Class cruising has returned

[Two Wheels Only]

2 minutes ago, Greenpea2 said:

Agree with you Nic. I have tried this reasonable outlook on other endless complaint threads and it does nothing to staunch the flow. I don't understand it! Expressing displeasure and disappointment is important. But really, at some point it's clear (or should be) that money talks too, and THAT'S the only thing companies will listen to regarding change.

 

On the other hand, the backlash from the "...non-Haven guests in the Haven restaurant..." worked in favor of the Haven guests and will put less money in NCL's pocket (NCL will find another way to make up for it). 

[Greenpea2]

16 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

On the other hand, the backlash from the "...non-Haven guests in the Haven restaurant..." worked in favor of the Haven guests and will put less money in NCL's pocket (NCL will find another way to make up for it). 

Yes, I agree with this as well. What I am commenting on is not the complaints and reasons for them, it’s the continued complaints with no sign of “I will just cruise elsewhere”. A lot of people do this about all sorts of things in their lives. They deserve to feel however they feel, they deserve a voice and support. But after awhile, when they just don’t change anything action-wise and yet continue complaining, I get a headache, lol. What can I say.

[GA Dave]

6 hours ago, tjt87 said:

 

Still wealthy 1st world problem

OMG, you can afford internet access???  You must be rich!!!

[blueslily]

10 hours ago, ronbe65 said:

NCL Getaway forward sun deck.

Did they just expanded  the Vibe?

Yes, they just expanded the Vibe. Not a big deal.

Othello just constricted Desdemona's neck. Not a big deal.

In fact Othello killed Desdemona.

In fact the cruise line has "killed" their concept of "invisible" class division - industry best as of today (the Breakaway and the Escape are still safe). 

Now, as free access to the forward deck on the Getaway is closed, it's a blatant class division "in your face" accompanied by reduction in product quality for 95% of passengers.

 

Formerly public forward sun deck on Getaway:

 

 

The Vibe on NCL Getaway:

 

Pool deck on NCL Bliss:

 

 

At the same time: The Vibe on NCL Bliss

 

 

Haven Sun Deck on NCL Bliss:

 

 

Happy cruising!

 

Significant illustration

 

[sverigecruiser]

7 hours ago, elwood_98034 said:

I don't consider myself wealthy. I just work like a dog in a difficult ugly job that took me years at university and on the job to train to be able to do without killing people in the process. They pay me a lot of money to do it because the hours are rotten, and most people wouldn't want, nor be able to do it. I don't like doing it, but it is how I get money to pay the rent.

 

A person I work with was hating on me at work the other night for doing the cruise. She spends $20 on dinner every night. I take a sandwich or leftovers from home. I pointed out to her that if she and her husband each took a sandwich they would save $10k a year, and could go on a cruise a well. Silence... Last night she bought a sandwich.

 

With a salary around the average salary in Sweden I don't consider myself wealthy but compared to the more than 700,000,000 people around the world which has to survive on less than $2 every day I'm extremely wealthy!

[tjt87]

5 hours ago, GA Dave said:

OMG, you can afford internet access???  You must be rich!!!

Very compared with lots of people I've seen around the world who live well below the poverty line, and that includes people in England and the U.S

[Ronin23]

Long live class cruising. I shouldn’t have to mix with the riff raff and lower lifes if I am cruising in the Haven. They should be kept well away....less chance of getting sick also is a bonus. 👍

[tjt87]

1 hour ago, Ronin23 said:

Long live class cruising. I shouldn’t have to mix with the riff raff and lower lifes if I am cruising in the Haven. They should be kept well away....less chance of getting sick also is a bonus. 👍

 

Come the revolution comrade, you'll be the first. LOL

[Wedgie23]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that Haven ticket prices supplement the lower ticket prices and there for everyone owes some debt of gratitude to the Havens for lowering their fair. I don't understand where this sentiment is coming from. It was my understanding that the boom in cruising interest  has risen the price for ALL passengers well beyond typical inflation. Also, if it's only Haven the rest of us have to thank for being able to afford our cruise then why are NCL ticket prices more expensive across the board than Carnival and Royal who do not have Haven? NCL non haven passengers would be spending far less for a similar inside/balc cabin on RCL if Haven was footing some of their bill. 

 

I'm all for agreeing that people who pay more for a cabin deserve the better cabin and people who pay for better amenities deserve better amenities but I draw the line at the idea some of the Haven people feel they have paid the way for the rest of us because they have paid more. Earning statement also shows they were doing just fine with small vibes at 1/2 the cost of the current. Prices aren't being lowered so the extra income NCL is getting isn't helping any passengers, Haven or not. 

 

When comparing new ship layouts to old the issue isn't Haven/Vibe receiving extra it's them receiving what once belonged to the 'rest of us' and there now not being enough room for the rest of us because NCL has taken it too far. I expect if you pay more for your concert ticket than I do you're going to get a better seat. I don't expect they will put the front row on risers so tall no one else who bought a ticket can see. 

[thetaro]

It's total BS if you believe that Haven prices subsidize/supplement the inside/balcony.  People talk like inside/balcony has a negative margin which is simply not true. If that is the case why would NCL even bother selling inside/balcony? 

Haven is a higher profit margin product with a much less demand because of the higher price. You are subsidizing nobody, you are just giving NCL more profit. NCL won't charge non-haven less because of you paying more in haven. NCL would still charge the maximum price they can charge based on supply/demand.

 

Fact is NCL needs to find a balance between selling the two products in order to maximize profit. 

[newmexicoNita]

On 6/24/2019 at 10:24 AM, Lupush said:

Class cruising never left in my opinion.  It's always been there, just more cleverly marketed.

Good  answer. I agree and I see nothing wrong with this. As long as those of us who do not cruise 1st class are not totally overlooked. Heck dining in the specialty dining rooms usually has better service and flying business or 1st class offers better seats as well as drinks and meals. Do you get that in coach? NOPE 

[newmexicoNita]

11 hours ago, ronbe65 said:

 

Hi,

Let me respectfully disagree with some points.

The quality of cruising is not going down, it is changing. There is a big difference. And yes, CC is the place for reviews and discussions but when people, the same ones I might add, keep on complaining they don't help anyone or change anything and they come across as being, either very negative or unable to understand life isn't always the same for everyone and this isn't just cruising. 

[david_sobe]

Speaking of buying access, upgrades, or perks on cruises, everyone does realize NCL has been upcharging everyone with just booking a basic cruise.  They are upselling every cabin whether inside cabin or Haven with selling alcohol and meal packages claiming they are "free" and then charging gratuities.  You do realize that the cost of these perks are added to the price of the cruise?  Then NCL gets even more with us paying the service charges and gratuities for these packages.

So all of you complaining about class systems are inconsistent unless you are rejecting these packages

[momofmab]

The simple reason why NCL is making these changes is because they see that the demand for "exclusivity" is there.  Despite the relatively small number of people complaining on this site, they see with their own eyes that people will pay rack rate to sail in the Haven, that they will pay $500++ to sit in a wooden shack on the beach for a few hours (but there's a cooler of bottled water in there, I know),  that people will run, push and shove to get Vibe passes - even after the prices continue to rise.  People love to get something that not everyone else has.  Exclusivity.  The cruise lines are not suffering the price increases.  A glance at the average signature line on here shows that many have multiple future cruises booked at one time.

 

It's a no-brainer for them to expand "pay extra" exclusive areas because they  know that passengers will be pushing and shoving to get it.  If you and I get out of the line and go to other cruise companies, there are hundreds behind us, willing to step into our spot and pay the upcharges.   Many were excited that NCL backed off the non-Haven guests in the Haven restaurant thing, but I don't think that was ever going to be a big money maker for them anyway so not surprising to me that they backed off.  Better not to poke the guests paying the highest dollar to be on the ship. 

 

Until cruises start sailing half empty, it's unlikely that we'll see an end to nickel & diming.  Even after seeing the graphic of the Encore, I have no doubt that it will sail full for years to come.  People will book the cruise and either justify paying extra for the exclusive areas or deal with the over-crowding in the general areas.

[GA Dave]

Just a sanity check here.  WDW just announced an immediate 25% increase in their Annual Pass rates, a one-day park hopper ticket now costs $169, they announced a 10% resort room rate increase for 2020, and they now require resort guests to pay $19/day (going to $20 next year) parking fee at the resorts that they had not paid for the first 48 years of the complex' history.  Prices for leisure activities are going up everywhere due to the strong economy and will not come down until there is a major, worldwide recession/depression.

Edited June 26, 2019 by GA Dave

[softl]

Aw geez, $500 per day for a room and now they want you to pay for your car too?

 

[Nic6318]

13 hours ago, ronbe65 said:

 

Hi,

Let me respectfully disagree with some points.

 

Hi there

 

I read your position and while on discussion boards you can highlight any given "issue" as they arise, I was trying to suggest that the "issues" that you want to highlight for one company are in fact industry wide. Maybe not specifically the same for each, but generally if you read many of the cruise lines threads you will see that they all have "issues". 

 

These issues always have to do with cost cutting measures to increase profitability. This is no different than any company out there. You very rarely hear companies make a public announcement that sounds like "we want to keep the quality of the product our customers are purchasing at the same level that hey are used to, so we need to raise the price". While this is what many companies do, they are just hoping their customers appreciate it enough to stay with them. This works well where there is a more exclusive product. 

 

Mass market cruise lines do not fall into this category. They will cut where they can, and if they find a way to sell back the things they took away, they will. Those people who are willing to pay more for anything and everything are subsidizing those who don't.

 

Quibbling about every thing that changes gets you nowhere. After all, as I said, if you or anyone else goes to a "product" that is new to them, they will not know what has been changed. You have to judge the product for what it is now. As a consumer, you speak loudest with your wallet. You always need to find the best product for yourself. As you point out this is a discussion board, so I would think that if you/we find a "better product", that's what we need to be speaking out about rather than making a list of things that changed over the years since we started cruising. 

[Peachypooh]

I agree with those that say prices for hotels and other leisure activities like theme parks

have skyrocketed too. 5 years ago as a special treat we flew to Oahu and stayed in

a 2 bedroom 2 bath condo for $475 per night. I tried to book the same resort/same type room

for the same week (President's week) for next year and it was $850 per night. Basically double

in only 5 years? I just can't afford it so we are not going.

[Peachypooh]

16 hours ago, elwood_98034 said:

I don't consider myself wealthy. I just work like a dog in a difficult ugly job that took me years at university and on the job to train to be able to do without killing people in the process. They pay me a lot of money to do it because the hours are rotten, and most people wouldn't want, nor be able to do it. I don't like doing it, but it is how I get money to pay the rent.

 

A person I work with was hating on me at work the other night for doing the cruise. She spends $20 on dinner every night. I take a sandwich or leftovers from home. I pointed out to her that if she and her husband each took a sandwich they would save $10k a year, and could go on a cruise a well. Silence... Last night she bought a sandwich.

I had the same type of experience a week or so ago. Someone was being totally negative and mean about

the fact I like to cruise and said  she doesn't have the money to do it. She pays $300 a jar for fancy face cream and I pay aprox. $5 for Walmart brand. Everyone has their priorities. She also buys thousands (not exaggerating) of dollars on all types of

decorations for Halloween, Christmas, etc. and I use what  I started out with when my kids were young. As I said

everyone has their priorities and for some reason won't readjust but instead gets mad at those that have something that

with a little change in spending habits they could have too.

 

[GA Dave]

1 hour ago, Peachypooh said:

I had the same type of experience a week or so ago. Someone was being totally negative and mean about

the fact I like to cruise and said  she doesn't have the money to do it. She pays $300 a jar for fancy face cream and I pay aprox. $5 for Walmart brand. Everyone has their priorities. She also buys thousands (not exaggerating) of dollars on all types of

decorations for Halloween, Christmas, etc. and I use what  I started out with when my kids were young. As I said

everyone has their priorities and for some reason won't readjust but instead gets mad at those that have something that

with a little change in spending habits they could have too.

 

Sitting at my desk right now eating the sandwich my wife packed for me while all my employees are out eating lunch at Chili's, Olive Garden, etc.  I also drive a 2000 Durango that I bought for cash years ago.  That's how I can save 25% of my income for my retirement and several hundred dollars a week into my vacation fund.

[elwood_98034]

6 hours ago, thetaro said:

It's total BS if you believe that Haven prices subsidize/supplement the inside/balcony.  People talk like inside/balcony has a negative margin which is simply not true. If that is the case why would NCL even bother selling inside/balcony? 

Haven is a higher profit margin product with a much less demand because of the higher price. You are subsidizing nobody, you are just giving NCL more profit. NCL won't charge non-haven less because of you paying more in haven. NCL would still charge the maximum price they can charge based on supply/demand.

 

Fact is NCL needs to find a balance between selling the two products in order to maximize profit. 

Cruise ships make their money on alcohol and restaurant upsells. That is why they pulled the Joy out of China.

They want as many warm bodies on board as they can get. One DOS is costs about 40x the price of a double occupancy inside cabin, but doesn't consume anywhere near 40x the resources. That extra income is going somewhere back into the ships overall economy, and it has been discussed elsewhere (not on CC) that the Haven is used as a way to supplement those other cabins. It is exactly the same as the airline industry. Simple economics, not class warfare or elitism.

[elwood_98034]

Let me do some very rough maths for the ship that I am booked on.

A Haven guest is paying about $6,000 per person, and there are 300 of us. $1.8M

Just say a 'regular' cabin fare is $500 (and I know they wary wildly), $1.8M divided by $500 is the equivalent of 3,600 other cruisers.

So, just those 300 Haven guests are paying the same as 3,600 other passengers. 10x. But everyone eats the same food, and pays the same for drinks, and pays the same gratuities. The profit margin for everyone on the extras is about the same, it is only the cabin prices that are different. In the Haven the food isn't 10x more Gucci, we don't drink 10x more, or sit on 10 deck chairs each. There are no caviar or champagne dispensers. Just the same Three Cheese Ziti, and a bowl of M&M's in the Lounge. It all comes to the ship on the same big white trucks that deliver for the Cafe/MDR. No such thing as Gucci M&M's. Just regular.

A ship operates as an individual business unit. It is required to make a profit in its own right. The ship needs as many passengers on board as possible to sell the drinks and spa visits to make money. 300 people in the Haven aren't going to make them much money at all, but if you charge them an arm and a leg for their 'exclusive' little area up top, you can use all that extra money to drop the price of the regular cabins and get more people on board who will happily pay $15 for a photo, and $15 for ten minutes on a go cart. Or perhaps that Haven money pays the crew salaries, or the fuel bill, but whatever it pays for, it is going back into the ships economy, and paying a lot of bills somehow.

 

The DOS is worst off. They have maybe 5x the cabin space, but each guest is paying an eye watering 25x. They don't get 25 deck chairs each. They only get 1. So they are paying for 24 others that they don't get to use.

 

And just to troll, based on those dollar figures, the Haven is paying for 50% of the deck space, and we are getting ripped off because we are only getting 30%.

[MrMike45]

39 minutes ago, elwood_98034 said:

Let me do some very rough maths for the ship that I am booked on.

A Haven guest is paying about $6,000 per person, and there are 300 of us. $1.8M

Just say a 'regular' cabin fare is $500 (and I know they wary wildly), $1.8M divided by $500 is the equivalent of 3,600 other cruisers.

 

 

 

Please link any NCL cruise where all the Haven rooms are $6000 and above, and the average of all the other rooms is $500.  

I would say the averages are more like $5000 and $1500.  

 

5000 x 300 = 1.5mm

1500 x 3600 = 5.4mm

 

Edit: In addition...300 Haven pax would equate to 150 Haven rooms based on double occupancy.  I think that might be an over estimate as well 

Edited June 26, 2019 by MrMike45

[elwood_98034]

5 minutes ago, MrMike45 said:

 

 

Please link any NCL cruise where all the Haven rooms are $6000 and above, and the average of all the other rooms is $500.  

I would say the averages are more like $5000 and $1500.  

 

5000 x 300 = 1.5mm

1500 x 3600 = 5.4mm

 

Edit: In addition...300 Haven pax would equate to 150 Haven rooms based on double occupancy.  I think that might be an over estimate as well 

Here we go again Mike...

Our Haven cabin is over $12.5K FOR TWO OF US. $6,000x2 people.

And, to quote myself:  "Just say a 'regular' cabin fare is $500 (and I know they vary wildly)" Fare=PER PERSON.

6,000/500 is about 10x. I KNOW it is 12x, but I try to keep things simple, as 50% of the population are of below average intelligence. Refute that. Go ahead. I know you want to.

 

I don't care how much an inside phone booth costs. I wouldn't even know how to look up the price, and the entire concept of being stuck down there under the water by the engines damages my calm. I figure that by staying up top in the Haven if the ship does go down I will be one of the first ones taken off by the helicopters, because they will see me first. Not because I am 'special'. And as I learned in the Navy, it is way more fun to jump down into the water than be trapped screaming as your compartment fills with smoke and water. Sweet dreams.

 

BTW, there will be four of us, so we will be paying extra for all sorts of other things that two people in an inside phone booth won't be buying. So we are Cost+

 

Word of The Day:

Pedantic. adjective
overly concerned with minute details 

 

Ring a bell? Have fun.

[GA Dave]

Actual data from my next cruise:

(2) DOS - $9199/pp (Based on the same itinerary in Oct) = $36,796

(2) OS - $7549/pp = $30,196

(20) 2-BR - $7299/pp = $291,960

(18) CY PH - $5699/pp - $205,164

(12) Aft Fcng - $6099/pp = $146,376

(12) Fwd Fcng - $4999/pp = $119,976

(16) Spa - $4899/pp = $156,768

 

(164) passengers generating $987,236 in fares (does not include taxes, grats, etc.) = $6,019.73 per person