NOROVIRUS on Solstice

[SkystheLimit]

I mean that the odds go up for several back to back re-infections, yes there is a chance that it might be random, but there is a chance that I might win the lottery.

But I would ensure that Celebrity had to prove in an English court (I am assuming I booked this and a booking in UK is covered by English courts) then Celebrity would have to prove they did everything possible to clean the ship, including taking it out of service after the third outbreak and not have patches of mould on showers etc (read the earlier op's post) where bugs can hide.

 

Can someone post which other ship has had so many back to back outbreaks. It is endemic and I am so glad that I have not booked that fictional cruise I spoke about earlier.

 

 

The Oceania Riviera 2016. We were there. Fortunately, we were spared. Just curious--are you booked on the Solstice in the near future?

[chengkp75]

I mean that the odds go up for several back to back re-infections, yes there is a chance that it might be random, but there is a chance that I might win the lottery.

But I would ensure that Celebrity had to prove in an English court (I am assuming I booked this and a booking in UK is covered by English courts) then Celebrity would have to prove they did everything possible to clean the ship, including taking it out of service after the third outbreak and not have patches of mould on showers etc (read the earlier op's post) where bugs can hide.

 

Can someone post which other ship has had so many back to back outbreaks. It is endemic and I am so glad that I have not booked that fictional cruise I spoke about earlier.

 

What "odds" are you talking about? The odds that you will contract noro, or the odds that the ship is the cause of the continued outbreak? If the latter, you may consider it to be a probability exercise, but I would go by the research done by some of the best epidemiologists in the world, the CDC, who are monitoring the Solstice. And, while I don't claim to be an expert in English law, Celebrity would not need to prove that they "did everything possible", but just to prove that they did what was required by world recognized epidemiologists. "Everything possible" could be interpreted to mean ripping out the entire interior of the ship. I believe the burden of proof is tempered with "reasonable".

[fshagan]

Yes. And only bleach will kill it and bleach is a prohibited substance on cruise ships.

 

No, that is not true. Bleach might be prohibited as a surface cleaner due to damage it may do to guests clothes, but bleach is in no way prohibited from cruise lines. The same sodium hypochlorite solution that is in household bleach is used to sanitize the drinking water everywhere on the ship.

 

And there are substances other than bleach that kill norovirus, including hydrogen peroxide. This PDF file contains a list of over 75 commercial sanitizing solutions that the EPA has cleared for commercial use to kill norovirus.

[fshagan]

<snipped portion regarding consumer grade hand sanitizers>

 

Germstar Noro is basically alcohol, at the lower end of the GRASE I concentration (63%, so it may have been reclassed lately, I just haven't seen anything about it), and I find it's claims that the "emollients" in the formula aid in killing the virus interesting. Emollients are moisturizers, and are added to counteract the drying effect of that concentration of alcohol.

 

As recently as June 2016, the FDA was requesting more information on the effectiveness of alcohol, isopropyl ahcohol, and benzothonium chloride. So, the FDA is still not convinced that alcohol in concentrations like Germstar Noro are effective when used in a "leave on" type of sanitizer.

 

Germstar has dropped the claim they are effective against norovirus specifically, and now say they are "99.99% effective" in their FAQs while mentioning ebola and norovirus elsewhere on their website. I'm pretty certain that "99.99% effective" is required to be called a "sanitizer" but that standard applies to bacteria alone (I'm working from memory here from when I was involved with a ozone water sanitizing company). I searched and didn't find any FDA "cease and desist" letters against Germstar, but my recollection is that they did claim it. You can find blog articles and the like referencing their prior statement back around 2010. I didn't do a search and update myself before posting, so yeah, I was wrong about Germstar.

 

One of the problems with norovirus is they don't have a good way to test effectiveness because they can't get it grow in a lab easily. So they use a substitute for the virus:

 

Note: Evidence for efficacy of a cleaning agent against norovirus is usually based on studies using feline calicivirus (FCV)—a virus related to norovirus—as a surrogate. However, FCV and norovirus exhibit different physiochemical properties; thus, it is unclear whether inactivation of FCV by a specific cleaning agent reflects efficacy of such solutions against norovirus.

From: https://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/preventing-infection.html

 

One of the interviews of a disease control expert I read a while back mentioned that they had a hard time proving what killed the virus because of this inability to grow it in a lab environment. They can test infected surfaces for the virus in the field, but that makes it hard to do repeatable science. I just did a search and it looks like that in 2016 some American scientists at Baylor College of Medicine figured out how to grow it. We should have some good data in a year or two on what actually works.

 

I think it's important to remember that soap and water do not kill norovirus either. I suspect the soap makes the water "wetter" (acting as a surfactant) and the running water washes the virus down the drain. Wiping your hands on a clean disposable towel probably removes more of the virus particles.

 

That consumer info page from the CDC quoted above also says:

 

 

Alcohol-based hand sanitizers can be used in addition to hand washing. But, they should not be used as a substitute for washing with soap and water.

 

I think that's a reasonable approach. I'm concerned that the statements that the hand sanitizer "does nothing" will lead people to bypass them. We really don't know if it helps at all or not, but it does no harm, so we should use it. Not to the exclusion of soap and water hand washing, but in combination with it.

[villauk]

Google is your friend

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm#2017

 

If this list is accurate, it appears Celebrity doesnt have very many outbreaks.

 

 

Cruise lines only have to inform the CDC if the ship visits US ports that’s why any outbreaks in Europe are not reported unless they visit a US port (it explains this on the CDC link). So the list doesn’t contain every outbreak. From the link:

‘When sailing from a foreign port to a U.S. port, cruise ships participating in the Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP) are required to report the total number of gastrointestinal (GI) illness cases–including zero–evaluated by the medical staff at least 24 hours before the ship arrives at the U.S. port.’

 

 

 

Can someone post which other ship has had so many back to back outbreaks. It is endemic and I am so glad that I have not booked that fictional cruise I spoke about earlier.

 

I did post on the other thread concerning this outbreak that Equinox was in the same position a few years ago whilst in Europe ;). Lasted months.

https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2241351

[letsgocrusing]

I’m on the ship now. I was told by a crew member the problem started at Bora Bora. That said, there have been no new cases this cruise. The captain said, starting tomorrow morning (Nov 16) the high levels of precaution will be lifted. The buffet will go back to self service.

 

 

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[AnOnymously]

I think that's a reasonable approach. I'm concerned that the statements that the hand sanitizer "does nothing" will lead people to bypass them. We really don't know if it helps at all or not, but it does no harm, so we should use it. Not to the exclusion of soap and water hand washing, but in combination with it.

My comments etc about hand sanitisers have been in the context of this thread, they are however effective against other infections and that makes them very worthwhile.

[Ex-vogue model]

Cruise lines only have to inform the CDC if the ship visits US ports that’s why any outbreaks in Europe are not reported unless they visit a US port (it explains this on the CDC link). So the list doesn’t contain every outbreak. From the link:

‘When sailing from a foreign port to a U.S. port, cruise ships participating in the Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP) are required to report the total number of gastrointestinal (GI) illness cases–including zero–evaluated by the medical staff at least 24 hours before the ship arrives at the U.S. port.’

 

I did post on the other thread concerning this outbreak that Equinox was in the same position a few years ago whilst in Europe ;). Lasted months.

https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2241351[/

 

Hi Jenny, I was on the Equinox around the Med in July 2015 with hubby and our daughter and thankfully we never caught the bug. Lots of people did get very sick.but we did adhere to all the usual hand washing, hand sanitizing, not touching handrails/elevator buttons, and using a paper towel to open toilet doors etc. We never went to the buffet, always ensured we were served and this really does help. I've just bought several bottles of Germstar hand spray and hope it works - was very reliable for our Asia cruise last Christmas! Can't believe it's nearly 12 months since we were on that cruise. Had such a great time. Hope you all have a fab time this year! :p

[Redking]

I’m on the ship now. I was told by a crew member the problem started at Bora Bora. That said, there have been no new cases this cruise. The captain said, starting tomorrow morning (Nov 16) the high levels of precaution will be lifted. The buffet will go back to self service.

 

 

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Thanks for sharing. That is good news, we sail on the cruise after you. Enjoy!

[dkjretired]

Here is a link to a website that does illnesses and incidents on cruise ships. I have followed this web site for many years and it appears to be very accurate and always has been. There is a short story on the Solstice in the past month. If you actually read the web site and are honest you will find out that what occurred on Solstice is not uncommon and has happened numerous times over the years on other lines and other cruise ships. Actually contrary to some of the claims on this board, Celebrity is at the lower end of number of outbreaks.

 

http://www.cruisejunkie.com/events.html

[chengkp75]

 

I think it's important to remember that soap and water do not kill norovirus either. I suspect the soap makes the water "wetter" (acting as a surfactant) and the running water washes the virus down the drain. Wiping your hands on a clean disposable towel probably removes more of the virus particles.

 

 

Exactly right. Soap is a lubricant or surfactant. Think about it, it is animal fat and lye. It breaks the surface tension between the first, dead, layer of skin cells that have the germs on them, and the underlying cells, so that everything is washed down the drain. The emollients in things like Germstar act in the same way, but as I recommend, unless you wipe the Germstar off with a clean paper towel before it dries, you've just moved the virus around on your hands.

[tromvest]

Letsgocruising:

 

Thanks so much for the update. We will board November 25th and your post lessens my anxiety level hearing there are no new cases on this current sailing. Let’s hope it stays this way.

 

Enjoy the Solstice

[villauk]

Hi Jenny, I was on the Equinox around the Med in July 2015 with hubby and our daughter and thankfully we never caught the bug. Lots of people did get very sick.but we did adhere to all the usual hand washing, hand sanitizing, not touching handrails/elevator buttons, and using a paper towel to open toilet doors etc. We never went to the buffet, always ensured we were served and this really does help. I've just bought several bottles of Germstar hand spray and hope it works - was very reliable for our Asia cruise last Christmas! Can't believe it's nearly 12 months since we were on that cruise. Had such a great time. Hope you all have a fab time this year! :p

 

Hi to you too :*. We also were fine on Equinox during the 2015 outbreak; the boys hands were red raw from all the washing and gel. Same in Thailand last year, I remember our guide from BKK saying we were too hygienic :D.

 

Have a brilliant cruise.

Jen x

[phoenix_dream]

Sue, sue, sue. And people wonder why insurance prices are so high. Even ridiculous lawsuits cost money to adjudicate.

 

Celebrity does an excellent job with sanitation on their ships and sometimes it just plain is not enough. For example, if a particular ship sails multiple sailings from a port where norovirus is running rampant, then odds are that no matter how well they clean passengers boarding will bring the virus back onboard. Another example - many cruises include back-to-back passengers. All it takes is one of those passengers (or crew for that matter) to be infected and here it comes again on the next cruise. You can shed the virus for up to 2 weeks after you have it, so obviously B2B passengers or crew could inadvertently be infecting people that way as well.

 

When multiple cruises experience the virus then Celebrity does in fact take extra precautions and do an even deeper cleaning, generally delaying boarding for several hours (which of course people also complain about). Happened to us on our Infinity Panama Canal cruise this past April. Several cruises before us had outbreaks, and the ship was operating in 'code red' as they used to call it. Thankfully, after the more thorough cleaning and continuation of enhanced protocols onboard they were able to return the ship back to 'normal' after a few days and it stayed that way the rest of our 15 night trip.

[OIAIO]

This thread got started to make people aware of what is going on, not as a anti Celebrity campaign.

[bwbmom]

Letsgocruising:

 

Thanks so much for the update. We will board November 25th and your post lessens my anxiety level hearing there are no new cases on this current sailing. Let’s hope it stays this way.

 

Enjoy the Solstice

We leave on the 6th of December so would love to hear back from you to see how the Nov 25th cruise does! Have a great trip & stay healthy!:cool:

[fshagan]

My comments etc about hand sanitisers have been in the context of this thread, they are however effective against other infections and that makes them very worthwhile.

 

Well, to be more precise, we can't say the hand sanitizers are NOT at least partially effective against norovirus. They haven't been able to prove they ARE effective to the satisfaction of agencies like the FDA or EPA, mainly due to the impossibility of actually testing the solutions against the actual virus. That's a far cry from saying they are "not effective" which the CDC pointedly does not do. Use it, because we don't know if it helps or not.

 

If the act of using the hand sanitizer wipes out only 10% of the virus particles it could be called "not effective" in general by health agencies. But if you have just enough of the virus on your hand to infect you the next time you touch your eye, and the hand sanitizer wipes out 10% of them, then the hand sanitizer is 100% effective at preventing the infection in you.

 

Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

[dkjretired]

This thread got started to make people aware of what is going on, not as a anti Celebrity campaign.

 

You are the OP and your thread starter was definitely a hit job on Celebrity, no way else you can spin it.

[ronews]

Everyone has heard...touch elevator buttons with knuckle...don't touch hand rails etc...wash hands. But hygiene after going to washroom...a lot of kids on board is bad we were all kids who washed there hands? I never shake hands on the cruise. Fist bump! But now I am going to raise an issue that may be sensitive to some people. I avoid contacting people in wheel chairs. It may sound cruel to say this but because of their disability they may not be able to be as hygienic after going to washroom. Also if they have to wheel themselves around and their hands are touching the wheels they pick up every germ on the floors. Look at the seniors homes in your area. They are always closing areas of the home because of Noro out breaks .I am a senior so I mean no disregard.. Just the facts as I see them

[tromvest]

We leave on the 6th of December so would love to hear back from you to see how the Nov 25th cruise does! Have a great trip & stay healthy!:cool:

 

Bwbmom, I will post on this thread during our cruise and give you an update on the “health” of the ship. Hopefully I’ll be relaying good news.

[Bo1953]

And your point is?

I believe that you know the point, if not don't worry about it.

 

Bon voyage

 

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[vmcpa]

I’m on the ship now. I was told by a crew member the problem started at Bora Bora. That said, there have been no new cases this cruise. The captain said, starting tomorrow morning (Nov 16) the high levels of precaution will be lifted. The buffet will go back to self service.

 

 

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Please keep us posted as we are on the Dec 9th cruise.

[Mystictraveler]

I am currently on the Solstice and can confirm we are back to normal procedures thanks to the very hard work of the crew and diligence of my fellow passengers. I can also tell you that I became ill the first night but with only one symptom. This was not something I picked up on the ship but somewhere else like an airplane or hotel. I was isolated in my cabin for 48 hours. They treated linens and paper goods that left our cabin like bio hazards. And after speaking with the hotel director after my isolation, I learned he was personally aware of my case as he told me what I had for dinner the night I became ill. So as others have mentioned, it is us humans who can cause problems on a ship, not the ship. Kudos to Celebrity.

 

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[OIAIO]

I am currently on the Solstice and can confirm we are back to normal procedures thanks to the very hard work of the crew and diligence of my fellow passengers. I can also tell you that I became ill the first night but with only one symptom. This was not something I picked up on the ship but somewhere else like an airplane or hotel. I was isolated in my cabin for 48 hours. They treated linens and paper goods that left our cabin like bio hazards. And after speaking with the hotel director after my isolation, I learned he was personally aware of my case as he told me what I had for dinner the night I became ill. So as others have mentioned, it is us humans who can cause problems on a ship, not the ship. Kudos to Celebrity.

 

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That is exactle the good news I was waiting for!

now we can have a good cruise to come to.

thanks for that information, it really helps!

now everybody coming onto the cruise, dont bring the virus with you please>

[bwbmom]

I am currently on the Solstice and can confirm we are back to normal procedures thanks to the very hard work of the crew and diligence of my fellow passengers. I can also tell you that I became ill the first night but with only one symptom. This was not something I picked up on the ship but somewhere else like an airplane or hotel. I was isolated in my cabin for 48 hours. They treated linens and paper goods that left our cabin like bio hazards. And after speaking with the hotel director after my isolation, I learned he was personally aware of my case as he told me what I had for dinner the night I became ill. So as others have mentioned, it is us humans who can cause problems on a ship, not the ship. Kudos to Celebrity.

 

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So just curious where you ate that dinner that made you so ill? Glad you are better and the ship is back to normal.