Trump's changes to Cuba travel from US

[bcaha]

We also marked off "people to people" on the NCL Visa application but aren't cruising till Oct. Trying to figure out if we are going to have to change that. Prefer not to use ship excursions...Hoping someone on these boards will have some insight into this in the near future. thanks.

[RJB]

No, "HE" lives in the US northeast, and part time in Brazil, and does not have cable in the US, as already stated. The major networks' (ABC, NBC, CBS, NPR) local affiliates in the area did not carry the speech.

Thank you, gwesq, but this poster, and one other who lives in Florida, is evidently heavily influenced by the old Miami hardliner Cubans, along with some antiquated ideas about Communism perhaps , and is simply harassing me because he does not like my opinions on Cuba, which are informed by those many Cubans in Cuba with whom I have had long discussions.

just need to ignore this and get the news from other sources that are not biased :(

[Karmary]

Following closely as I sail NCL July3. NCL did send an email that is similar to RCL.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[Snit13]

We also marked off "people to people" on the NCL Visa application but aren't cruising till Oct. Trying to figure out if we are going to have to change that. Prefer not to use ship excursions...Hoping someone on these boards will have some insight into this in the near future. thanks.

 

What can be more "People to People" than walking the streets of Havana and interacting? Have difficulty understanding how riding on a bus with fellow passengers is compliance. We are booked for October 2017 and planned to do ship tour day 1 after arrival and then spend remaining time doing independent travel.

 

I taught in Miami from 1962 until 1987 so I have taught hundreds if not thousands of Cuban students, some just days off the boats. Some fathers never returned to their families after Bay of Pigs. I have been wanting to visit their homeland for years. Hoping things will be resolved by those in position to make change.

[dwgreenlee]

My thoughts

The press reports on Trump's speech/order indicated he was going to eliminate tourist travel. The Treasury said they would eliminate individual people-to-people travel (self-certification?) but still allow group people-to-people travel (the tour/travel company provides the certification?) The Treasury announcement also said Cruise ships would continue but new regulations on same were forthcoming. This is clear as mud.

 

Before the Obama changes the tour/travel company providing the certification - and obtaining a individual licence - had to be a "subject to US Jurisdiction" (a.k.a. a US company or other US thing.) Cruise Lines may not meet this requirement. For example RCI's ship is flagged in the Bahamas and RCI is incorporated in Liberia. The possibility of using a third party US Company to provide the tours and certification exists but the penalty for an improper certification is significant so "buying" this certification was/is not cheap.

 

Nothing says the new regulations and procedures will be the same as the pre-Obama rules, but if they are, much cruise travel will be impracticable and what remains will be expensive. Also, the Treasury announcement said that the new rules would apply to travel (1) taken after rule implementation and (2) booked after 16 June 2017 so you cannot do bookings now and be grandfathered. Regardless, the Trump announcement is going to intimidate both cruise lines and prospective travelers.

RCI and NCL have both issued statements that everything is OK but cruise lines always say everything is OK right up to the moment they cancel.

Edited June 17, 2017 by dwgreenlee
typo

[EatonDoolittle]

We also marked off "people to people" on the NCL Visa application but aren't cruising till Oct. Trying to figure out if we are going to have to change that. Prefer not to use ship excursions...Hoping someone on these boards will have some insight into this in the near future. thanks.

 

 

Google Cuba Journal - it's an online newsletter. There is an article posted yesterday entitled "Here is OFAC's latest update on Cuba Policy". Read FAQ #4 which states that if you have already started the reservation process, you are grandfathered in under rules in place prior to yesterday's possible changes. So you are fine.

 

Frankly, I don't see any changes that will significantly affect cruisers. Returning folks already say you can walk off and on the ship, nobody cares where you are going or what you are doing. It is already in place that you are supposed to keep a journal of your people to people activities for some years. I have 2 private tours booked for later this month, my TA just said to keep the receipts.

 

Realistically, does anybody here imagine a Treasury Agent knocking on your door in a few years asking what you were doing in Havana between 3 and 6 PM on July 8, 2017? As ugly as things have gotten lately, we are still a free country.

And for those who are worried that we would be forced to take a ship tour, do you really think the cruise lines would use their manpower to enforce a crazy US doctrine?

Plus, bookings would drop significantly.

 

Everybody, take a deep breath and continue practicing your Spanish "dos mas Mojitos, por favor ".:D

[LHT28]

I find the whole thing confusing & amusing

This is what I am reading in all the reports ...correct me if wrong

Trump does not want USD going to the Cuban officials

Cruise ships are exempt but they pay port fees to the Cuban government

tour buses that the tours are on the fees are paid to the government there

people cannot go to a hotel or restaurant run by the Cuban authorities but ok to eat in a private home business but because of the trade embargo these people may or may not have food supplies

cannot shop in a store that is run by the government

stopping the people to people rule not really sure what that was about anyway

as someone pointed out being on a bus looking at things from the windows how does that interact with the Cuban people

 

I guess once the US government figures out what the rules are they will let the people know or maybe not

so far we are booked for a cruise to Cuba in Dec if the rules change we will be on a cruise to somewhere

 

JMO

[RJB]

Google Cuba Journal - it's an online newsletter. There is an article posted yesterday entitled "Here is OFAC's latest update on Cuba Policy". Read FAQ #4 which states that if you have already started the reservation process, you are grandfathered in under rules in place prior to yesterday's possible changes. So you are fine.

 

Frankly, I don't see any changes that will significantly affect cruisers. Returning folks already say you can walk off and on the ship, nobody cares where you are going or what you are doing. It is already in place that you are supposed to keep a journal of your people to people activities for some years. I have 2 private tours booked for later this month, my TA just said to keep the receipts.

 

Realistically, does anybody here imagine a Treasury Agent knocking on your door in a few years asking what you were doing in Havana between 3 and 6 PM on July 8, 2017? As ugly as things have gotten lately, we are still a free country.

And for those who are worried that we would be forced to take a ship tour, do you really think the cruise lines would use their manpower to enforce a crazy US doctrine?

Plus, bookings would drop significantly.

 

Everybody, take a deep breath and continue practicing your Spanish "dos mas Mojitos, por favor ".:D

What you say here seems to make a lot of sense to me. Does not sound like very much or anything will change for cruises. Hope we are right.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Google Cuba Journal - it's an online newsletter. There is an article posted yesterday entitled "Here is OFAC's latest update on Cuba Policy". Read FAQ #4 which states that if you have already started the reservation process, you are grandfathered in under rules in place prior to yesterday's possible changes. So you are fine.

 

Frankly, I don't see any changes that will significantly affect cruisers. Returning folks already say you can walk off and on the ship, nobody cares where you are going or what you are doing. It is already in place that you are supposed to keep a journal of your people to people activities for some years. I have 2 private tours booked for later this month, my TA just said to keep the receipts.

 

Realistically, does anybody here imagine a Treasury Agent knocking on your door in a few years asking what you were doing in Havana between 3 and 6 PM on July 8, 2017? As ugly as things have gotten lately, we are still a free country.

And for those who are worried that we would be forced to take a ship tour, do you really think the cruise lines would use their manpower to enforce a crazy US doctrine?

Plus, bookings would drop significantly.

 

Everybody, take a deep breath and continue practicing your Spanish "dos mas Mojitos, por favor ".:D

 

I hope you're right, but I have doubts. People going soon will be OK because it's going to take months for the rules to be worked out. It's people sailing next year who could see changes imposed on their touring.

 

Friday's FAQs from Treasury says very little about cruise passengers. It does say that group land travel must have an approved guide or representative of the tour company. To me that sounds like no independent time. I can't see them giving cruise passengers more freedom than they give to land-based groups.

 

The grandfathering in #4 applies to individuals who have already made their bookings for independent travel. There is no mention of grandfathering cruises or cruise passengers. I can't see a cruise line differentiating between those who booked early and those who book after the rules change. But I can see them refusing to let people off the ship if they haven't booked a ship's tour.

 

The cruise lines won't want to police these rules. But if they don't, the US could revoke their permission to go to Cuba. And maybe slap them with fines, too. Under the recent rules, people weren't supposed to go off on their own unless they were doing approved activities. I've seen a lot of posts about being able to do whatever people wanted to do. Against the rules, but cruise lines turned a blind eye because it's what passengers wanted and nobody was making a fuss about enforcing the rules.

 

The last item in the FAQs said something about compiling a list of approved (not controlled by the government) tour companies. I don't know if this will be a list of vendors the cruise lines can use or a list of vendors we can book independent tours with.

 

At this point, I'm prepared to be herded around like a 10-year-old on a school trip. It's better than nothing. And if it turns out to be more relaxed than that, I'll be very happy.

[bcaha]

Thanks EatonDoolittle, I saw FAQ#4 yesterday, but then saw something that contradicted it somewhere....

[3rdGenCunarder]

What can be more "People to People" than walking the streets of Havana and interacting? Have difficulty understanding how riding on a bus with fellow passengers is compliance. We are booked for October 2017 and planned to do ship tour day 1 after arrival and then spend remaining time doing independent travel.

 

I taught in Miami from 1962 until 1987 so I have taught hundreds if not thousands of Cuban students, some just days off the boats. Some fathers never returned to their families after Bay of Pigs. I have been wanting to visit their homeland for years. Hoping things will be resolved by those in position to make change.

 

Bold is mine! Couldn't agree more!

 

I think Trump wanted to get rid of the entire people to people category but didn't want to take on the airlines and cruiselines. He's cutting off individual travel because individuals can't fight back, but he still appears to be striking a blow for the Cuban people. Ironically, the individual p2p traveler was probably interacting with Cubans more than people on the "approved" land and cruise tours did. Probably spending more money with them, too.

 

It makes no sense. But that's politics, isn't it??? :rolleyes:

[jeaniebeanie45]

I am researching everything I can find regarding the new Cuba policies. I think with time we will have the answers, but for now what is the difference between the cruise lines hiring tour companies that may or may not be run by the government and an individual hiring a tour company run by an individual? I am hoping we will still be able to do the classic car tour on our own. I have no problem keeping a log of my activities while there as is required by the US government. Also, the Tropicana Cabaret show and other cabarets, I'm sure, are government run, which seems to mean we will not be able to attend under the new policies.

[VidaNaPraia]

just need to ignore this and get the news from other sources that are not biased :(

 

 

1) biased=does not agree with RJB's POV

2) The Platt Amendment is not still in effect.

3) The US, as noted, cannot claim moral superiority in forcing other sovereign countries to act as certain politicians wish.

4) Generally, the carrot works better than the stick.

[VidaNaPraia]

What can be more "People to People" than walking the streets of Havana and interacting? Have difficulty understanding how riding on a bus with fellow passengers is compliance.

 

As counter intuitive as it sounds, an individual casually "walking the streets of Havana and interacting" with random locals never met the definition of the People to People category. I have heard that the widespread abuse of this particular category in that manner led to its specifically being targeted for elimination.

 

"Riding on a bus with fellow passengers", while being presented a historical narrative, fulfills the criteria for a full-time program of cultural events.

[RJB]

As counter intuitive as it sounds, an individual casually "walking the streets of Havana and interacting" with random locals never met the definition of the People to People category. I have heard that the widespread abuse of this particular category in that manner led to its specifically being targeted for elimination.

 

"Riding on a bus with fellow passengers", while being presented a historical narrative, fulfills the criteria for a full-time program of cultural events.

nothing changed, still need to ignore .

[VidaNaPraia]

nothing changed, still need to ignore .

 

Trying to ignore the truth is futile.

Only living fossils still think the Platt Amendment applies.

[3rdGenCunarder]

As counter intuitive as it sounds, an individual casually "walking the streets of Havana and interacting" with random locals never met the definition of the People to People category. I have heard that the widespread abuse of this particular category in that manner led to its specifically being targeted for elimination.

 

"Riding on a bus with fellow passengers", while being presented a historical narrative, fulfills the criteria for a full-time program of cultural events.

 

You're right. It sounds like it should meet the definition, but it never did. That whole category is strange, if you read it closely. P2p falls under education. But museum visits aren't acceptable. How can a museum not be educational and cultural, but a guide talking on a bus is cultural enough to be OK? Listening to a guide's lecture on a bus isn't interactive, but it's acceptable.

 

And you're right about the abuse. In his explanation of why the p2p was being curtailed, Trump mentioned that self-certifying didn't work because people didn't follow the rules.

[RJB]

Trying to ignore the truth is futile.

Only living fossils still think the Platt Amendment applies.

you are easy to ignore since you don't know the truth, or want to know it. And most of the Platt Amendment was repealed in 1934.

[VidaNaPraia]

It is time to ignore all that you write.

just need to ignore this...

nothing changed, still need to ignore .

you are easy to ignore

 

You yourself don't seem to be ignoring me very well. LOL

The quoted comments start to sound like a pouting 5 year old with fingers in ears. Nyah, nyah, a-boo-boo !

 

And where is ANY INFO on Cuba that comes from personal experience on the island or from personally talking to Cubans that live on the island?

 

I, on the other hand, am posting from my personal experience talking to Cubans of many walks of life IN CUBA, and information gleaned form my own trips around the island, with eyes, ears, mind and heart fully open.

 

And most of the Platt Amendment was repealed in 1934.

 

Oh goody, someone knows how to Google!

Yes, that was the point. Anyone who still believes that the US can force Cuba to bend to US will is a fossil, living as if it were pre-1934.

Edited June 17, 2017 by VidaNaPraia

[pbenjamin]

The most absurd aspect of the new policy is that it hopes to bolster private enterprise but accomplishes the opposite. Casas Particulares and Paladars are private enterprise but it is individual travelers who are more apt to frequent them. Major tour companies like InsightCuba book travelers into big government owned hotels

[VidaNaPraia]

The most absurd aspect of the new policy is that it hopes to bolster private enterprise but accomplishes the opposite. Casas Particulares and Paladars are private enterprise but it is individual travelers who are more apt to frequent them. Major tour companies like InsightCuba book travelers into big government owned hotels

 

And it makes the US look untrustworthy in the eyes of the very Cubans it wants to lobby their own government for changes.

The US loosens the rules, more US tourists come, small business people (who still don't have a lot of "spare" money) invest in their businesses (economize on other things to buy new apartments to fix up to rent and start restaurants), the US tightens the regs, the investments are for naught, rooms and eateries standing empty, and Cuban entrepreneurs who "believed the propaganda" are suffering.

[RJB]

And it makes the US look untrustworthy in the eyes of the very Cubans it wants to lobby their own government for changes.

The US loosens the rules, more US tourists come, small business people (who still don't have a lot of "spare" money) invest in their businesses (economize on other things to buy new apartments to fix up to rent and start restaurants), the US tightens the regs, the investments are for naught, rooms and eateries standing empty, and Cuban entrepreneurs who "believed the propaganda" are suffering.

Too bad i can't ignore all this dribble from someone who seems to know nothing. The Cuban government should be taking care of its people not the US Govt. You just want something for nothing. A welfare system for the Cuban people paid for by the US. The Cuban people deserve better. Hope it could happen.

[VidaNaPraia]

Too bad i can't ignore all this dribble from someone who seems to know nothing.

Looking in the mirror again apparently. :rolleyes:

 

The Cuban government should be taking care of its people not the US Govt.

 

The Cuban government IS taking care of the Cuban people, and has been, through thick and thin.

Cubans have a higher literacy rate than the US due to an excellent free education system. No one lacks for healthcare, unlike the US. Rent and utilities are subsidized or free for the poor, whereas in the US, families with children are living in welfare motels and shelters. There is a basic food basket for all, unlike the US where working families go hungry and the food stamp program is being cut.

They're not doing a bad job taking care of their people, for a country that's been forcibly isolated and cut off from most trade with the world.

 

You just want something for nothing. A welfare system for the Cuban people paid for by the US.

 

I want something for nothing?

Where did you read that? Please show the quote (because I have never said or implied that).

Pure imagination, pure fiction, on your part.

Welfare system? What welfare system? A welfare system paid for by the US? :confused:

So every time a private US citizen chooses to stay at a BnB, that's a "welfare" system for the owner of the lodging?

 

The Cuban people deserve better. Hope it could happen.

 

They sure do.

Hope whatever your fevered dreams have conjured up isn't it though.

Let's give 'em a chance at the "better" they deserve, instead of handicapping them further.

Edited June 17, 2017 by VidaNaPraia

[tommui987]

Vida:

 

Why do you bother answering a troll?

[dwgreenlee]

More data. Trump's memo is attached. Also can be found at:https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/06/16/national-security-presidential-memorandum-strengthening-policy-united.

 

r/Don

National Security Presidential Memorandum on Strengthening the Policy of the United States Towar.pdf