Potential delay in Carnival Corp's sailing from US Ports

[chengkp75]

While I agree that gray water discharges, in certain areas, are not a big deal, in fact ships are allowed to discharge untreated gray water at sea (in a controlled fashion, while underway), in certain areas it can be devastating to the marine environment, and those areas are delineated as "no discharge areas", and this is what the violation did.  Gray water is not just "bathroom shower, tub and sink water only", it also includes galley and laundry water.  Laundry water can contain phosphates which can cause algae blooms and depletion of oxygen in the water (especially when concentrated in a small area), and galley water can have food waste leading to overnutrients in the water.

 

I am an "inside" critic, I live and work in the maritime industry, and I deal with these environmental regulations every day of my working life (40+ years), and I not only applaud the advances we have made in environmental protection over that span, but I have nothing but contempt for corporations like Carnival who have repeatedly (I believe the original violation against Princess cruises was 19 years ago) ignored and knowingly violated those regulations.

 

And, as for HAL's record, I am trying to download the Court Appointed Monitor's report from 2018, but not sure I can get to the relevant part before CC goes down for maintenance today, but I remember that HAL had several ships noted for various violations, so no, Father, HAL is not perfect, and HAL has just as much to answer for as the rest of Carnival's brands.

[chengkp75]

Skimmed the document, and in just the first year of probation, 11 of HAL's 14 vessels are listed as having some environmental incident.

[Ken the cruiser]

21 hours ago, KirkNC said:

One is about HAL as well.  I believe it was the Zaandam that discharged grey water illegally in Alaska.

I always wondered what that white bubbly stuff was that we saw from our balcony coming from the Amsterdam when we were docked at Anchorage on one of their 14 day Alaska cruises in July 2017. It just seemed weird as it kept flowing from the ship for a good 10-15 minutes.

[CruiserBruce]

55 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I always wondered what that white bubbly stuff was that we saw from our balcony coming from the Amsterdam when we were docked at Anchorage on one of their 14 day Alaska cruises in July 2017. It just seemed weird as it kept flowing from the ship for a good 10-15 minutes.

Your observation is not any proof that something illegal was occurring. 

[prescottbob]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While I agree that gray water discharges, in certain areas, are not a big deal, in fact ships are allowed to discharge untreated gray water at sea (in a controlled fashion, while underway), in certain areas it can be devastating to the marine environment, and those areas are delineated as "no discharge areas", and this is what the violation did.  Gray water is not just "bathroom shower, tub and sink water only", it also includes galley and laundry water.  Laundry water can contain phosphates which can cause algae blooms and depletion of oxygen in the water (especially when concentrated in a small area), and galley water can have food waste leading to overnutrients in the water.

 

I am an "inside" critic, I live and work in the maritime industry, and I deal with these environmental regulations every day of my working life (40+ years), and I not only applaud the advances we have made in environmental protection over that span, but I have nothing but contempt for corporations like Carnival who have repeatedly (I believe the original violation against Princess cruises was 19 years ago) ignored and knowingly violated those regulations.

 

And, as for HAL's record, I am trying to download the Court Appointed Monitor's report from 2018, but not sure I can get to the relevant part before CC goes down for maintenance today, but I remember that HAL had several ships noted for various violations, so no, Father, HAL is not perfect, and HAL has just as much to answer for as the rest of Carnival's brands.

 

True. I guess I should have said a ONE time spill/discharge of gray water would be diluted enough to not effect micronutrients, cause algal blooms, etc. versus continual discharge that definitely would. And I certainly agree that non of the cruise ships are perfect in wastewater management (e.g. equipment failures, human errors, etc.) but do believe they've come a mighty long way from "way back when" on both land and sea.. 

 

As  far as my credentials, I've been in and out of wastewater treatment & water  management (land based only) since the mid-1970's. But no need to get in "the weeds", as it were. I certainly respect your marine experience & enjoy your 'inside' posts in the past..

 

In any event I'll attach a couple of 2019 report links regarding large and small cruise ships for those that would like to view specific parameters, etc. When reading scientific reports it's always been my habit to read the summaries & methods and only really "get in the weeds" (e.g. various tables, charts, etc.), if interested.

 

 

https://dec.alaska.gov/media/19075/2019-large-cruise-ship-wastewater-report-final.pdf

 

https://dec.alaska.gov/media/19076/2019-small-cruise-ship-and-ferry-wastewater-report-final.pdf

 

Be well.

Bob

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by prescottbob
spelling

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, CruiserBruce said:

Your observation is not any proof that something illegal was occurring. 

Didn't say it was. We just thought it was weird that HAL was dumping some "white foamy substance" into the Anchorage harbor while in port for the day. To be honest we had NEVER seen that before on any cruise we have been on and just wondered what it was. The comment that it was probably gray water just made sense unless you know what else it might have been. I'm sure if it was illegal the Anchorage port folks would have pointed it out to HAL, but of course we would never know that.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Didn't say it was. We just thought it was weird that HAL was dumping some "white foamy substance" into the Anchorage harbor while in port for the day. To be honest we had NEVER seen that before on any cruise we have been on and just wondered what it was. The comment that it was probably gray water just made sense unless you know what else it might have been. I'm sure if it was illegal the Anchorage port folks would have pointed it out to HAL, but of course we would never know that.

Well, given that the Amsterdam only had an old style MSD (Marine Sanitation Device), and was not allowed to discharge any wastewater (gray or black) anywhere in Alaskan waters (out to 3 miles from shore), I doubt the discharge was gray water.  As noted in the Alaska ADEC reports linked by prescottbob, only a limited number of ships, depending on their wastewater treatment systems, are allowed to discharge treated wastewater while docked or anchored.

 

I suspect that the foaming was caused by sea water with a high amount of dissolved organic matter.  As most Arctic waters in the summer are high in krill and nutrients, I would suspect Anchorage harbor to be similar, and/or high organic matter from the municipal wastewater system.  Ship's pumps will also create this dissolved organic matter as they chop up marine life that has gotten through the strainers.  Anyway, ballast water (sitting static in a ballast tank can encourage marine growth), or merely sea water cooling while the engineers switch from the low sea suction (on the bottom of the ship) to the high sea suction (on the side of the ship), would be my opinion on a short term foamy discharge.  Typically, untreated gray water has so much biological load in it, that soaps and detergents are depleted by the time they are discharged.

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Didn't say it was. We just thought it was weird that HAL was dumping some "white foamy substance" into the Anchorage harbor while in port for the day. To be honest we had NEVER seen that before on any cruise we have been on and just wondered what it was. The comment that it was probably gray water just made sense unless you know what else it might have been. I'm sure if it was illegal the Anchorage port folks would have pointed it out to HAL, but of course we would never know that.

 

Chengkp75's explanation is probably more accurate than mine, but I too have noticed foam forming at the seawater cooling discharge points.  Knowing it to be raw seawater that was only used to cool the engines, and the fact it discharges much warmer than when it went in, I just assume it has to do with the fact air releases...and therefore foams...much easier from warm water, especially when it suddenly meets cold water that is moving.  The small eddies help release the air and voila...foam.  

[Ken the cruiser]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, given that the Amsterdam only had an old style MSD (Marine Sanitation Device), and was not allowed to discharge any wastewater (gray or black) anywhere in Alaskan waters (out to 3 miles from shore), I doubt the discharge was gray water.  As noted in the Alaska ADEC reports linked by prescottbob, only a limited number of ships, depending on their wastewater treatment systems, are allowed to discharge treated wastewater while docked or anchored.

 

I suspect that the foaming was caused by sea water with a high amount of dissolved organic matter.  As most Arctic waters in the summer are high in krill and nutrients, I would suspect Anchorage harbor to be similar, and/or high organic matter from the municipal wastewater system.  Ship's pumps will also create this dissolved organic matter as they chop up marine life that has gotten through the strainers.  Anyway, ballast water (sitting static in a ballast tank can encourage marine growth), or merely sea water cooling while the engineers switch from the low sea suction (on the bottom of the ship) to the high sea suction (on the side of the ship), would be my opinion on a short term foamy discharge.  Typically, untreated gray water has so much biological load in it, that soaps and detergents are depleted by the time they are discharged.

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clearing this up.