Britain's biggest cruise operator is becoming 'Butlins on Sea', Which? survey finds (today's Telegraph)

[Vampiress88]

I like butlins. 
 

also the drinks are cheaper on p&o than they are at bultins. 

[AndyMichelle]

4 minutes ago, Cahpek said:

 

I find the survey interesting but like anything, one has to take it with a pinch of salt.

The size of the survey in question may be relatively small, so how truly representative or reliable is that of the views of the majority of the cruise traveling market, you may ask.

From my two cruises with P&O, I have to say that the first cruise, on the Aurora (from Rio de Janeiro to Valparaiso), it was good and the standard of food on board was so much better than on the Ventura, a cruise which I took (about a year or so?) later. 

The food experience for me on the Ventura was so poor that out of 12 cruises, that was the ONLY CRUISE when I had LOST WEIGHT after taking the cruise! I tried to look on the bright side, and said to myself, that at least, I did not have to go on a diet after taking that cruise!!! But seriously, now, I would avoid Ventura like anything, even if the cruise price is low.

While on the Ventura, I met the Maitre D' who whom I met on the previous cruise with me on the Aurora. I asked her why the quality of catering  has became so poor? She mumbled something about cost cutting and a lot of food was pre cooked in factories on land and brought on board. Whether how much of that was true or not, I do not know.

 

There you are, I have said my ten cents worth.

The food is a bit hit and miss on all of P&O ships, we found Ventura quite good, but, in general, more hit than miss. 

On 3 cruises on Aurora in the same year, the first one the food was outstanding, the second one quite poor and the third very good again. 

It really was the quality of ingredients rather than the chefs, the steaks etc were very poor, even the chips were bad. 

Andy 

[Harry Peterson]

Despite all the inevitable attempts at rubbishing this review of cruise companies by Which?, it's still about the only independent review there is, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be reflecting the situation fairly for all the companies reviewed.

 

Which? is a well respected consumer magazine, it knows what it's doing with statistics and reports by members, and there's no reason why members would report on P&O any differently from the way they'd report on any other company.

 

When you see comments that:

 

'several customers complained that standards have slipped, that it has become a ‘downmarket company, priced accordingly’ and akin to ‘Butlin’s on sea’

 

or that

 

'one passenger told us about ‘rowdy scenes’ of ‘pushing, shouting, and not letting people out of a lift before trying to get in and passengers generally not behaving in a civilised manner’

 

you do realise that those of us in these forums who dare (and I use that word advisedly) to criticise P&O are just a small part of a growing number who feel that P&O have gone too far downmarket in their constant search for customers, and that some of those customers are actually damaging the 'brand'.  This is not good publicity for P&O, whether it's in the Mail or the Telegraph, or wherever else it's reported, but it's an inevitable consequence of what Carnival have done to a fine British company.

 

Yes, it's cheap (though Which? don't even agree that it's cheerful!) but words like 'luxury' still used by P&O to pull in customers don't help when they're plainly untrue.

 

It's a low-priced downmarket product now, as the report states, and if you accept that you won't be disappointed.  The problem is, though, that expectations are higher than that because of the history, the name, and the rather misleading advertising - that's when the problems start.
 

[Cahpek]

17 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Despite all the inevitable attempts at rubbishing this review of cruise companies by Which?, it's still about the only independent review there is, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be reflecting the situation fairly for all the companies reviewed.

 

Which? is a well respected consumer magazine, it knows what it's doing with statistics and reports by members, and there's no reason why members would report on P&O any differently from the way they'd report on any other company.

 

When you see comments that:

 

'several customers complained that standards have slipped, that it has become a ‘downmarket company, priced accordingly’ and akin to ‘Butlin’s on sea’

 

or that

 

'one passenger told us about ‘rowdy scenes’ of ‘pushing, shouting, and not letting people out of a lift before trying to get in and passengers generally not behaving in a civilised manner’

 

you do realise that those of us in these forums who dare (and I use that word advisedly) to criticise P&O are just a small part of a growing number who feel that P&O have gone too far downmarket in their constant search for customers, and that some of those customers are actually damaging the 'brand'.  This is not good publicity for P&O, whether it's in the Mail or the Telegraph, or wherever else it's reported, but it's an inevitable consequence of what Carnival have done to a fine British company.

 

Yes, it's cheap (though Which? don't even agree that it's cheerful!) but words like 'luxury' still used by P&O to pull in customers don't help when they're plainly untrue.

 

It's a low-priced downmarket product now, as the report states, and if you accept that you won't be disappointed.  The problem is, though, that expectations are higher than that because of the history, the name, and the rather misleading advertising - that's when the problems start.
 

 

Agree with a lot of things you say.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Cahpek

[terrierjohn]

5 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Despite all the inevitable attempts at rubbishing this review of cruise companies by Which?, it's still about the only independent review there is, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be reflecting the situation fairly for all the companies reviewed.

 

Which? is a well respected consumer magazine, it knows what it's doing with statistics and reports by members, and there's no reason why members would report on P&O any differently from the way they'd report on any other company.

 

When you see comments that:

 

'several customers complained that standards have slipped, that it has become a ‘downmarket company, priced accordingly’ and akin to ‘Butlin’s on sea’

 

or that

 

'one passenger told us about ‘rowdy scenes’ of ‘pushing, shouting, and not letting people out of a lift before trying to get in and passengers generally not behaving in a civilised manner’

 

you do realise that those of us in these forums who dare (and I use that word advisedly) to criticise P&O are just a small part of a growing number who feel that P&O have gone too far downmarket in their constant search for customers, and that some of those customers are actually damaging the 'brand'.  This is not good publicity for P&O, whether it's in the Mail or the Telegraph, or wherever else it's reported, but it's an inevitable consequence of what Carnival have done to a fine British company.

 

Yes, it's cheap (though Which? don't even agree that it's cheerful!) but words like 'luxury' still used by P&O to pull in customers don't help when they're plainly untrue.

 

It's a low-priced downmarket product now, as the report states, and if you accept that you won't be disappointed.  The problem is, though, that expectations are higher than that because of the history, the name, and the rather misleading advertising - that's when the problems start.
 

I think Which itself would admit that its contributors are not wholly representative of society at large Harry, a more reasonable assessment would come from cruise reviews on this forum, at least then you (should) be guaranteed that they come from genuine cruisers. From the bits you highlight above, they could have come from reading your posts on here.

But to argue that advertising cruises as luxury holidays is thoroughly misleading is a bit inept, surely you don't expect any Holiday company to be brutally honest about their accommodation, not if they want to attract new customers, caveat emptor and all that.

[AndyMichelle]

12 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Despite all the inevitable attempts at rubbishing this review of cruise companies by Which?, it's still about the only independent review there is, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be reflecting the situation fairly for all the companies reviewed.

 

Which? is a well respected consumer magazine, it knows what it's doing with statistics and reports by members, and there's no reason why members would report on P&O any differently from the way they'd report on any other company.

 

When you see comments that:

 

'several customers complained that standards have slipped, that it has become a ‘downmarket company, priced accordingly’ and akin to ‘Butlin’s on sea’

 

or that

 

'one passenger told us about ‘rowdy scenes’ of ‘pushing, shouting, and not letting people out of a lift before trying to get in and passengers generally not behaving in a civilised manner’

 

you do realise that those of us in these forums who dare (and I use that word advisedly) to criticise P&O are just a small part of a growing number who feel that P&O have gone too far downmarket in their constant search for customers, and that some of those customers are actually damaging the 'brand'.  This is not good publicity for P&O, whether it's in the Mail or the Telegraph, or wherever else it's reported, but it's an inevitable consequence of what Carnival have done to a fine British company.

 

Yes, it's cheap (though Which? don't even agree that it's cheerful!) but words like 'luxury' still used by P&O to pull in customers don't help when they're plainly untrue.

 

It's a low-priced downmarket product now, as the report states, and if you accept that you won't be disappointed.  The problem is, though, that expectations are higher than that because of the history, the name, and the rather misleading advertising - that's when the problems start.
 

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I personally have not seen any rowdy scenes or pushing and shouting in the lift... 

Yes, things have changed, but it is still good value for money with mostly civilised people. 

Andy 

 

[Omega1]

1 hour ago, Harry Peterson said:

Despite all the inevitable attempts at rubbishing this review of cruise companies by Which?, it's still about the only independent review there is, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be reflecting the situation fairly for all the companies reviewed.

 

Which? is a well respected consumer magazine, it knows what it's doing with statistics and reports by members, and there's no reason why members would report on P&O any differently from the way they'd report on any other company.

 

I am a fan of Which?, and a subscriber, but this piece of work is, in my opinion, quite poor. Statistically, the sample is small but, more importantly, the demographic of Which? members does not reflect the broad spectrum of passengers on the various cruise lines, nor does it reflect the international character of cruise ship passengers.

This does not invalidate the experiences of individual respondents but for Which? to attempt to rank cruise lines on such flimsy evidence detracts from the usual high quality product testing and general championing of consumer affairs.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Omega1

[crompton21]

"one passenger told us about"

 

I make it about 16,000 passengers per week that P&O can carry, that's probably more than Butlins......  

[ann141]

I think one problem is that people notice and remember negative points.I have once seen drunken behaviour on a P and O ship It was a Caribbean translantic on Britannia and a couple who had boarded in Barbados were apparently drunk and rude to crew and some passengers .They were put off the ship at the Azores and the Captain said he apologised to anyone who had been affected and that he would make sure they would not be allowed on a P and O ship again! Very occasionally I have seen the odd person push in the lift but I have seen that on other lines too.With 2 or 3,000 people on a ship there are bound to be all sorts of people and the majority are lovely and one reason we enjoy cruising so much.I think the food has gone downhill slightly over the last few years but for me personally that is not one of the main reasons I choose to cruise and as long as there is something reasonable to choose from the menu it will not put me off P and o.

I agree that the P and O adverts possibly give a slightly glamorous impression but most holiday adverts do too.I feel very lucky to be able to cruise several times a year and unless the odd incidents(that you occasionally get in any holiday resort)become more prevalent we shall continue to cruise with P and o though we cruise with other lines too.

 

[Harry Peterson]

9 minutes ago, Omega1 said:

I am a fan of Which?, and a subscriber, but this piece of work is, in my opinion, quite poor. Statistically, the sample is small but, more importantly, the demographic of Which? members does not reflect the broad spectrum of passengers on the various cruise lines, nor does it reflect the international character of cruise ship passengers.

This does not invalidate the experiences of individual respondents but for Which? to attempt to rank cruise lines on such flimsy evidence detracts from the usual high quality product testing and general championing of consumer affairs.

I disagree. Which? relies heavily on feedback, not just from members but other members of the public, for its reports - and this is no different. Members and non-members will have contributed via a panel, and there’s no reason to suppose that P&O will have been treated any differently from any other company.

 

The fact that people who fed back didn’t think much of P&O is no reason to discredit the report. It’s infinitely more balanced than anything else available. And if Which? readers have higher standards than the readers of certain other publications, does that matter?

 

P&O is to some extent selling dreams, and if people are finding the reality doesn’t match the hype, isn’t it reasonable that the public should be warned.  This is of course a very pro-P&O gathering. Which? is genuinely independent.

[Vampiress88]

7 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I disagree. Which? relies heavily on feedback, not just from members but other members of the public, for its reports - and this is no different. Members and non-members will have contributed via a panel, and there’s no reason to suppose that P&O will have been treated any differently from any other company.

 

The fact that people who fed back didn’t think much of P&O is no reason to discredit the report. It’s infinitely more balanced than anything else available. And if Which? readers have higher standards than the readers of certain other publications, does that matter?

 

P&O is to some extent selling dreams, and if people are finding the reality doesn’t match the hype, isn’t it reasonable that the public should be warned.  This is of course a very pro-P&O gathering. Which? is genuinely independent.

Harry why do you personally cruise with P&o? I know you had some issues last year but you’ve still stayed on a board that discusses this cruise line that you don’t seem to like particularly. 

[AndyMichelle]

5 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I disagree. Which? relies heavily on feedback, not just from members but other members of the public, for its reports - and this is no different. Members and non-members will have contributed via a panel, and there’s no reason to suppose that P&O will have been treated any differently from any other company.

 

The fact that people who fed back didn’t think much of P&O is no reason to discredit the report. It’s infinitely more balanced than anything else available. And if Which? readers have higher standards than the readers of certain other publications, does that matter?

 

P&O is to some extent selling dreams, and if people are finding the reality doesn’t match the hype, isn’t it reasonable that the public should be warned.  This is of course a very pro-P&O gathering. Which? is genuinely independent.

You are quick to point the finger at posters like myself who genuinely just speak as we find and have had good experiences. 

The people in the Which? survey are entitled to their opinions and I don't doubt they are true, but because that does not match our findings, you seem to try to discredit us for giving our honest opinions. 

I never claim P&O are perfect, far from it, but we are all still booking... Perhaps we all like Butlins.. 

Andy 

[Omega1]

29 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I disagree. Which? relies heavily on feedback, not just from members but other members of the public, for its reports - and this is no different. Members and non-members will have contributed via a panel, and there’s no reason to suppose that P&O will have been treated any differently from any other company.

 

The fact that people who fed back didn’t think much of P&O is no reason to discredit the report. It’s infinitely more balanced than anything else available. And if Which? readers have higher standards than the readers of certain other publications, does that matter?

 

P&O is to some extent selling dreams, and if people are finding the reality doesn’t match the hype, isn’t it reasonable that the public should be warned.  This is of course a very pro-P&O gathering. Which? is genuinely independent.

I too disagree. My reading of the information was that the contributions were from Which? members.

You will also note that in my posts on this topic, I have not made reference to P&O - it matters not to me how any particular cruise line fares in the report, it is the methodology that I have issue with. 

As an example, Holland America (800000+ passengers per annum) is ranked next to bottom based on 84 contributions - given that 80%+ of HAL passengers are from USA/Canada, how can the judgements the report makes be accurate when the respondents do not reflect the broad character of its clientele?

As I said, in my opinion, this report falls well below the usual high standards of Which? - it simply does not stand up to statistical scrutiny.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Omega1

[grapau27]

7 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

You are quick to point the finger at posters like myself who genuinely just speak as we find and have had good experiences. 

The people in the Which? survey are entitled to their opinions and I don't doubt they are true, but because that does not match our findings, you seem to try to discredit us for giving our honest opinions. 

I never claim P&O are perfect, far from it, but we are all still booking... Perhaps we all like Butlins.. 

Andy 

I'm with you Andy.

The only criticism I have with P&O is the lunchtime buffet but we often go into the dining room so it's not a problem.

Our next cruise is P&O and our last was Princess even though our high loyalty on RC gives us much better benefits.

We like P&O and no Which survey will change our minds.

 

[wowzz]

28 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I disagree. Which? relies heavily on feedback, not just from members but other members of the public, for its reports - and this is no different. Members and non-members will have contributed via a panel, and there’s no reason to suppose that P&O will have been treated any differently from any other company.

 

The fact that people who fed back didn’t think much of P&O is no reason to discredit the report. It’s infinitely more balanced than anything else available. And if Which? readers have higher standards than the readers of certain other publications, does that matter?

 

P&O is to some extent selling dreams, and if people are finding the reality doesn’t match the hype, isn’t it reasonable that the public should be warned.  This is of course a very pro-P&O gathering. Which? is genuinely independent.

How does a sample of 60 or so people constitute a scientific piece of research. There is no "panel" in this instance, just members of Which being asked for feedback.

Perhaps if the satisfaction figures had been weighted to take into account actual cruise costs,  the findings might have been worth reading. 

All the survey tells us is that Viking, an expensive cruise line, is very good, and that P&O, a not very expensive cruise line, is not as good . Who'd have thought it!

Edited January 27, 2020 by wowzz

[Harry Peterson]

10 minutes ago, wowzz said:

How does a sample of 68 people constitute a scientific piece of research. There is no "panel" in this instance, just members of Which being asked for feedback.

Perhaps if the satisfaction figures had been weighted to take into account actual cruise costs,  the findings might have been worth reading. 

All the survey tells us is that Viking, an expensive cruise line, is very good, and that P&O, a not very expensive cruise line, is not as good . Who'd have thought it!

Not sure where you're getting that figure of 68 from, or the suggestion that it's only members that contribute towards reports.  There's a lot of misinformation out there about Which? - people often don't like the findings because they're independent and unbiased.

 

Each month we survey thousands of members from Which?, Which? Connect (our online member community) and the general public on topics that range from how people feel about their local supermarkets, broadband providers and energy suppliers, to how reliable the products they buy are. We then use the information to inform our magazine articles, our online content and our lobbying and campaigning work.

[Cahpek]

25 minutes ago, wowzz said:

How does a sample of 60 or so people constitute a scientific piece of research. There is no "panel" in this instance, just members of Which being asked for feedback.

Perhaps if the satisfaction figures had been weighted to take into account actual cruise costs,  the findings might have been worth reading. 

All the survey tells us is that Viking, an expensive cruise line, is very good, and that P&O, a not very expensive cruise line, is not as good . Who'd have thought it!

 

Whether the survey is fair or not, if you look at the bright side (there's always a "silver lining" for everything, well, almost!), when/if P&O management reads who has been written about their cruise line in the newspapers, hopefully that would make them sit up and listen, and do something about it.

That may even  make them begin to look at the weak parts of the cruise line,  address them , and change for the better. No one is above improvement.

 

For example, maybe , just maybe, they may even  start improving the standard of food and cooking on board (hooray!). At the moment, each time I look at a P&O brochure, and wanted to cruise with them again, the thought of the last Ventura cruise where food for me was the WORST of any cruise I have been on, that really put me off. Perhaps, that's not fair. Perhaps I should give P&O another chance. If P&O senior management seriously look into improving their catering again, I will be one of the first to come back to their cruise line, pronto. (The thing is, P&O has a lot of good things, including of course, the friendly staff).

 

Meanwhile, it is with Viking, Holland America, Oceania, Princess, and others for me . That does no stop me from visiting the P&O discussion board on Cruisecritic, and I think everyone has the right to do that, not just present P&O cruisers and their supporters. I do not expect P&O to be of the same "luxury" standard as some  of some of the other more expensive lines, but lower fares is no excuse to have poor cooking . Not such expensive and exotic ingredients perhaps, but even simple cooking, if well prepared, can be delicious!!! 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Cahpek

[Les_ldh]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’d rather judge from personal experience and based on that experience I think P&O offer excellent value for money, so I’ll keep coming back until my experiences tell me different.

Les.

[Omega1]

23 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Not sure where you're getting that figure of 68 from, or the suggestion that it's only members that contribute towards reports.  There's a lot of misinformation out there about Which? - people often don't like the findings because they're independent and unbiased.

 

Each month we survey thousands of members from Which?, Which? Connect (our online member community) and the general public on topics that range from how people feel about their local supermarkets, broadband providers and energy suppliers, to how reliable the products they buy are. We then use the information to inform our magazine articles, our online content and our lobbying and campaigning work.

The Which? cruise report is based on the responses of its members - no one else!

From the Which report:

‘.......according to the thousands of members who completed Which? Travel’s annual ocean cruise survey.....’
 

The ‘thousands of members’ was actually 2253 respondents.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Omega1

[wowzz]

8 minutes ago, Cahpek said:

 

Meanwhile, it is with Viking, Holland America, Oceania, Princess, and others for me

From memory, didn't Holland America come second from bottom? Surprised you're slumming it with them!

[Harry Peterson]

49 minutes ago, Vampiress88 said:

Harry why do you personally cruise with P&o? I know you had some issues last year but you’ve still stayed on a board that discusses this cruise line that you don’t seem to like particularly. 

Maybe because I'd like to see it improve, rather than deteriorate?  Maybe because it's still a company I'd consider if the 'right' cruise came along?  And maybe because as a Carnival shareholder I want to see it doing well.

 

Companies learn from customer feedback, and reports like this one from Which?.  Don't assume that criticism is bad - and my criticism is based on hard evidence.

[Cahpek]

6 minutes ago, wowzz said:

From memory, didn't Holland America come second from bottom? Surprised you're slumming it with them!

 

I'd happily "slum" with HAL than on the Ventura, thank you very much. I did eat well on their ship. (Of course, I "slum" with other cruises as well, including Viking and Oceania.) Their buffet was on another level compared to the buffet on the Ventura. Having said that, perhaps other P&O ships may have better cooking, and maybe , the level of cooking on the Ventura depends on who the head chef was on that cruise. 

 

Like some folks here, I make my decisions mainly due to my past experience with those lines.  I am not so much influenced by surveys. Surveys make interesting reading, but as I said before, I take them with a pinch of salt.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Cahpek

[Harry Peterson]

15 minutes ago, Omega1 said:

The Which? cruise report is based on the responses of its members - no one else!

From the Which report:

‘.......according to the thousands of members who completed Which? Travel’s annual ocean cruise survey.....’
 

Thousands of members - which does not mean necessarily that there were no non-members in addition, particularly in view of this:

 

Each month we survey thousands of members from Which?, Which? Connect (our online member community) and the general public on topics that range from how people feel about their local supermarkets, broadband providers and energy suppliers, to how reliable the products they buy are. We then use the information to inform our magazine articles, our online content and our lobbying and campaigning work.

 

Either way, though, thousands of people formed the basis of the survey - not the smallish numbers suggested above.  Looks pretty representative to me, though anything which criticised P&O never goes down well here.  I can understand that, but surely some objectivity should be accepted?

 

[Bazrat]

Hi folks just passing through after reading some of the comments from Docco in his defence of which he fails to understand they built there reputation on testing products in a lab,the survey they did is not scientific but based on people’s experiences of a particular product,some like HP might have a bad experience so that colours there reply to the survey.

the Butlins comment as far as I know was from one person.

[Omega1]

2 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Thousands of members - which does not mean necessarily that there were no non-members in addition, particularly in view of this:

 

Each month we survey thousands of members from Which?, Which? Connect (our online member community) and the general public on topics that range from how people feel about their local supermarkets, broadband providers and energy suppliers, to how reliable the products they buy are. We then use the information to inform our magazine articles, our online content and our lobbying and campaigning work.

 

Either way, though, thousands of people formed the basis of the survey - not the smallish numbers suggested above.  Looks pretty representative to me, though anything which criticised P&O never goes down well here.  I can understand that, but surely some objectivity should be accepted?

 

The survey had 2253 respondents- all members of Which?

My issue is that the report is not objective- it is highly subjective and statistically invalid. Make whatever conclusions you wish from the report - but it’s important to understand its limitations.