State bans on vaccine passports

[DaveSJ711]

4 minutes ago, Twitchly said:

I think they might, actually, at least for vaccinated folks. Given the incredibly low rate of Covid cases among the vaccinated, I suspect the CDC is still advising they (we) wear masks only because it’s impossible to know from looking at someone who has been vaccinated and who hasn’t. So they just advise everyone to wear a mask until cases fall to some acceptable level, whatever that may be.

 

That’s the only rationale I can think of, anyway. 

Another explanation is that the CDC has a scientific basis for its statements and recommendations. It's the Center for Disease Control, after all. But this explanation doesn't fit your narrative, so you call it theater.

[Mich3554]

1 hour ago, Twitchly said:

I think they might, actually, at least for vaccinated folks. Given the incredibly low rate of Covid cases among the vaccinated, I suspect the CDC is still advising they (we) wear masks only because it’s impossible to know from looking at someone who has been vaccinated and who hasn’t. So they just advise everyone to wear a mask until cases fall to some acceptable level, whatever that may be.

 

That’s the only rationale I can think of, anyway. 

The rationale for asking people to be masked even while vaccinated is because they still do not know whether vaccinated people can transmit it.

The metrics for the vaccine when they did the clinical testing last summer/fall were (1) did it prevent severe disease and did it prevent (2)hospitalization/(3)death?  Logically, you’d want to include a few more parameters in this, but more variables means a longer time to release of vaccine and those 3 variables I listed were what was important.  
So while the data is an overwhelming yes, that the the vaccine prevents these, they are still trying to tease out if a healthy vaccinated individual can transmit a pathogenic virus to a susceptible individual (like Typhoid Mary, she was immune herself but it didn’t stop her from transmitting the bacteria.....so there is your precedent).  Last data I saw it is looking promising, but as the vaccine has only been out less than 6 months, they are still collecting data.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Mich3554

[Jim Avery]

2 hours ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

The CDC doesn't think of masking as "theater," and neither do I.

So you go to a restaurant, at the front door put on a mask, walk 40 or so feet to a table, take off mask for the duration of the meal.  If you are not holding your breath during the meal, you are masking solely for show.  Just one example of the stupidity of bureaucratic mask "rules".

[Twitchly]

1 hour ago, Mich3554 said:

The rationale for asking people to be masked even while vaccinated is because they still do not know whether vaccinated people can transmit it.

The metrics for the vaccine when they did the clinical testing last summer/fall were (1) did it prevent severe disease and did it prevent (2)hospitalization/(3)death?  Logically, you’d want to include a few more parameters in this, but more variables means a longer time to release of vaccine and those 3 variables I listed were what was important.  
So while the data is an overwhelming yes, that the the vaccine prevents these, they are still trying to tease out if a healthy vaccinated individual can transmit a pathogenic virus to a susceptible individual (like Typhoid Mary, she was immune herself but it didn’t stop her from transmitting the bacteria.....so there is your precedent).  Last data I saw it is looking promising, but as the vaccine has only been out less than 6 months, they are still collecting data.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful reply. Much appreciated!

 

The data is indeed looking extremely promising. I wish we saw more about this in news. Maybe it would prod more reluctant folks to get vaccinated. 

[LindaS272]

50 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

So you go to a restaurant, at the front door put on a mask, walk 40 or so feet to a table, take off mask for the duration of the meal.  If you are not holding your breath during the meal, you are masking solely for show.  Just one example of the stupidity of bureaucratic mask "rules".

Jim, nobody does that. First off, in our state, we are only recently at 50% capacity in some counties for some restaurants. Social distancing is still in effect and many restaurants are upgrading their ventilation systems for airflow. Most people I know are still not going to restaurants even at the 50% capacity rule. Some are sitting outside where they know there is maximal airflow. Even indoors there are often limits to the amount of time you can spend at the table and who can be at the table—vaccinated, or family members in a bubble. In addition, the staff are wearing masks the whole time, even if vaccinated. I think Viking on these first cruises will have variants of what our state is doing now with regard to dining.

[Jim Avery]

14 minutes ago, LindaS272 said:

Jim, nobody does that. First off, in our state, we are only recently at 50% capacity in some counties for some restaurants. Social distancing is still in effect and many restaurants are upgrading their ventilation systems for airflow. Most people I know are still not going to restaurants even at the 50% capacity rule. Some are sitting outside where they know there is maximal airflow. Even indoors there are often limits to the amount of time you can spend at the table and who can be at the table—vaccinated, or family members in a bubble. In addition, the staff are wearing masks the whole time, even if vaccinated. I think Viking on these first cruises will have variants of what our state is doing now with regard to dining.

You are wrong.  We have done exactly that twice so far this week alone.  Exactly as I described.  Here's another thing for you to consider.  I have heard various "experts" refer to covid as an "aerosol virus".  In other words a virus carried in droplets small enough to hang in the air for a longer period of time than simple droplets.  So go in your sealed up living room masked up.  Spray your favorite aerosol air freshener.  If you can smell it, your mask is not very effective against aerosol viruses.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Uuh-ahem,   I support mask wearing because it improves the looks of the vast majority of people.

[Moonlion]

3 hours ago, Twitchly said:

I’m also fully vaccinated and wear a mask only to make others around me feel comfortable. I think it’s just theater at this point. Of the 87 million people fully vaccinated in this country so far, there have been 7,157 “breakthrough” cases of Covid. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html 

 

That’s a whopping .0082 percent. My chances of being in a fatal car accident — about 1 in 103, according to the National Safety Council — are much higher than my chances of getting or transmitting Covid.

 

Telling vaccinated people to keep wearing masks isn’t “science.” I’m not sure what it is, frankly. 
 

On the bright side, these vaccines are proving to be astonishingly effective, even in the face of multiple variants. That’s a pretty fantastic piece of good news that should be on the front page of every newspaper! 

If you go to CDC's website, the "7,157 'breakthrough' cases" are an undercount because not all breakthrough cases get reported to the CDC.  More reliable data comes from the controlled clinical trials and post trial analysis which indicates a 90% protection rate with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.  Real-world data from Israel confirms this and suggests that the Pfizer vaccine is 94% effective at preventing Covid infections.  While this is extremely effective, it is not 100%.  On a Viking ship with 1500 fully-vaccinated passenger and crew, around 150 infections will still occur and a small number of these cases will require hospitalization or lead to death. 

 

The reason that the CDC recommends mask wearing among the vaccinated is to protect the unvaccinated and to bring down the number of cases in the population to as low as possible.  This will also help to slow the evolution (and spread) of new Covid variants that are resistant to the current vaccines.  Eventually, the hope is to vaccinate enough people such that "herd immunity" is reached and the virus fizzles out in the population similar to polio and smallpox. 

[Jim Avery]

5 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Uuh-ahem,   I support mask wearing because it improves the looks of the vast majority of people.

And helps contain your drool....😳

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

10 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

And helps contain your drool....😳

That’s not drool, it’s the venom that drips from my tongue 😈

[MarkTapley]

1 hour ago, Moonlion said:

Real-world data from Israel confirms this and suggests that the Pfizer vaccine is 94% effective at preventing Covid infections.  While this is extremely effective, it is not 100%.  On a Viking ship with 1500 fully-vaccinated passenger and crew, around 150 infections will still occur and a small number of these cases will require hospitalization or lead to death. 

 

 

Do you have a source for this statement?  My understanding is that the “effectiveness” of a vaccine is measured against a control group who were unvaccinated.

 

A cursory Google search reveals many articles such as this one:

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html
 

The pertinent take-away:

 

“One common misunderstanding is that 95% efficacy means that in the Pfizer clinical trial, 5% of vaccinated people got COVID. But that's not true; the actual percentage of vaccinated people in the Pfizer (and Moderna) trials who got COVID-19 was about a hundred times less than that: 0.04%.”

[LindaS272]

2 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

You are wrong.  We have done exactly that twice so far this week alone.  Exactly as I described.  Here's another thing for you to consider.  I have heard various "experts" refer to covid as an "aerosol virus".  In other words a virus carried in droplets small enough to hang in the air for a longer period of time than simple droplets.  So go in your sealed up living room masked up.  Spray your favorite aerosol air freshener.  If you can smell it, your mask is not very effective against aerosol viruses.

Okay, well, you have been exposing yourself and other people unnecessarily if there has not been proper air flow in the restaurant and adequate distance between the tables.

[rbslos18]

Let’s get back to talking about cruises. Those who are ignorant of the science or reject it for political reasons will never be convinced. Those who dismiss how masks have saved lives will never get it. Fine.

 Let’s agree the vaccines are modern day miracles that will make cruising possible. The vaccinations achieved the past 100 days are miraculous.

The purpose of CC is to share and inform others about cruising.

The CDC news release today is what we all have been waiting for. Let’s get back to talking about Viking and being kind to one another.

RB

Edited April 29, 2021 by rbslos18

[Moonlion]

1 hour ago, MarkTapley said:

 

Do you have a source for this statement?  My understanding is that the “effectiveness” of a vaccine is measured against a control group who were unvaccinated.

 

A cursory Google search reveals many articles such as this one:

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html
 

The pertinent take-away:

 

“One common misunderstanding is that 95% efficacy means that in the Pfizer clinical trial, 5% of vaccinated people got COVID. But that's not true; the actual percentage of vaccinated people in the Pfizer (and Moderna) trials who got COVID-19 was about a hundred times less than that: 0.04%.”

Here is the Israeli source: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer.  However, you are correct (my bad...), the appropriate comparison is with how many people are likely to become infected on an unvaccinated ship... which depends on a lot of factors.  Also, there is very promising but early data that vaccinated people if infected are much less likely to transmit the virus to others.  My husband and I are vaccinated and looking forward to our Viking cruise next January '22.  We will ungrudgingly wear masks if requested to do so. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

1 hour ago, rbslos18 said:

The vaccinations achieved the past 100 days are miraculous.

Not miracle, it’s the result of OWS.

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

You are wrong.  We have done exactly that twice so far this week alone.  Exactly as I described.  Here's another thing for you to consider.  I have heard various "experts" refer to covid as an "aerosol virus".  In other words a virus carried in droplets small enough to hang in the air for a longer period of time than simple droplets.  So go in your sealed up living room masked up.  Spray your favorite aerosol air freshener.  If you can smell it, your mask is not very effective against aerosol viruses.

 

Jim - that was also our requirements in BC. When our restaurants & pubs were open (they only closed 2 or 3 weeks ago), masks were mandatory upon entering the building and were worn enroute to the table. Only when seated at the table, could you remove the mask. Any time you left the table, the mask must be worn again and no visiting at other tables was permitted.

 

In addition, restaurants/pubs were at a max of 50%, with a minimum of 6' between adjacent operational tables and, in addition, numerous prespex barriers were installed between tables. All waiters/waitresses wore masks at all times.  When we dined out, we were very comfortable with the safety measures implemented.

 

The OSH training we received clearly states that the masks most people wear are not a 100% guarantee of safety from COVID. No way we would have entered a cargo tank, or even applied epoxy paint with a cloth mask. As you noted, if you can smell through the mask it isn't working. We also had to attend and pass annual fit tests. While the N95's provide a reasonable seal, none of our cloth masks provide a seal at the edges.

 

However, I do wear a mask and consider it as an additional level of protection, allbeit accepting that social distancing, etc are much more effective. Just like the swiss cheese model, the mask gives another level of protection.

 

We have both cloth and N95 masks. While the N95 are more effective than the cloth ones, even they do not provide 100% protection, as they are only required to filter at least 95% of airbourne particles and no fit test is required.

[Twitchly]

2 hours ago, MarkTapley said:

 

Do you have a source for this statement?  My understanding is that the “effectiveness” of a vaccine is measured against a control group who were unvaccinated.

 

A cursory Google search reveals many articles such as this one:

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html
 

The pertinent take-away:

 

“One common misunderstanding is that 95% efficacy means that in the Pfizer clinical trial, 5% of vaccinated people got COVID. But that's not true; the actual percentage of vaccinated people in the Pfizer (and Moderna) trials who got COVID-19 was about a hundred times less than that: 0.04%.”

This is very helpful. Thank you. I wish more of us understood this. (Including me.) There would probably be a lot less fear and a lot more rejoicing. 

[Cienfuegos]

Good thread, I'm learning a lot.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines requiring a high level of vaccination intersect with the Florida state guidelines prohibiting the cruise lines from demanding vaccination as a condition for boarding.

 

(My guess is the state will withdraw its rules as the cruise lines have $$$ in the sight lines.  Money talks.)

[rbslos18]

1 hour ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Not miracle, it’s the result of OWS.

Operation Warp Speed created vaccines in record time. Kudos to Former President Trump. President Biden gets kudos for the infrastructure that got the vaccines in our arms. Both administrations contributed to this miracle which will save untold lives.

[rbslos18]

1 hour ago, Twitchly said:

This is very helpful. Thank you. I wish more of us understood this. (Including me.) There would probably be a lot less fear and a lot more rejoicing. 

There is a fabulous podcast, In the Bubble that weekly brings the latest to listeners. The science is presented in layman terms. Bottom line, once you are vaccinated your life can change for the better. The risk of infection is very low. I have zero concerns going on a cruise with other vaccinated passengers and not wearing a mask around them.