APPROPRIATE ACTIONS OR EXTREME MEASURES?

[diamondintn]

On 9/15/2020 at 1:49 PM, Ken the cruiser said:

Sounds great to us, with one caveat. If you choose not to sign the form at either embarkation or anytime prior to that point after final payment, you will receive a full refund in FCC. 

I think you would know the rules and decide to comply with them BEFORE you pay final payment. I would not pay all of that money without first being amenable to them. Also, if you don't agree with the rules, why would you want FCC? I mean, either you're in or you're out. Am I right?

[npcl]

6 hours ago, mayleeman said:

 

Then those of us who like safer travel, and who do not trust travel companies who break their promises to provide safety measures, will do other things.

 

I am not saying they have to please me above all others. If other cruisers go and enjoy the experience despite what I see as an untenably dangerous environment, so be it. I just won't spend my money there. My car is wonderful, and it is time to visit the Snake River among hundreds of other (inland) destinations.

South rim of Grand Canyon was wonderful last week. rooms available at el tovar for same day walk in. other lodges half full. not crowded along rim. good mask compliance indoors, even good percentage of those hiking bright angel trail wore masks.

[ABoatNerd]

14 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

There is no doubt that masks will be required on future cruises for awhile. Whether it'll be enforced to alevel that some are satisfied is another issue. So to those that continue to project the mantra No Mask = No Cruise you'll get your wish. The question is will you actually go knowing the struggle of enforcement. But there are more issues than just masks....

 

1. Contact tracing -  Are you prepared to have your cruise canceled due to contact tracing after arriving to the port? Once on the ship, are you prepared to be quarantined because of contact tracing? 

 

2. Quarantine cabins - Are you prepared to be moved out of your balcony or suite and be held in another cabin w/ bunk beds and no space due to contact tracing? 

 

3. Ship's Excursions - are you prepared to pay double the price non-ship excursion costs?

 

4. Social Distancing - due to space needed, the number of cabins occupied will be reduced and as a result the cost of the cabins to be occupied will increase dramatically. Are you prepared to pay an increased price?

 

No Mask = No Cruise. OK...then what?  

 

 

 

Again Goodtime Cruizin - excellent post.

 

Your post goes to the heart of my avoidance of purchasing a cruise.  There would be a high level of uncertainty before arriving to the port ie flying and all that, trying to "qualify" to get on the ship, having to "qualify" during the trip and the expected overall reduction in the former cruise product - everything from more rules aboard, to reduced venues, more lineups for activities, reduced food quality and service given cruise line debt levels and their past trend of downgrading, no ability to self explore ports.

 

I am not interested in paying hard earned $ to purchase that scenario. 

 

As TeeRick posted earlier, cruises are supposed to be fun experiences.  

 

Nothing going forward sounds fun.  Will simply be undertaking land vacations for the foreseeable future.

 

Cruising has a unique liability - the situation of being held in detention at sea and denied access to the land. Enough said.

 

[mayleeman]

7 hours ago, npcl said:

Grand Canyon

 

Favorite place in the world! As peaceful as cruising--for both, once you get away from loud crowds...

Edited September 23, 2020 by mayleeman

[K.T.B.]

15 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

There is no doubt that masks will be required on future cruises for awhile. Whether it'll be enforced to alevel that some are satisfied is another issue. So to those that continue to project the mantra No Mask = No Cruise you'll get your wish. The question is will you actually go knowing the struggle of enforcement. But there are more issues than just masks....

 

1. Contact tracing -  Are you prepared to have your cruise canceled due to contact tracing after arriving to the port? Once on the ship, are you prepared to be quarantined because of contact tracing? 

 

2. Quarantine cabins - Are you prepared to be moved out of your balcony or suite and be held in another cabin w/ bunk beds and no space due to contact tracing? 

 

3. Ship's Excursions - are you prepared to pay double the price non-ship excursion costs?

 

4. Social Distancing - due to space needed, the number of cabins occupied will be reduced and as a result the cost of the cabins to be occupied will increase dramatically. Are you prepared to pay an increased price?

 

No Mask = No Cruise. OK...then what?  

 

 

 

In answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes. BUT I'd have myself checked out prior to leaving for my cruise to make sure.  As everyone should do nowadays, for your safety and others'.  To not do so would be inconsiderate and possibly dangerous.  (Odds are, though, you'd be fine.)

 

2.  Nope.  Nor could they without your permission.  Because in doing so, that could put you at greater risk.  IF they forced it, I'd want all sorts of assurances that me and my wife would be safe wherever they moved us and that we'd be WELL compensated for the inconvenience.

 

3. They're going to charge double.  Please provide proof (legitimate proof, not hearsay) that this has happened.  Besides, I already only book excursions through the ship when I do take them.

 

4.  As always, I'd book a cruise I could handle financially.  If they increase the prices, so be it.  They're like any other business and have the right to charge what they feel they can get from the consumer.  

 

Finally, if people don't want to wear a mask, then don't cruise.  Don't be selfish.  This isn't about you, it's to make sure everyone is protected.  (Even IF it may not be needed eventually, why take the chance?)

[Ride-The-Waves]

Lots of whining...essentially comparing pre-COVID to the expected new guidelines.  Can't do that.  This is as new an experience as the first "cruises" were morphed from ocean liners, and the experiences just be taken from that perspective.

 

Cabin pp prices will be high, maybe double or more.  Dining will be different and likely not as satisfying.  Embarkation and even disembarkation will be more challenging and trying.  "Getting there" will be significantly more challenging, and costly.  Just not the same experience.

 

Doable?  Of course.  Fun?  Maybe not so much.  

 

[phoenix_dream]

12 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Lots of whining...essentially comparing pre-COVID to the expected new guidelines.  Can't do that.  This is as new an experience as the first "cruises" were morphed from ocean liners, and the experiences just be taken from that perspective.

 

Cabin pp prices will be high, maybe double or more.  Dining will be different and likely not as satisfying.  Embarkation and even disembarkation will be more challenging and trying.  "Getting there" will be significantly more challenging, and costly.  Just not the same experience.

 

Doable?  Of course.  Fun?  Maybe not so much.  

 

A lot of speculation not backed up by facts.  How do you know cabin prices will be higher, much less double or more?  They may actually be lower initially to entice people.  How do you know dining will not be as satisfying?  There will be fewer people in the dining room which might actually make the experience more satisfying rather than less!  Getting on and off more "challenging"?  How do you know that?  It may be more staggered, but perhaps depending how they do it, it may very well be smoother with fewer lines and waiting around.  Sounds good to me.  And why is getting there "significantly more challenging"?  Flying may be more risky than driving, if that is what you mean by challenging.  Other than that I'm not sure what is more challenging, much less significantly more challenging.  I guess I'm a glass half full kind of person.  No one knows for sure yet, but some of the points you mention aren't givens at this point in time.  Will cruising be different and not as much fun overall?  Initially I would guess that would be true.  But maybe better than you are expecting.

[phoenix_dream]

22 hours ago, Rob-Bob said:

Wow.  Lots of opinions.  Most about other people protecting you from them (mask wearing).  Why not look out for yourself.  Wash your hands often.  If you are touching things wash you hands immediately after.  Do not touch your face, mouth, eyes, etc. unless your hands are sanitized.

 

If we all keep our hands clean that will be a huge help in stopping the spread and will help with a number of other illness's as well.  People that don't wash their hands but wear a mask are not your allies.

 

I am not going to live in fear.  I am going to keep my hands clean and do my best at social distancing. 

 

Stay safe, go to work, go to play, enjoy your family and live your lives.  Most importantly wash your hands. 

I certainly believe in washing your hands.  But as all of the scientists out there now will tell you, most people do not catch the virus from touching something and then touching their face/eyes, etc..  Yes, that is one possible way to catch the virus but by far not the primary way of catching it.  The primary way is through breathing in the particles in the air containing the virus.  So yes, washing your hands is important, and will protect against more viruses than just Covid-19, but it is most definitely not the most important thing.  I only wish it was.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

45 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

In answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes. BUT I'd have myself checked out prior to leaving for my cruise to make sure.  As everyone should do nowadays, for your safety and others'.  To not do so would be inconsiderate and possibly dangerous.  (Odds are, though, you'd be fine.)

 

2.  Nope.  Nor could they without your permission.  Because in doing so, that could put you at greater risk.  IF they forced it, I'd want all sorts of assurances that me and my wife would be safe wherever they moved us and that we'd be WELL compensated for the inconvenience.

 

3. They're going to charge double.  Please provide proof (legitimate proof, not hearsay) that this has happened.  Besides, I already only book excursions through the ship when I do take them.

 

4.  As always, I'd book a cruise I could handle financially.  If they increase the prices, so be it.  They're like any other business and have the right to charge what they feel they can get from the consumer.  

 

Finally, if people don't want to wear a mask, then don't cruise.  Don't be selfish.  This isn't about you, it's to make sure everyone is protected.  (Even IF it may not be needed eventually, why take the chance?)

 

You really should read the details of the panel's report, especially for #1 & #2. 

 

And look, when I'm on vacation and schilling out $10,000 to do so... of course it's about me! 😉  No more different than you forking out money and then selfifishly demanding that I wear a mask so you feel better. If you're think it's that bad & you're that concerned, then you shouldn't cruise.   

 

Bottomline is I recognize that I will be required to wear a face covering to get on a ship. But there is much much more areas of concern other than a facemask that makes cruising unattractive right now. I listed a few things to bring them to the forefront for discussion. Your reponse to #2 is laughable. You're worried about a mask and telling others they MUST wear one for the protection of others but then tell us all that YOU will not re-locate to isolation to protect others. Don't be selfish. 

[phoenix_dream]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:44 PM, RICCruisers said:

I’m ready to get flamed, but here is my opinion about what I have read about the CLIA/CDC Mask policy. They state that everyone is required to wear masks indoors where social distancing is not possible. UNLESS they have some type of medical condition that either creates a breathing issue or they are not able to wear a mask.  

 

I ask - Why should those people be allowed on a ship in the first place. A condition of sailing should be that everyone allowed to cruise must have the ability to wear a mask. If you have a condition that inhibits you from wearing a mask you shouldn’t be on a ship. 

I agree with you 100%.  No, it is not "fair" in some respects, and I certainly feel for those folks (although scientific studies have proved again and again that even for people with breathing difficulties mask wearing is almost always possible).  At the same time, it is not fair to the other thousands of people onboard to be potentially exposed to the virus just because someone else has a medical condition.  I'll go you one further in the potential flaming category.  Very young children and infants cannot wear masks.  Initially, they should not be allowed to be onboard either.  I'm sure that will get some parents up in arms, but it is all about safety, not about individuals desire to vacation.  Life is not fair and someone else's inability to wear a mask should not be allowed to endanger my life.  I am certainly not without sympathy for people in that situation, but that is the situation the virus has put us all in.

[Pinboy]

22 hours ago, davekathy said:

Anyway moving along. 🙄

Page 11--- let's get to pg 65 

About  " moving along " ---- Excellent advice.

Any room for us in your car ???  

 

 

 

[Rob-Bob]

34 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

I certainly believe in washing your hands.  But as all of the scientists out there now will tell you, most people do not catch the virus from touching something and then touching their face/eyes, etc..  Yes, that is one possible way to catch the virus but by far not the primary way of catching it.  The primary way is through breathing in the particles in the air containing the virus.  So yes, washing your hands is important, and will protect against more viruses than just Covid-19, but it is most definitely not the most important thing.  I only wish it was.

I guess if what you are saying is accurate you can prevent yourself from getting it by wearing a mask.  It really doesn't seem necessary for others to wear a mask.  If you always have your mask on and social distance you can not breath in someone else's  particles in the air.  

 

So maybe it is a matter of choice.  Am I missing something?  If you have a mask on you can not breath in the bad stuff.  So if someone else is not wearing a mask how is that putting your life in danger?  Seems like they may be risking their own health but not yours.

[Life Buoy]

6 minutes ago, Rob-Bob said:

I guess if what you are saying is accurate you can prevent yourself from getting it by wearing a mask.  It really doesn't seem necessary for others to wear a mask.  If you always have your mask on and social distance you can not breath in someone else's  particles in the air.  

 

So maybe it is a matter of choice.  Am I missing something?  If you have a mask on you can not breath in the bad stuff.  So if someone else is not wearing a mask how is that putting your life in danger?  Seems like they may be risking their own health but not yours.

Phoenix Dream is correct. Wearing a mask tends to protect others more than you. If you sneeze without a mask the particulates can travel 24 feet. Wearing a mask limits the spread. A cloth mask has been proven more effective than a paper one. There have been many tests on masks and results are very consistent.

[Fouremco]

14 minutes ago, Rob-Bob said:

I guess if what you are saying is accurate you can prevent yourself from getting it by wearing a mask.  It really doesn't seem necessary for others to wear a mask.  If you always have your mask on and social distance you can not breath in someone else's  particles in the air.  

 

So maybe it is a matter of choice.  Am I missing something?  If you have a mask on you can not breath in the bad stuff.  So if someone else is not wearing a mask how is that putting your life in danger?  Seems like they may be risking their own health but not yours.

You have it backwards. A cloth mask is intended to trap droplets that are released by you when you talk, cough or sneeze. By asking everyone to wear masks, we reduce the spread of the virus by people who have COVID-19 but are asymptomatic and don't realize it.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

But would not the testing prior to getting on the ship identify the asymptomatic? The goal is to not allow the carriers of the virus on the ship. Once the carriers are identified and prevented from getting on the ship, the masks should no longer needed. Correct? 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Goodtime Cruizin

[markeb]

Just now, Goodtime Cruizin said:

But would not the testing prior to getting the ship identify the asymptomatic? The goal is to not allow the carriers of the virus on the ship. Once the carriers are identified and prevented from getting on the ship, the masks should no longer needed. Correct? 

Testing still misses a percentage of asymptomatic.  Testing to eliminate actively shedding above threshold of detection plus masking to reduce asymptomatic spread not detected in testing. 

[Fouremco]

Just now, Goodtime Cruizin said:

But would not the testing prior to getting the ship identify the asymptomatic? The goal is to not allow the carriers of the virus on the ship. Once the carriers are identified and prevented from getting on the ship, the masks should no longer needed. Correct? 

Incorrect. None of the tests currently available are 100% accurate.

[Life Buoy]

9 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

But would not the testing prior to getting the ship identify the asymptomatic? The goal is to not allow the carriers of the virus on the ship. Once the carriers are identified and prevented from getting on the ship, the masks should no longer needed. Correct? 

Testing only indicates if you are positive or negative at the time of the test. Does not indicate what might happen in the future or before the end of the incubation process. 

Your comments on this tread indicate to me that to need to read reliable information to protect yourself.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Life Buoy

[Rob-Bob]

1 minute ago, Life Buoy said:

Phoenix Dream is correct. Wearing a mask tends to protect others more than you. If you sneeze without a mask the particulates can travel 24 feet. Wearing a mask limits the spread. A cloth mask has been proven more effective than a paper one. There have been many tests on masks and results are very consistent.

I am not trying to be a wise guy but let me ask:  If you are wearing a mask and you need to sneeze you recommend just keeping the mask on and sneezing into it?  That sounds kind of gross.  Do you then change your mask right away thus keeping a supply of mask on you at all times?  Or if you feel a sneeze coming on do you remove your mask and sneeze into your arm or tissue.  If you do the second thing you can do that while not wearing a mask thus limiting the amount of feet of traveling particles (which we have been instructed to do since we were children).

 

If someone is not wearing a mask and sneezes and the particles travel the 24 feet if you are wearing your mask aren't you still protected?  It does not seem like you should be breathing it in if you are masked even if it has traveled 24 feet.

 

I get that masking up will help.  I also get that common sense may help even more.  If I am sitting alone on the deck in a corner of the ship a mask may not be necessary especially if I am not going to sneeze or cough (feeling perfectly healthy).  Requiring me to wear one at that time might be unnecessary.  On the other hand if I am in a crowd I should do what I can to protect me and others.  If I have been sneezing and coughing I should not go to a crowded theater, casino or dinning facility.

 

Stay safe and hopefully we all be back cruising soon.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

Wait. So testing is not accurate? 

[Life Buoy]

You don't want to release to particulates so keep the mask on. I would change the mask as soon as practical. I wash my cloth masks after use. Some people treat this as a hoax or as a political statement, but I know some who have contacted Covid-19 and it isn't very pleasant. There have been lots of complications reported, especially heart problems. 

Your final sentence is a shared wish!

[Fouremco]

4 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

Wait. So testing is not accurate? 

Correct. None of the current tests are 100% accurate.

 

This article published 2 days ago by the Harvard Medical School provides a good overview:

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/which-test-is-best-for-covid-19-2020081020734

[Life Buoy]

9 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

Wait. So testing is not accurate? 

Think you're are just being a Devil's Advocate. That's fine since it brings solid information to the surface.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

5 minutes ago, Life Buoy said:

Think you're are just being a Devil's Advocate. That's fine since it brings solid information to the surface.

 

😉 You... are... correct. I'm really a nice person, a good guy that respects all those I came into contact with despite what I post here. Some topics need to be discussed that aren't because some just can't think beyond a mask. 

[D C]

18 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Correct. None of the current tests are 100% accurate.

 

This article published 2 days ago by the Harvard Medical School provides a good overview:

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/which-test-is-best-for-covid-19-2020081020734

Unfortunately, the number of false positives is greatly downplayed despite some very public instances recently.  In the general public, a positive is assumed a positive.  If the test was actually a false positive, it simply makes the patient an "asymptomatic" positive.  There is no consideration that they were falsely positive.