2]

All North American itineraries have to be either round trip, or begin and end in different countries.

 

This could be a bit confusing to some. Foreign flagged ships go from Miami to San Diego and back all the time legally because they stop at a "distant foreign" port. I realize those ports are not in "North America" but the ship does transport people between two US cities legally legally by stopping in a distant foreign port.

[chengkp75]

Is it possible that the special exemption granted for the POA does not permit her to transport passengers from one port in Hawaii to another? In other words is it possible the ship may be restricted to just transporting passenger on Honolulu to Honolulu closed loops? As noted POA can only operate in Hawaii and perhaps the exemption is even narrower, with restrictions on how it can trade in Hawaii.

 

I've read the enabling legislation, and no, there is no restriction that I've seen.