Missed the ship...$300 per person to get on at the first port. WHY?

[bUU]

Its all about precedent, which is one of the bases of US law. Or a dinner cruise boat operator wants to run between Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, he would then have a sufficient legal precedent to offer this on a foreign flag boat.

How about New Orleans to St. Paul?

[chengkp75]

How about New Orleans to St. Paul?

 

That has to be on a PVSA compliant vessel (US owned, built, flagged, and crewed), as Viking is finding out to the detriment of their plans to cruise the Mississippi.

[chengkp75]

And I checked, there is a ferry service between Key West and Marco Island and Fort Myer's Beach, so they could argue that they should be allowed to be foreign flag, if cruise ships can do it without penalty.

[Shmoo here]

That has to be on a PVSA compliant vessel (US owned, built, flagged, and crewed), as Viking is finding out to the detriment of their plans to cruise the Mississippi.

Ooooo.... I hadn't thought about that.

[chengkp75]

Ooooo.... I hadn't thought about that.

 

Neither did they, which is why their plans are currently on hold.

[bUU]

Ooooo.... I hadn't thought about that.

Which is rather why I asked. I think some folks are trying to make us think (or make themselves think - I'm not sure which) that there are no winners from the PVSA, when there clearly are.

[nealstuber]

Actually, the US is not "forcing a foreign flag shipping company to charge US customers $300/pp". The US government, and CBP in particular, are always careful to note in their literature regarding the PVSA, that the fine is to the cruise line, and they don't care who the passenger is. It is the cruise lines' ticket contracts where you give them the right to pass this fine on to you.

 

While, possibly, no one would book a cruise between Key West and Miami, what if the next cruise line decides to offer cruises between Miami and Galveston on a foreign flag vessel. They could argue in court that since these people were allowed to cruise from Key West to Miami, then they should be allowed to offer cruises from Miami to Galveston. Its all about precedent, which is one of the bases of US law. Or a dinner cruise boat operator wants to run between Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, he would then have a sufficient legal precedent to offer this on a foreign flag boat.

 

Just look at the exemption to the PVSA granted for Puerto Rico, and there are a couple of other standing exemptions like some ferries on lakes between US and Canada, where foreign flag cruise ships are allowed to carry passengers between one US port (San Juan) and another (mainland US), these exemptions go away as soon as a US flag ship starts to provide the service.

 

As to whether or not the travel was planned that way, that's the only reason it was allowed, and I'm frankly surprised that it was allowed at all, with or without the fine.

 

If you could get the entire maritime world to change the definition of "passenger vessel" to separate cruise ships from all other passenger vessels, then you might have a chance of getting a change to the PVSA.

 

And regards to your example of Bermuda, the ship did not transport you between the two ports, you used land transportation, so there was no "coastwise" shipping. The ship entered Bermuda, and docked in Hamilton. It then docked in Kings Wharf, and then left Bermuda. Where is there any "coastwise" transportation of passengers between Bermudan ports?

 

 

 

If a cruiser was doing back to back Bermuda cruises, one could say a passenger was transported from Kings Warf to Hamilton by way of New York and it would be no more ridiculous than saying a passenger was transported from Key West to Miami by way of Cozumel.

 

Sure the fines go to the cruise line, but does anybody expect them to eat $300 on a $750 cruise fare?

 

While your hypothetical of Miami to Galveston is interesting, the fact is there is no passenger ship doing that .. and I for one would love to catch a ship of any flag in Brownsville to get to Miami for another cruise. But we've elected to protect something that is not happening anyway and it hurts us and has no tangible benefit.

 

The most obvious example are the AK cruises out of Seattle and other US ports. Is the US better served by forcing 4 hr port calls in Vancouver? Wouldn't the US economy be better served if that time could be spent in another AK port?

 

Again, I respect your knowledge and perspective... But we have these things called airplanes now. If a person wants to get from one US port to another, 99.999% chance they are going to fly or drive or even take a train as all of these options are faster and cheaper than a passenger vessel of any flag. Protecting US coastwise passenger service is like protecting rotary phones, milk delivery and smoke signals.

 

 

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[bUU]

While your hypothetical of Miami to Galveston is interesting, the fact is there is no passenger ship doing that

What about New Orleans to St. Paul?

 

But we've elected to protect something that is not happening anyway and it hurts us and has no tangible benefit.

To you. It is remarkably easy to rationalize objections when you disregard how things benefit others.

[tarheelmjfan]

And I checked, there is a ferry service between Key West and Marco Island and Fort Myer's Beach, so they could argue that they should be allowed to be foreign flag, if cruise ships can do it without penalty.

 

That would make sense from Port Tampa Bay, but it would make no sense at all to drive from Miami to Marco Island or Fort Myers to take a ferry to KW.

[nealstuber]

What about New Orleans to St. Paul?

There are people who missed their ship in New Orleans who were fined for picking it up in St Paul?

 

To you. It is remarkably easy to rationalize objections when you disregard how things benefit others.

 

 

I've asked this several times: "Who benefited from these guys paying $300??"

 

 

 

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[BNBR]

Sure the fines go to the cruise line, but does anybody expect them to eat $300 on a $750 cruise fare?

 

Absolutely. The same reason a restaurant gladly gives you another dish simply because you didn't like the one you ordered, even though it was made correctly. I expect them to eat it from a customer service perspective, even though they have no obligation to do so. Making people happy is so much more profitable in the long run, but they can run their business however they want.

[bUU]

I've asked this several times: "Who benefited from these guys paying $300??"

 

 

 

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Yet refused to acknowledge the answered given.

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[Shmoo here]

I've asked this several times: "Who benefited from these guys paying $300??"

 

 

 

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Well, the people taking the cruise that were allowed to board in Key West benefited. Otherwise they'd have no cruise at all.

[chengkp75]

I've asked this several times: "Who benefited from these guys paying $300??"

 

 

 

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The tens of thousands of people working on passenger vessels from Calais, Maine to Seattle, Washington.

[Crusin5252]

It looks like this intierary goes Miami > KW > Cozumel > Miami. So even if they got on in KW, they still visited a foreign port (Mexico) before going back to Miami. So I don't think the PVSA applies.

 

(I know people are enjoying feeling superior over people making mistakes with their ID, but I don't think the $300 fee has actually been explained yet.)

 

Edit: so going from Miami to Cozumel counts, but going from Key West (in the same state) doesn't count? That sounds like some arbitrary law-making.

 

If they embark at one US port (Key West) and debark at a different US port (Miami) without visiting a distant foreign port they violate the PSA. Mexico, Canada, and most Caribbean islands are not considered distant foreign ports. The ABC islands are considered a distant foreign port which is why open loop repo cruises often go to one of those.

[chengkp75]

That would make sense from Port Tampa Bay, but it would make no sense at all to drive from Miami to Marco Island or Fort Myers to take a ferry to KW.

 

I'm not saying that this is in competition to what the people did in the OP's post, of traveling from Key West to Miami. I am saying that the Key West Express ferry would have a legal challenge to claim that they should be allowed to operate the Key West to Fort Myers ferry under a foreign flag if the cruise ship could transport a passenger from Key West to Miami without a penalty. As soon as a precedent is set, everyone in the same, or even similar circumstances gets the same protection under the law (no discrimination), so the small ferry operator could say, "you let the big cruise ship do this, you're discriminating against me, because I'm a small operator. I want to flag my boats in the Bahamas, not pay tax on the revenue, not hire US crew, and not pay US wages, and not have to meet USCG regulations. Your discrimination is harming the ability of my company to make a good income".

[tarheelmjfan]

I'm not saying that this is in competition to what the people did in the OP's post, of traveling from Key West to Miami. I am saying that the Key West Express ferry would have a legal challenge to claim that they should be allowed to operate the Key West to Fort Myers ferry under a foreign flag if the cruise ship could transport a passenger from Key West to Miami without a penalty. As soon as a precedent is set, everyone in the same, or even similar circumstances gets the same protection under the law (no discrimination), so the small ferry operator could say, "you let the big cruise ship do this, you're discriminating against me, because I'm a small operator. I want to flag my boats in the Bahamas, not pay tax on the revenue, not hire US crew, and not pay US wages, and not have to meet USCG regulations. Your discrimination is harming the ability of my company to make a good income".

 

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see how you could convince anyone that driving from Miami to Marco Island or Ft. Myers to travel to Key West via Ferry makes sense. That's really not a viable option. As I mentioned earlier, Port Tampa Bay to KW makes sense. Using that option to reach KW from Miami doesn't.

[chengkp75]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see how you could convince anyone that driving from Miami to Marco Island or Ft. Myers to travel to Key West via Ferry makes sense. That's really not a viable option. As I mentioned earlier, Port Tampa Bay to KW makes sense. Using that option to reach KW from Miami doesn't.

 

Again, I'm not saying anything about travel from Miami to Key West using this ferry service. I'm saying that there exists a US flag ferry operation from Key West to the mainland of Florida, so that if a foreign flag cruise ship is allowed to carry a passenger from Key West to anywhere on the mainland, then that ferry operation would have the ability to argue that they are being discriminated against by being forced to be a US flag operation. It has nothing to do with Miami in particular.

[grandmarnnurse]

My question is-----why on earth would anyone carry important documents in their checked luggage?? That boggles my mind how anyone would do that? Carnival was not at fault here. It was the stupidity of the passenger. I carry all our cruise documents, reservations, ID, and passports on me.

 

 

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[Maven3]

My question is-----why on earth would anyone carry important documents in their checked luggage?? That boggles my mind how anyone would do that? Carnival was not at fault here. It was the stupidity of the passenger. I carry all our cruise documents, reservations, ID, and passports on me.

 

 

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It wasn't necessarily checked until it got to the port, they may have carried it on the plane -- or driven to the port. I could see a backpack or other carry on case accidentally be given to the porter. Then when they got to the desk where they needed the docs, she asked for the bag and they realized it got turned over to the porter. I am sure it was a heart sinking moment -- it would be for me anyway. It is best for "mom" to carry all the docs in her purse to keep them all together, but stuff happens. It was an expensive learning experience for all of them.

 

If they had trip insurance, would the $300 pp fine be covered? Probably, plus the expense of getting to Key West would be reimbursed too.

 

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[dd likes to cruise]

It wasn't necessarily checked until it got to the port, they may have carried it on the plane -- or driven to the port. I could see a backpack or other carry on case accidentally be given to the porter. Then when they got to the desk where they needed the docs, she asked for the bag and they realized it got turned over to the porter. I am sure it was a heart sinking moment -- it would be for me anyway. It is best for "mom" to carry all the docs in her purse to keep them all together, but stuff happens. It was an expensive learning experience for all of them.

 

If they had trip insurance, would the $300 pp fine be covered? Probably, plus the expense of getting to Key West would be reimbursed too.

 

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Maybe not. Insurance is to cover accidents. And Insurance companies may not call that an accident, but someone not paying attention and having responsibility for their own actions.

 

And if it was in their luggage on a plane that was a no no also. What if their luggage got misplaced by the airline? Happens everyday.

 

Important papers stay on the person!

[thinfool]

If they had trip insurance, would the $300 pp fine be covered? Probably, plus the expense of getting to Key West would be reimbursed too.

 

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Does insurance reimburse expenses incurred from illegal activity?

 

If I rented a car to catch the ship and got a $300. traffic ticket for speeding on the way to Key West would the insurance reimburse me for the ticket?

[Maven3]

Maybe not. Insurance is to cover accidents. And Insurance companies may not call that an accident, but someone not paying attention and having responsibility for their own actions.

 

And if it was in their luggage on a plane that was a no no also. What if their luggage got misplaced by the airline? Happens everyday.

 

Important papers stay on the person!

As a mom who regularly travels with 3 kids, I can say sh** happens. I always have all of my party's doc in my possession, I don't allow the kids to hold them except when we are actually in the customs line, when they get through, all docs go back to me. The docs didn't get lost on an airplane, they accidentally were sent on the ship ahead of them. A mistake -- everyone has made a mistake or two in their life. I doubt they will make the same one twice.

 

It is not "illegal" to send your luggage onto the ship, it was a mistake that cost them each a $300 fine. If they got into a car accident on the way to the ship (even if it was their fault) the insurance would cover their delay. My AmEx card would reimburse for the fines & extra travel expenses.

 

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[bUU]

As a mom who regularly travels with 3 kids, I can say sh** happens.

I think, though, that dd's point was that insurance covers specific situations, not a more generic "stuff happens" set of situations. There is special "cancel for any reason" riders, but even there it isn't "any cost for any reason" - it covers only the prepaid, non-refundable amounts declared prior to the date declared as the first day of coverage, and only if you don't go.

 

Read your policy very carefully to make sure you understand what insurance will cover, and rest assured that if the policy doesn't say that something is covered then it probably is not.

 

My AmEx card would reimburse for the fines ...

This would be great. I also paid with AmEx. Could you please indicate what part of the travel benefit says that it will cover fines?

 

... & extra travel expenses.

Again, it would be great if AmEx would cover things that private insurance does not. Here's what my Nationwide cruise-specific insurance policy says with regard to when they will cover extra travel expenses in the case of interruption:

a) Any delay of a Common Carrier (including Inclement Weather).

b) Any delay by a traffic accident en route to a departure, in which You or a Traveling Companion is not directly involved.

c) Any delay due to lost or stolen passports, travel documents or money, Quarantine, hijacking, unannounced Strike, natural disaster, civil commotion or riot.

d) A closed roadway causing cessation of travel to the destination of the Trip (substantiated by the department of

transportation, state police, etc.)

I suppose we could claim we "lost" our passports and then subsequently "found" them when we finally boarded the cruise ship, but that would feel like lying to me.

[dd likes to cruise]

I understand mistakes happen. The person making the mistakes owns up to it and pays the fine and fixes their mistake. They don't expect the cruiseline to handle it for them. I'm just not sure why the OP cares really, it wasn't his family. Acts like the 300.00 fine is outrageous.