DeSantis is OK with NCL leaving Florida

[cscurlock]

5 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Thanks.  I'm figuring Desantis can not stop digital vaccine proof (like a digital copy of the CDC Covid vaccine or certified digital proof of vaccines).  So, I'm figuring that will be required to check in, just like your passport number.  At that point, whatever he says is a moot point.

 

Again, it would be political and economic suicide for him to keep the ships from sailing.

The only thing they can do is fine the company because that is all the current law allows. After that it will go to court and be found unconstitutional. That will be the end of it at that point.

[Junonia]

3 hours ago, cscurlock said:

  The CDC has every right under the constitution to lay out rules for foreign flagged vessels under the commerce clause.

No they don’t. They are scientists, not lawmakers and certainly not elected officials . Show me where in the Constitution it says this please.

[Junonia]

33 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Civics 101 missing in education for so many. Social media influence and a lack of intellectual curiosity.  The incessant need for an echo chamber. Group think.  They are all possibilities.  

Are you guys some kind of paid echo chamber yourselves? Maybe all one in the same person? Look in the mirror to see who is truly lacking in intellectual curiosity. If you think the rights of fellow Americans to move about freely should be impeded so you can go on vacation, then you have a serious moral and ethical dilemma. 

[Junonia]

24 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Again, it would be political and economic suicide for him to keep the ships from sailing.

They haven’t sailed for nearly 18 months. Florida’s economy is booming without them. As much as I also enjoy them, we are at a fork in the road of history. 

[cscurlock]

26 minutes ago, Junonia said:

No they don’t. They are scientists, not lawmakers and certainly not elected officials . Show me where in the Constitution it says this please.

The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

 

As I said they have the authority under the constitution and its been that way for a long time now.

Edited May 29, 2021 by cscurlock

[harkinmr]

8 minutes ago, Junonia said:

Are you guys some kind of paid echo chamber yourselves? Maybe all one in the same person? Look in the mirror to see who is truly lacking in intellectual curiosity. If you think the rights of fellow Americans to move about freely should be impeded so you can go on vacation, then you have a serious moral and ethical dilemma. 

"The rights of fellow Americans to move about freely"?  Do you even understand what is an unconstitutional impingement on the right to move about?  This is where Civics 101 education comes in handy.  A vaccine requirement for a cruise line is not an impediment to any American's right to move about freely.  There is no constitutional right to go on a cruise, nor to secure any particular type of good or service.  There are protections for certain kinds of discrimination in providing a good or service, and, as of now, none of those protections extend to not wanting to get a vaccine.  This Governor, to date, has been all about free enterprise and adamantly against interference in business by state or federal government.  But now that it is his interference, based upon some unsupported claim that a vaccine requirement is discriminatory, then all of a sudden it is appropriate for the State of Florida to interfere in and impede business within the state.  It's hypocrisy on steroids.  Pure and simple.  

[cscurlock]

13 minutes ago, Junonia said:

They haven’t sailed for nearly 18 months. Florida’s economy is booming without them. As much as I also enjoy them, we are at a fork in the road of history. 

As you have just proven Florida has not been harmed by the cruise industry closing.  So all the mediation and injunction lawsuit should just be thrown out because that is the argument the state is bringing.

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

 

As I said they have the authority under the constitution and its been that way for a long time now.

Research is a wonderful thing.  

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

As you have just proven Florida has not been harmed by the cruise industry closing.  So all the mediation and injunction lawsuit should just be thrown out because that is the argument the state is bringing.

Heh. Nice.

Edited May 29, 2021 by harkinmr

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

Heh.

Extreme positions on either side doesn't work well.  One lady in another forum basically stating that every person has to be vaccinated to cruise.  That's an extreme position.  Because some people have medical reasons and they cannot get the vaccine.  This guy stating that non vaccinated cruises should be the only way and that the local state government should fine the cruise lines even though the person involved might be from another state or voluntarily give them the information is just as extreme position.  The middle position is let the cruise lines do both and then its a win for everyone.  That is currently what will happen when this law is overturned and it will be.

[harkinmr]

Just now, cscurlock said:

Extreme positions on either side doesn't work well.  One lady in another forum basically stating that every person has to be vaccinated to cruise.  That's an extreme position.  Because some people have medical reasons and they cannot get the vaccine.  This guy stating that non vaccinated cruises should be the only way and that the local state government should fine the cruise lines even though the person involved might be from another state or voluntarily give them the information is just as extreme position.  The middle position is let the cruise lines do both and then its a win for everyone.  That is currently what will happen when this law is overturned and it will be.

I agree.  Give the cruise lines and passengers a choice.  It's the way back to cruising.

[coffeebean]

49 minutes ago, Junonia said:

They haven’t sailed for nearly 18 months. Florida’s economy is booming without them. As much as I also enjoy them, we are at a fork in the road of history. 

Florida's economy will BOOM even more with the cruise industry revenue. Why toss all those cruise industry related jobs and not look back? The cruise industry is worth 9 Billion to Florida. To abandon that revenue is not a good look for Florida, IMHO.

[WarfRatWA]

15 minutes ago, Junonia said:

You have in insisting that an unelected body derives power from the Constitution to govern (remember the federal judge striking down their eviction moratorium?) and trying to apply it to your right to cruise. Beyond ridiculous 

The CDC is a part of Health and Human Services (HHS), which has been part of the executive branch since 1953 and arguably since 1939.  HHS was authorized by congress which was duly elected by the people.   The executive branch derives its power from the constitution, specifically Article 2 of our Constitution.  Your personal opinion notwithstanding, this is how our system of government works. 

[At Sea At Peace]

25 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

The CDC is a part of Health and Human Services (HHS), which has been part of the executive branch since 1953 and arguably since 1939.  HHS was authorized by congress which was duly elected by the people.   The executive branch derives its power from the constitution, specifically Article 2 of our Constitution.  Your personal opinion notwithstanding, this is how our system of government works. 

 

Isn't the Constitution of a pre-date?

 

The simple point of the member was that the Constitution doesn't give the CDC power (is correct). 

 

Massive hair-splitting here.

 

The federal government, however, does derive its Constitutional power in our instance under the Commerce Clause of Article 1.  IMO.

 

Federal Laws and Regulations for Control of Communicable Diseases are further codified in the United States Code.  

 

Principally, Title 42 – The Public Health and Welfare, Chapter 6A – Public Health Service, Subchapter II – General Powers and Duties, Part G – Quarantine and Inspection

 

Per the CDC ~

 

The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services has statutory responsibility for preventing the introduction, transmission, and spread of communicable diseases in the United States. Under its delegated authority, the Division of Global Migration and Quarantine works to fulfill this responsibility through a variety of activities, including ~

 

~ the operation of Quarantine Stations at ports of entry

 

~ establishment of standards for medical examination of persons destined for the United States, and

 

~ administration of interstate and foreign quarantine regulations, which govern the international and interstate movement of persons, animals, and cargo.

 

Currently there is a debate, turned into a divide, about vaccine passports.  It is what it is.  When this is resolved another 'divide' will be generated and this will all continue.

 

I'm now headed to the Haven bar for something a tad stronger than wine 🙄 and then head down to Food Republic for a snack.  😋

Edited May 29, 2021 by At Sea At Peace

[graphicguy]

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

"The rights of fellow Americans to move about freely"?  Do you even understand what is an unconstitutional impingement on the right to move about?  This is where Civics 101 education comes in handy.  A vaccine requirement for a cruise line is not an impediment to any American's right to move about freely.  There is no constitutional right to go on a cruise, nor to secure any particular type of good or service.  There are protections for certain kinds of discrimination in providing a good or service, and, as of now, none of those protections extend to not wanting to get a vaccine.  This Governor, to date, has been all about free enterprise and adamantly against interference in business by state or federal government.  But now that it is his interference, based upon some unsupported claim that a vaccine requirement is discriminatory, then all of a sudden it is appropriate for the State of Florida to interfere in and impede business within the state.  It's hypocrisy on steroids.  Pure and simple.  

Thanks.  Beat me to it.  I shook my head about the freedom statement.  You summed it up well.  Plus, this guy’s argument that it’s OK to totally trash a $120B industry that employs 1M people.  I doubt very seriously that the cruise lines would survive another COVID outbreak on a ship.  That would bury them.

 

If you want to eat in a restaurant, you have to wear shirts, shoes, pants, etc.  My guess is, if you’re hacking all over other people, the same restaurant will ask you to leave.  If you don’t want the vaccine, no big deal.  It’s going to be a while before you’ll cruise, but you’ll be able to.

 

I can’t understand anyone’s desire to expose themselves to someone who has COVID if they’re unvaccinated.

 

None of any of this has anything to do with freedom.  Don’t try to make that argument.  It makes no sense.

[WarfRatWA]

9 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Thanks.  Beat me to it.  I shook my head about the freedom statement.  You summed it up well.  Plus, this guy’s argument that it’s OK to totally trash a $120B industry that employs 1M people.  I doubt very seriously that the cruise lines would survive another COVID outbreak on a ship.  That would bury them.

 

If you want to eat in a restaurant, you have to wear shirts, shoes, pants, etc.  My guess is, if you’re hacking all over other people, the same restaurant will ask you to leave.  If you don’t want the vaccine, no big deal.  It’s going to be a while before you’ll cruise, but you’ll be able to.

 

I can’t understand anyone’s desire to expose themselves to someone who has COVID if they’re unvaccinated.

 

None of any of this has anything to do with freedom.  Don’t try to make that argument.  It makes no sense.

No shoes, no shirt, no service!  We all remember that.

[Junonia]

1 hour ago, WarfRatWA said:

The CDC is a part of Health and Human Services (HHS), which has been part of the executive branch since 1953 and arguably since 1939.  HHS was authorized by congress which was duly elected by the people.   The executive branch derives its power from the constitution, specifically Article 2 of our Constitution.  Your personal opinion notwithstanding, this is how our system of government works. 

CDC still has no governing authority, despite what you may wish. Thoughts and hopes do not constitute reality. Look no further than the federal judge striking down their eviction moratorium DURING a state of emergency. I am not going to argue with you over this anymore. Feelings are not facts.

[DCGuy64]

33 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

No shoes, no shirt, no service!  We all remember that.

I hope you’d agree that getting a shot in one’s  arm is just a little different than being fully clothed. 

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, Junonia said:

CDC still has no governing authority, despite what you may wish. Thoughts and hopes do not constitute reality. Look no further than the federal judge striking down their eviction moratorium DURING a state of emergency. I am not going to argue with you over this anymore. Feelings are not facts.

That is where you are wrong. The CDC has significant regulatory authority. Regulations are derived directly from legislative and constitutional authority.  The eviction moratorium case is based on a claim of acting outside the scope of the CDC’s authority to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.  The judge’s ruling is currently under appeal.  The CDC’s authority over all types of international transport, including cruise lines, is well-established historically through federal statutes.  Just because you proclaim things to be true without any real legal support does not make what you say right. It is just a misguided and misinformed opinion. Opinions, like feelings, are not facts. 

[CPT Trips]

6 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Ironic, isn’t it.  A politician that has fully supported private enterprise rights and called for limited government interference all of a sudden puts himself squarely opposite that position.  SMH. 

Hypocrisy from a politician of his ilk doesn’t come as a surprise.  

[graphicguy]

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I hope you’d agree that getting a shot in one’s  arm is just a little different than being fully clothed. 

Point being, as an example, a restaurant can restrict you from entering their establishments if you are doing something unhealthy like not wearing shoes or tops.

 

No one is stopping you from cruising.  But, as they always have done, the cruise lines ask if you’re healthy (i.e. digestive issues, congestive issues, etc) before boarding.  You actually give your signature promising you are healthy before boarding.  If you say you aren’t, you don’t board.   Given the Pandemic, the cruise lines are asking if you are vaccinated to prevent being where we were the last half of 2020.  We do not want another surge of COVID to add to the astronomical 580,000+ deaths already recorded.

 

YOU do not have to get a vaccine.  If you do, however, you’re cruising now, with no masks or distancing.  If you don’t, you can still cruise.  You just have to wait for the SUCCESSFUL TEST CRUISES AND YOU’LL HAVE TO WEAR A MASK AND DISTANCE.  You’re free to choose!

[DCGuy64]

6 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Point being, as an example, a restaurant can restrict you from entering their establishments if you are doing something unhealthy like not wearing shoes or tops.

 

No one is stopping you from cruising.  But, as they always have done, the cruise lines ask if you’re healthy (i.e. digestive issues, congestive issues, etc) before boarding.  You actually give your signature promising you are healthy before boarding.  If you say you aren’t, you don’t board.   Given the Pandemic, the cruise lines are asking if you are vaccinated to prevent being where we were the last half of 2020.  We do not want another surge of COVID to add to the astronomical 580,000+ deaths already recorded.

 

YOU do not have to get a vaccine.  If you do, however, you’re cruising now, with no masks or distancing.  If you don’t, you can still cruise.  You just have to wait for the SUCCESSFUL TEST CRUISES AND YOU’LL HAVE TO WEAR A MASK AND DISTANCE.  You’re free to choose!

Being vaccinated already, I can only assume the “YOU” at the beginning of your last paragraph was the universal “you,” as in the general public, rather than me personally. 
I simply believe that the comparison of the wearing of shoes and shirt to that of getting a vaccine is an inapt one. For starters, you can instantly see whether someone has clothes on, but you have to be more intrusive and personal when it comes to health questions. And I disagree with the many posters on here who simplistically try to argue that “no vaccine = no cruise.” It won’t be that simple, 

[graphicguy]

5 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Being vaccinated already, I can only assume the “YOU” at the beginning of your last paragraph was the universal “you,” as in the general public, rather than me personally. 
I simply believe that the comparison of the wearing of shoes and shirt to that of getting a vaccine is an inapt one. For starters, you can instantly see whether someone has clothes on, but you have to be more intrusive and personal when it comes to health questions. And I disagree with the many posters on here who simplistically try to argue that “no vaccine = no cruise.” It won’t be that simple, 

Yes….universal “You”.

 

Again, non-vaccinated passengers can cruise.  They have to wait for the test cruises to be completed.  And, they’ll need to wear a mask and socially distance for a while.  

[At Sea At Peace]

11 hours ago, harkinmr said:

 Opinions, like feelings, are not facts. 

 

Correct. 

 

As the member stated, the CDC does not make laws.

 

Certifying that as an opinion is an opinion.

 

The CDC tool is regulation.

 

Based on performance, in their 'regulatory capacity,' it's time to consider a major overhaul of the CDC.

 

1.  The CDC is the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.  They failed miserably in Prevention.  No larger mistake was made then the 2-months it took for the CDC requiring an independent test for Covid 19 after it had been given a highly effective test by WHO.

 

2.  The CDC then failed at Disease Control.  Again, inexplicable guidance on the virus, totally manipulated in concert with the media and federal and state political factions.  Credibility was lost and it will likely impact compliance going forward; i.e., vaccinations (with lack of support for vaccinating pre-infected and the young (especially those < 19 years of age, 300 total deaths) and with regard to future potential health issues.

 

Although we are vaccinated, support both restricted vaccinated only cruises (as an option as a consumer) and unvaccinated cruises (same option), and were ardent compliant mask and actual isolationists (talk about social distancing) during the peak of the pandemic until fully vaccinated, the CDC is applying specific restrictions on cruise ships than now are vested in guidelines for literally almost everything else.

 

The basis?  If MLB, NHL, NBA, PGA stadiums and concerts with people together for 3-4 hours, and the CDC guideline for potential for transmission is 15 minutes (continuous or in intervals that make up 15 minutes in a 24 hour period) then it is simply unique to look the other way for such but not for cruise ships.

 

 

[harkinmr]

31 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Correct. 

 

As the member stated, the CDC does not make laws.

 

Certifying that as an opinion is an opinion.

 

The CDC tool is regulation.

 

Based on performance, in their 'regulatory capacity,' it's time to consider a major overhaul of the CDC.

 

1.  The CDC is the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.  They failed miserably in Prevention.  No larger mistake was made then the 2-months it took for the CDC requiring an independent test for Covid 19 after it had been given a highly effective test by WHO.

 

2.  The CDC then failed at Disease Control.  Again, inexplicable guidance on the virus, totally manipulated in concert with the media and federal and state political factions.  Credibility was lost and it will likely impact compliance going forward; i.e., vaccinations (with lack of support for vaccinating pre-infected and the young (especially those < 19 years of age, 300 total deaths) and with regard to future potential health issues.

 

Although we are vaccinated, support both restricted vaccinated only cruises (as an option as a consumer) and unvaccinated cruises (same option), and were ardent compliant mask and actual isolationists (talk about social distancing) during the peak of the pandemic until fully vaccinated, the CDC is applying specific restrictions on cruise ships than now are vested in guidelines for literally almost everything else.

 

The basis?  If MLB, NHL, NBA, PGA stadiums and concerts with people together for 3-4 hours, and the CDC guideline for potential for transmission is 15 minutes (continuous or in intervals that make up 15 minutes in a 24 hour period) then it is simply unique to look the other way for such but not for cruise ships.

 

 

Your opinion. Thanks for sharing. Disagree wholeheartedly.

 

Gee, that was fun. 🙄