Ending of a cruise and gratuities

[Havingfun2010]

Hi CC:

 

The cruise I'm on is coming to an end in two days time. :(.

 

I'm curious:

 

- If you've prepaid the gratuities before hand. Do you usually leave a few bucks more for your waiters and stateroom attendants, and if so, how much?

 

- I'm curious what the pay structure of the employees that are paid with gratuities are like. I've heard everything from low base plus tips. And I've also heard employees telling me that they don't get a base and just get paid via tips.

 

The wife works in HR and we are just a little surprised at this. (At least by our Canadian standards) it just seems that they earn very little for the amount of hard work and terrible conditions they have to do.

 

Cheers

 

Terrible conditions? It's a ship! They also made a choice. Most find the pay far exceeding what they would get at home. Sometimes, we impose "our" standard of living onto what other countries find acceptable. What you think is very little, might be upper middle class for them. However, like everything in life, I don't concern myself with the pay scale of others, and in particular others in other countries. I give extra tips, based on what I deem is appropriate. I don't tip more because I feel sorry.

[SRF]

Sorry, I dont buy this one bit. There are 200 odd countries in the world and 84 of the richest nations in the world don't count. Why are ships worldwide flying the flag of convenience of the third world countries like Panama and the likes. Your theory about the IMO and the ILO is correct but reality is something else.

 

Maybe because it is difficult to be a flagged vessel from a land locked country. :D

 

And you know this HOW? Compared to a person who WORKS on ships???????

[SRF]

Terrible conditions? It's a ship! They also made a choice. Most find the pay far exceeding what they would get at home. Sometimes, we impose "our" standard of living onto what other countries find acceptable. What you think is very little, might be upper middle class for them. However, like everything in life, I don't concern myself with the pay scale of others, and in particular others in other countries. I give extra tips, based on what I deem is appropriate. I don't tip more because I feel sorry.

 

Yes, people from US/Canada/Europe and a few other countries do not understand that in MANY countries, the average ANNUAL income for a FAMILY is under $300.

 

Yes, PER YEAR.

 

I tip above the auto/pre-paid grats for service above and beyond the base level.

 

Last cruise, I tipped the room steward (she was great) and a couple of tips to the pool bar staff (also great and friendly), and the concierge (very helpful).

[chengkp75]

Sorry, I dont buy this one bit. There are 200 odd countries in the world and 84 of the richest nations in the world don't count. Why are ships worldwide flying the flag of convenience of the third world countries like Panama and the likes. Your theory about the IMO and the ILO is correct but reality is something else.

 

Let's see what that list of "84 of the richest nations" that have ratified the MLC contains:

 

Philippines

Malaysia

Myanmar

Sri Lanka

Thailand

Tunisia

Morocco

India

Ghana

Gabon

Bangladesh

Albania

 

Sure sounds like all the places that have the highest standards of living to me. :rolleyes:

 

Even if a crew member from Malaysia is being paid $18,000/year, that is still less than mariners make from the "developed" or "richest nations" pay their mariners. A case in point is NCL's POA, which must pay Hawaii minimum wage, so using the same calculations I did previously, the crew minimum for a 14 hour work day is $3700/month, or twice the international minimum.

 

Let's see, I've worked in the maritime industry for 42 years, and I know crew costs, both US flag and foreign flag, and why ships fly flags of convenience. The crew cost is a part of it, but by no means the largest part. What really separates US crew cost from international crew cost, above the twice amount (and trained US seafarers, (as opposed to cruise ship hotel crew) make far more than the Hawaiian minimum listed above) iis insurance costs. US crew are entitled to compensation as well as medical care costs while unemployed due to a shipboard injury, while international crew are only entitled to medical care for the injury. And we all know about the "bad back" and "whiplash" claims, which are ripe in the maritime field.

 

Much of the advantage of flying a flag of convenience is the ability to avoid things like consumer protection, environmental regulations, safety regulations, taxes, and registration fees.

[dwayneb236]

Hard to believe someone would question Chief.

[chengkp75]

Couple of further thoughts.

 

There have been examples of "port states", Brazil (also on the richest nation list?) is one I can think of off the top of my head, that have detained cruise ships for violations of the MLC with regards to hotel staff pay.

 

And, a clarification. The base wage paid by the cruise line is nowhere near the $3.83 I mentioned above. The base wage will almost never even reach the monthly minimum of $614. So, of the $1400-1800/month I quoted, probably $1300 or more is covered by the DSC. The only time the cruise line is required to step in and make the crew's wages good, is if the amount of DSC that is reduced/removed reduces their monthly figure to below the $614 figure. So, based on how the DSC goes, their wage can vary monthly from $600 to $1700.

[Foodluvr]

[quote name=AmazedByCruising;54605920

 

Do ships have "mystery guests" to find out if crew members forget about that? (If so' date=' where can I apply for the job? :))

 

[/quote]

 

Yes, mystery shoppers exist for cruises but I would not call it a vacation. It is about 4-6 hrs worth of work every day writing up all the reports. You also are out of pocket for expenses until your reports are approved and payment is usually 60 days out. It requires a tremendous amount of attention to detail and a decent memory.

 

You also typically start doing fast food shops for little pay for years before you get access to the good assignments. You can Google hospitality mystery shopping :D

 

I have been mystery shopping for years and do a fair amount of travel shops each year. I still prefer to cruise for fun, much more enjoyable!

[egh170]

I don't know if you realize this that according to RCCL employee regulations, cash tips are to be turned in to the ship. Failure to do so (if caught) subjects the employee to dismissal. RCCL reasoning is that all tips are to be shared with the appropriate people. This is a rip-off to the employee who may deserve a larger tip for better service.

[chengkp75]

I don't know if you realize this that according to RCCL employee regulations, cash tips are to be turned in to the ship. Failure to do so (if caught) subjects the employee to dismissal. RCCL reasoning is that all tips are to be shared with the appropriate people. This is a rip-off to the employee who may deserve a larger tip for better service.

 

I believe that only tips received from those cabins that have reduced/removed the DSC are to be turned in, or if all are, then only those from those cabins who reduced/removed the DSC are pooled, the rest are returned to the crew member who received them.

[dreadpirate3]

Thank you, Chief, for your valuable input.

 

We always tip more, because we appreciate the hard work done on our behalf, and we prepay gratuities as well. Sometimes it's the Asst MDR Waiter, last time it was the MDR Waiter, but everyone that serves us daily gets an envelope with some cash.

[ToothDoc78]

We usually tip $20-$40 extra at the end for waiter/asst. waiter and cabin steward. Last cruise we were in a 2 bedroom family suite and our attendant was awesome- left him $100. Usually tip an additional $1-5 for drink service as well. This is just our personal philosophy and we budget for it with the vacation. Many of the crew are away from family for months at a time and many are supporting extended family.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GUT2407]

This thread is a great argument AGAINT including tips in the fare, in some parts of the world anyway, there’ll always be those who insist on tipping more again, leading crew to expect it everywhere from everyone.

[lbjen]

Like most, we leave an extra $20 per cabin if the service is good. We don’t eat in the MDR enough to justify leaving an additional tip, but we are sure to compliment staff by name if we enjoyed their service. And of course we pay our auto gratuities.

[DT1304]

I always prepay tips and consider this as part of the cruise fare.

 

Then on day 1 when I meet my cabin attendant I tip him an additional $20. I always get amazing service after that, and have sometimes (but not always) given another $20 at the end.

 

I have always had amazing waiters and assistant waiters in the MDR, and have always left a tip of $20 each at the end.

 

I have never added a tip to any other staff apart from what is automatically added.

[Merion_Mom]

I pre booked almost everything so avoiding it for cruise this week, but most likely would give a small tip for good service

 

 

 

Thanks for your answer. [emoji4]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[zdad59]

"I don't believe in tipping. I believe in over tipping."

---Todd Wilkinson

 

[zdad59]

Let's see, I've worked in the maritime industry for 42 years, and I know crew costs, both US flag and foreign flag, and why ships fly flags of convenience. The crew cost is a part of it, but by no means the largest part. What really separates US crew cost from international crew cost, above the twice amount (and trained US seafarers, (as opposed to cruise ship hotel crew) make far more than the Hawaiian minimum listed above) iis insurance costs. US crew are entitled to compensation as well as medical care costs while unemployed due to a shipboard injury, while international crew are only entitled to medical care for the injury. And we all know about the "bad back" and "whiplash" claims, which are ripe in the maritime field.

 

Much of the advantage of flying a flag of convenience is the ability to avoid things like consumer protection, environmental regulations, safety regulations, taxes, and registration fees.

 

Just because you've been a mariner for 42 years, and have a comprehensive knowledge of maritime law, vessel working standards and requirements, and ship board operations, do you really think you know more than an experienced cruiser that sails in a Junior Suite 3 or 4 times a year ??? :D:D:D:D

 

I enjoy your comprehensive and well thought out commentary.

 

Fair seas and following winds Chief.

[George C]

Wonder what the original poster thinks of thread with he simple question what do you Tip?

[datolim]

Let's see what that list of "84 of the richest nations" that have ratified the MLC contains:

 

Philippines

Malaysia

Myanmar

Sri Lanka

Thailand

Tunisia

Morocco

India

Ghana

Gabon

Bangladesh

Albania

 

Sure sounds like all the places that have the highest standards of living to me. :rolleyes:

 

Even if a crew member from Malaysia is being paid $18,000/year, that is still less than mariners make from the "developed" or "richest nations" pay their mariners. A case in point is NCL's POA, which must pay Hawaii minimum wage, so using the same calculations I did previously, the crew minimum for a 14 hour work day is $3700/month, or twice the international minimum.

 

Let's see, I've worked in the maritime industry for 42 years, and I know crew costs, both US flag and foreign flag, and why ships fly flags of convenience. The crew cost is a part of it, but by no means the largest part. What really separates US crew cost from international crew cost, above the twice amount (and trained US seafarers, (as opposed to cruise ship hotel crew) make far more than the Hawaiian minimum listed above) iis insurance costs. US crew are entitled to compensation as well as medical care costs while unemployed due to a shipboard injury, while international crew are only entitled to medical care for the injury. And we all know about the "bad back" and "whiplash" claims, which are ripe in the maritime field.

 

Much of the advantage of flying a flag of convenience is the ability to avoid things like consumer protection, environmental regulations, safety regulations, taxes, and registration fees.

Let us not get into the weeds here.

Your original premise of this is the law or "By law" is you put it is a fallacy.

The IMO and the ILO have no authority what so ever to pass laws. They have recommendations or ideal positions which even the rich nations like the US do not follow. There are as some would put, just "talking shops"

You defeat your own arguement when you said countries can impose IMO and ILO "recommendations" on user countries with flag of convenience. Why the cruise ships homeport in the USA just don't follow these recommendations. Let just start with giving the crew 1 day off per week. China impose this on cruise ships homeport in China. The US do not.

The dirty little secret in the cruise industry is the cruise company can employ third world countries personnel at as little as US300/months and work them 70 to 80 hours per week. Some would say this is slavery nowadays. The flip side is that the US consumer can enjoy cruises at bargain basement prices.

[chengkp75]

Let us not get into the weeds here.

Your original premise of this is the law or "By law" is you put it is a fallacy.

The IMO and the ILO have no authority what so ever to pass laws. They have recommendations or ideal positions which even the rich nations like the US do not follow. There are as some would put, just "talking shops"

You defeat your own arguement when you said countries can impose IMO and ILO "recommendations" on user countries with flag of convenience. Why the cruise ships homeport in the USA just don't follow these recommendations. Let just start with giving the crew 1 day off per week. China impose this on cruise ships homeport in China. The US do not.

The dirty little secret in the cruise industry is the cruise company can employ third world countries personnel at as little as US300/months and work them 70 to 80 hours per week. Some would say this is slavery nowadays. The flip side is that the US consumer can enjoy cruises at bargain basement prices.

"

 

I never said the IMO or ILO could impose their requirements on flag states. I said that nations that ratify the conventions must pass enabling legislation to incorporate the convention language into national law. This is the basis of all international conventions, such as SOLAS (or do you believe that SOLAS is not enforceable on flags of convenience ships?). The cruise ships that homeport in the US do follow the MLC, SOLAS, and STCW conventions of the IMO (which language is incorporated into US federal law), and the USCG can inspect those ships to ensure compliance with these international conventions, since the US has ratified SOLAS, MLC, and STCW. However, as I've also stated, the USCG has more restrictive requirements for US flag ships, that they cannot enforce on foreign flag ships.

 

As I've listed, the major "flags of convenience", Panama, Liberia, Bahamas, and Marshall Islands, which account for 80% of the world's ocean-going tonnage, have all ratified the MLC 2006 convention.

 

China can impose a one day a week time off on Chinese flag ships, not on foreign flag ships that may "homeport" in China.

 

Please give your source for your claim that "can employ third world countries personnel at as little as US300/months"? I've given you my facts, what are yours?

 

And, news flash, nearly every seafarer in the world, myself included on a US flag ship, work a minimum of 84 hours/week (12 hours/day seven days a week). And the STCW convention, which of course you don't believe is applicable to "flags of convenience") mandates a maximum of 98 hours per 7 day period.

 

Here's a link to the Philippine's STCW government website: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5tvG6ytPXAhXLgVQKHSFqDQgQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstcw.marina.gov.ph%2F&usg=AOvVaw1CIBQ82kcJh1J0mVwTTnBE

 

And here is a link where the Philippines ratified the MCL:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQvbLdytPXAhXLq1QKHcnxBGsQFghIMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dole.gov.ph%2Fgood_news%2Fview%2F132&usg=AOvVaw3a0vl3OBS1UDrTRTlJm_IK

 

And the Philippines provide 30% of the entire world's merchant mariners.

[frank808]

Yes, mystery shoppers exist for cruises but I would not call it a vacation. It is about 4-6 hrs worth of work every day writing up all the reports. You also are out of pocket for expenses until your reports are approved and payment is usually 60 days out. It requires a tremendous amount of attention to detail and a decent memory.

 

You also typically start doing fast food shops for little pay for years before you get access to the good assignments. You can Google hospitality mystery shopping :D

 

I have been mystery shopping for years and do a fair amount of travel shops each year. I still prefer to cruise for fun, much more enjoyable!

Didn't know you were a mystery shopper or still are. Do you know anyone that has been a mystery shopper on cruise ships?

 

BTW is your next cruise oct 21? I booked 2 boardwalk cabins so far. Can't commit to the suites yet because of nrd. When our plans firm up we will move cabins.

 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk

[DaisyL]

"

 

I never said the IMO or ILO could impose their requirements on flag states. I said that nations that ratify the conventions must pass enabling legislation to incorporate the convention language into national law. This is the basis of all international conventions, such as SOLAS (or do you believe that SOLAS is not enforceable on flags of convenience ships?). The cruise ships that homeport in the US do follow the MLC, SOLAS, and STCW conventions of the IMO (which language is incorporated into US federal law), and the USCG can inspect those ships to ensure compliance with these international conventions, since the US has ratified SOLAS, MLC, and STCW. However, as I've also stated, the USCG has more restrictive requirements for US flag ships, that they cannot enforce on foreign flag ships.

 

As I've listed, the major "flags of convenience", Panama, Liberia, Bahamas, and Marshall Islands, which account for 80% of the world's ocean-going tonnage, have all ratified the MLC 2006 convention.

 

China can impose a one day a week time off on Chinese flag ships, not on foreign flag ships that may "homeport" in China.

 

Please give your source for your claim that "can employ third world countries personnel at as little as US300/months"? I've given you my facts, what are yours?

 

And, news flash, nearly every seafarer in the world, myself included on a US flag ship, work a minimum of 84 hours/week (12 hours/day seven days a week). And the STCW convention, which of course you don't believe is applicable to "flags of convenience") mandates a maximum of 98 hours per 7 day period.

 

Here's a link to the Philippine's STCW government website: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5tvG6ytPXAhXLgVQKHSFqDQgQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstcw.marina.gov.ph%2F&usg=AOvVaw1CIBQ82kcJh1J0mVwTTnBE

 

And here is a link where the Philippines ratified the MCL:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQvbLdytPXAhXLq1QKHcnxBGsQFghIMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dole.gov.ph%2Fgood_news%2Fview%2F132&usg=AOvVaw3a0vl3OBS1UDrTRTlJm_IK

 

And the Philippines provide 30% of the entire world's merchant mariners.

 

 

I'm glad to finally read information that makes sense to me, thank you.

 

Having had family members, work in the service field in the US, NY specifically, we tend to over tip at home. On a cruise, we leave the pre paid tip in place for all, and give additional to those we feel do more.

 

We usually give extra on the last day to the 2 waiters in the main DR, our room steward, and our main bar server in each bar. It probably amounts to $2 - 3 per day/server, amounting to ~$150 extra, our last cruise. We realize it's not a lot but just a little thank you. Is it right or wrong, I don't know, but that's what we do.

 

There's only a few times we did not give extra..several years ago on a different line we did not give extra to the room steward...just left the auto amount in place.

 

In that case, he only serviced the room half the times in the evening, so we didn't get fresh towels or the newsletter at night. And one day, we came back to our cabin late afternoon, with the door left wide all day! Luckily, nothing was missing or disturbed in our cabin but we were rightfully upset. We had to talk to the area supervisor but stressed that although we were upset, we realize mistakes happen and just didn't want it to happen again.

 

Another time, we did not give extra to the 2 waiters in the MDR. They were very confused, always brought the wrong meals, very slow, missed courses, etc. making dinner tedious. We all just left the pre paid gratuity in place.

 

So that's twice in 25+ cruises we left the prepaid or suggested gratuity in place but all other cruises giving a small amount extra, with a note and exceptional rating.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[datolim]

"

 

I never said the IMO or ILO could impose their requirements on flag states. I said that nations that ratify the conventions must pass enabling legislation to incorporate the convention language into national law. This is the basis of all international conventions, such as SOLAS (or do you believe that SOLAS is not enforceable on flags of convenience ships?). The cruise ships that homeport in the US do follow the MLC, SOLAS, and STCW conventions of the IMO (which language is incorporated into US federal law), and the USCG can inspect those ships to ensure compliance with these international conventions, since the US has ratified SOLAS, MLC, and STCW. However, as I've also stated, the USCG has more restrictive requirements for US flag ships, that they cannot enforce on foreign flag ships.

 

As I've listed, the major "flags of convenience", Panama, Liberia, Bahamas, and Marshall Islands, which account for 80% of the world's ocean-going tonnage, have all ratified the MLC 2006 convention.

 

China can impose a one day a week time off on Chinese flag ships, not on foreign flag ships that may "homeport" in China.

 

Please give your source for your claim that "can employ third world countries personnel at as little as US300/months"? I've given you my facts, what are yours?

 

And, news flash, nearly every seafarer in the world, myself included on a US flag ship, work a minimum of 84 hours/week (12 hours/day seven days a week). And the STCW convention, which of course you don't believe is applicable to "flags of convenience") mandates a maximum of 98 hours per 7 day period.

 

Here's a link to the Philippine's STCW government website: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5tvG6ytPXAhXLgVQKHSFqDQgQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstcw.marina.gov.ph%2F&usg=AOvVaw1CIBQ82kcJh1J0mVwTTnBE

 

And here is a link where the Philippines ratified the MCL:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQvbLdytPXAhXLq1QKHcnxBGsQFghIMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dole.gov.ph%2Fgood_news%2Fview%2F132&usg=AOvVaw3a0vl3OBS1UDrTRTlJm_IK

 

 

 

And the Philippines provide 30% of the entire world's merchant mariners.

China has no own flagged cruise ships. I am talking about RCL and NCL. If China can impose the 1 day off per week why can't the US. This may be as far as I would go before we get into some other argi-bargi arguments.

[Hoopster95]

Hey Cheng, thank you for re-enforcing my tipping posts I made months ago from a direct conversation with a crew member that many here on this forum posted negatively against me.

[chengkp75]

China has no own flagged cruise ships. I am talking about RCL and NCL. If China can impose the 1 day off per week why can't the US. This may be as far as I would go before we get into some other argi-bargi arguments.

 

In this case, the 1 day a week off is part of the "staffing" agreement between the cruise lines and the staffing agency, so the government requirement is on the staffing agency, and not the cruise line, and would be a pre-condition of obtaining staff through them, and while it would only legally apply to those crew obtained by Chinese staffing agencies, it would most likely be applied by the line across the board. There are many requirements that staffing agencies in the Philippines and Malaysia place on crew hired through them, and if they wanted a day off, and their government passed a law requiring it, then it would be applied.