Grand injured

[Lucky TGO]

It will be all fixed up by then, good as new:D.

 

Joe it will be fine. If not you can use my rowboat the suite is still available with

free laundry and drinks for you. If you take any friends they will have to pay sorry. :) :)

Tony

[p_mori7]

IF the platform had some type of manual locking system that needed to be engaged as routine procedure before getting underway...the platform would never have fallen open even though the hydraulics failed.

 

The fact that is has fallen open while underway tells us a few things:

1- The main rams that open close the door failed somehow and the door opened.

2- As Chief mentioned earlier, there are hydraulic locking rams that actually hold the platform in the closed position, not just the big rams that open/close the platform.

3- There are probably indications on the bridge that should show the platform in the closed/locked position or in the open/deployed position...If the ship got underway without the closed/locked green light...somebody on the bridge as well as the crew responsible for the platform overlooked some pretty important indications/procedures that emperiled the ship/passengers.

 

This is a SERIOUS situation.

[FishinChris]

The orange in the picture is part of a lifeboat. The photo is taken from an elevation above and outboard of the lifeboat. it is much higher than the waterline.

 

 

 

Whoever took the picture is probably on a balcony above the lifeboat, stuck their arm out as far as they could, aimed their camera at an angle downwards; and snapped a few pics to try and get the shot.

 

 

You are correct. The torn red the no is the lifeboat cover. Pic was taken from deck 9.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[mrs and mrs]

I'm getting a little lost in what I've posted on which of the three threads (two on Princess and one on HAL forums). Some of these doors have mechanical locking devices, but given the shape of the door and the opening behind it, where about half the door is not accessible when closed (just enough space for the framing and the rams), this door most likely has hydraulic locking rams. This is what bothers me, is that no class society in the world would approve a door that relies only on one set of hydraulic rams to keep the door closed, it would require manual dogs or locking rams. The system would also have to have switches that would indicate the door in the closed position and the locks in the locked position before the "green" "good to go" light would indicate on the bridge. Without this green light, the ship should not have sailed, and when any one of the lock bars moved out of position the light would have changed to red, and an alarm sounded, and someone should have been dispatched to check the door long before it failed and fell outboard.

 

Thanks Chief, it bothers me greatly to. For what its worth I have never known a hydraulic or electrical system, on a critical form of equipment without a manual override or a manual fail-safe.

 

For what its worth ya doing great keeping up with the questions (as always),

come on down to the Junior Rates Mess and hook into some beers, jeez ya deserve it.:)

Edited December 4, 2016 by mrs and mrs

[triptolemus]

IF the platform had some type of manual locking system that needed to be engaged as routine procedure before getting underway...the platform would never have fallen open even though the hydraulics failed.

 

The fact that is has fallen open while underway tells us a few things:

1- The main rams that open close the door failed somehow and the door opened.

2- As Chief mentioned earlier, there are hydraulic locking rams that actually hold the platform in the closed position, not just the big rams that open/close the platform.

3- There are probably indications on the bridge that should show the platform in the closed/locked position or in the open/deployed position...If the ship got underway without the closed/locked green light...somebody on the bridge as well as the crew responsible for the platform overlooked some pretty important indications/procedures that emperiled the ship/passengers.

 

This is a SERIOUS situation.

 

Or a DCS failure -- which also should not go unnoticed.

Edited December 4, 2016 by triptolemus

[maizer]

In light of the situation, what are the chances of the 'backup watertight doors' failing?

 

Also fwiw, there were some dockside security personnel issues in our last port Lahaina(a tender port), that caused us to leave 90 minutes later than scheduled. Likely nothing to do with our current situation i guess.

Edited December 4, 2016 by maizer

[chengkp75]

Okay, didn't want to get too far into the weeds about hydraulics here, but you guys seem to be asking, and I'm currently waiting for the pilot to board for an all night maneuver down the Sabine river, so here goes.

 

These hydraulic systems are what are known as "closed center" systems. What that means is that when the operating lever is in the "neutral" position (not opening or closing), the fluid in the hydraulic cylinder is trapped in the cylinder, and since oil is not compressible, even a large force (like the weight of the door wanting to fall out) cannot move the hydraulic ram either direction. This is why it is baffling to me that the ram in the photo is extended.

 

As I said in post above, a good portion of the door perimeter is inaccessible when the door is closed, so you could not use mechanical manual dogs. The hydraulics for the locking cylinders is also closed center, so they cannot drift open when the hydraulics are off, nor when the control lever is in neutral. Further, in order to prevent damage to the door and hydraulics, there will be interlocks so that even if I try to move the door open with the large cylinders, if the lock rams are showing closed electrically, then a valve prevents the large cylinders from building pressure to try to move the door. Likewise, if the door is not showing closed, then the lock cylinders cannot be activated.

 

So, you have two different hydraulic systems in hydraulic lock holding the door closed, and the lock cylinders use a mechanical wedging action to force the door into the gasket.

[p_mori7]

In light of the situation, what are the chances of the 'backup watertight doors' failing?

 

Watertight doors are manually dogged...once they are closed...they don't fail...I don't know if the compartment is watertight.

 

I'd be more concerned about pumping out ingested seawater...but I have no clue what the configuration is like for that on that ship.

[chengkp75]

In light of the situation, what are the chances of the 'backup watertight doors' failing?

 

Also fwiw, there were some dockside security personnel issues in our last port Lahaina(a tender port), that caused us to leave 90 minutes later than scheduled. Likely nothing to do with our current situation i guess.

 

The next watertight door is a manual dogged door much like what mrs and mrs posted a picture of. Unless someone goes and opens this, it won't fail.

[triptolemus]

So, you have two different hydraulic systems in hydraulic lock holding the door closed, and the lock cylinders use a mechanical wedging action to force the door into the gasket.

 

So speculate... what the hell happened here?

[chengkp75]

Watertight doors are manually dogged...once they are closed...they don't fail...I don't know if the compartment is watertight.

 

I'd be more concerned about pumping out ingested seawater...but I have no clue what the configuration is like for that on that ship.

 

Since there are hydraulics in the tender port, the deck drains in there are not allowed to go overboard unlike the promenade deck drains, etc. So, these drains, which are pretty small compared to the size of the space, and therefore won't drain the space too quickly, go to the engine room, where the bilge pumps will move it to the bilge holding tank, or if that tank is full, as I've said, as this is an emergency situation, it is allowed to pump even potentially oil contaminated bilge water overboard. Most of the water entering the tender port will retreat back out the big opening when the wave recedes.

[p_mori7]

So speculate... what the hell happened here?

 

Chief is working in Texas tonight. He may not be able to answer quickly.

Edited December 4, 2016 by p_mori7

[mrs and mrs]

IF the platform had some type of manual locking system that needed to be engaged as routine procedure before getting underway...the platform would never have fallen open even though the hydraulics failed.

 

The fact that is has fallen open while underway tells us a few things:

1- The main rams that open close the door failed somehow and the door opened.

2- As Chief mentioned earlier, there are hydraulic locking rams that actually hold the platform in the closed position, not just the big rams that open/close the platform.correct these perform the job of water-tight integrity,tightening the door against a rubber gasket,plus holding the door securely in place.

3- There are probably indications on the bridge that should show the platform in the closed/locked position or in the open/deployed position...If the ship got underway without the closed/locked green light...somebody on the bridge as well as the crew responsible for the platform overlooked some pretty important indications/procedures that emperiled the ship/passengers.

 

This is a SERIOUS situation.

opps , ya better believe that alright.

[ar1950]

So speculate... what the hell happened here?

 

As Ricky use to say to Lucy: "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!". Well, at least someone on the ship may have some..........:eek:

Edited December 4, 2016 by ar1950

[Astro Flyer]

I imagine they are lining up charters. There aren't many seats available from Hawaii, even in a somewhat low season.

 

The period between after Thanksgiving & until the Christmas crush is the slowest time in Hawaii. So flights shouldn't be as difficult to get back to the Mainland & also hotels should be more readily available when they arrive in Honolulu.

 

I checked a Hawaiian Airlines flight on Tuesday morning from HNL to SFO and it's about a third empty plus HA flies to OAK & & SJC in the SF Bay Area.

 

Some wonder about going to the closest port in Hilo but the Chief explained why that might not be possible. Obviously safety is the top priority but obviously the captain & crew feel it's safe going to Honolulu. There are so few flights & hotels in Hilo and many, many more in Honolulu to get passengers home.

 

To the passengers who have posted from the ship, you have a great attitude about the situation...cheers!

Edited December 4, 2016 by Astro Flyer

[chengkp75]

So speculate... what the hell happened here?

 

Hate to cast stones where I don't have all the forensic evidence, but my guess is that the door was not properly secured at sailing, or the hydraulics were not turned off and there were faulty components allowing unattended functioning of the hydraulics, and at the very least, the indicator system is suspect. I don't see this happening instantaneously, and security should have been patrolling this area while at sea, and the water leaking around the gasket would be obvious to security, and the rising level at unexpected rates in the engine room compartment should all have raised flags.

 

These openings and their closures are vitally important to the safety of the ship, and constant vigilance is required when you decide to put openings like this in a ship. An extreme instance of poor judgement and lack of oversight and awareness regarding watertight doors is the Herald of Free Enterprise, a British ferry that sank because no one checked that the bow door was closed.

[chengkp75]

Since the ship is returning to Hawaii, the USCG will inspect the ship and instigate an incident investigation. The reports of all investigations are posted here:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiX6cLd5dnQAhVk9IMKHZe8DdMQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcgmix.uscg.mil%2Fiir%2F&usg=AFQjCNEnWUW6ncgUp6n11G844uqqeRWAlg&bvm=bv.139782543,d.amc

 

But in many cases it takes months before a report is finalized, and months before it is posted on the website.

[triptolemus]

Thanks. I can tell it's not in your nature to make accusations without evidence. I appreciate you speculating and satisfying immediate curiosity.

[chengkp75]

Thanks. I can tell it's not in your nature to make accusations without evidence. I appreciate you speculating and satisfying immediate curiosity.

 

Root cause analysis of this incident will go several layers deep to find the real cause, and as in most cases, it is a combination of factors that leads to the failure, any one of which if removed from the equation would have prevented the incident.

[RDC1]

Since the ship is returning to Hawaii, the USCG will inspect the ship and instigate an incident investigation. The reports of all investigations are posted here:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiX6cLd5dnQAhVk9IMKHZe8DdMQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcgmix.uscg.mil%2Fiir%2F&usg=AFQjCNEnWUW6ncgUp6n11G844uqqeRWAlg&bvm=bv.139782543,d.amc

 

But in many cases it takes months before a report is finalized, and months before it is posted on the website.

 

 

I remember a case a few years ago where a passenger on another line had gotten into restricted space and released an anchor while the ship was sailing.

 

How complex are the controls? It is possible for someone to open the door if they got into that space? Is it possible for a malfunction to have activated the system?

Edited December 4, 2016 by RDC1

[mrs and mrs]

Root cause analysis of this incident will go several layers deep to find the real cause, and as in most cases, it is a combination of factors that leads to the failure, any one of which if removed from the equation would have prevented the incident.

 

Sorry to put your arse in the sling, but it was better coming from you than me, more credibility I guess and thank-you.:):)

[Optotronics]

I'm new here and in fact we're going on our first cruise on the regal next month. I've been following this thread all day and it concerns us that something like this which you think should have been found back in Hawaii and not 500miles out to sea. Is this something that the NTSB or other government overseer of safety will be investigating to find out if it were human error or design flaw and have them take steps to prevent this from happening again?

If the same type of interlocks and sensors are used in other locations in the ship a future failure of the same type could perhaps have a much worse outcome.

[p_mori7]

USCG will be aboard the ship asap once it gets to Hawaii.

[chengkp75]

I remember a case a few years ago where a passenger on another line had gotten into restricted space and released an anchor while the ship was sailing.

 

How complex are the controls? It is possible for someone to open the door if they got into that space? Is it possible for a malfunction to have activated the system?

 

I've heard of the anchor story, but not sure if its apocryphal or not, as doing this would entail serious damage to the underwater portion of the hull, and also the anchor would not stop at the end of the chain, it would let go and be lost forever. Anyway.

 

The controls are clearly marked, so if someone knew enough to start the hydraulics and then activate the controls, yes they could do it. Not likely a malfunction could start this whole thing going. Unless the control valves were leaking, you have to hold the control lever to the position you want (open, closed, lock, unlock) for the whole time necessary to complete the operation, or the hydraulics stop moving.

[ar1950]

I'm new here and in fact we're going on our first cruise on the regal next month. I've been following this thread all day and it concerns us that something like this which you think should have been found back in Hawaii and not 500miles out to sea. Is this something that the NTSB or other government overseer of safety will be investigating to find out if it were human error or design flaw and have them take steps to prevent this from happening again?

If the same type of interlocks and sensors are used in other locations in the ship a future failure of the same type could perhaps have a much worse outcome.

 

Pretty unusual for this type of incident to happen. If it is any consolation the Regal is a, relatively speaking, brand new ship. We loved it and you probably will too. Enjoy your cruise.