DeSantis is OK with NCL leaving Florida

[At Sea At Peace]

3 minutes ago, oteixeira said:

Seems like this expert can be trusted....

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/floridas-vaccine-passport-ban-cruises-likely-unconstitutional-attorney-says

 

Again, attorneys represent all sides and support such side taken with equal assurances all of the time.

 

So, this is just one attorney with just one opinion as it doesn't appear that he, or his firm, disclosed that any of the affected cruise lines are clients.  And he is entitled to such.

 

However ~

 

One aspect of the articles' quoted Attorney Kritzman regarding his experience is his potential lack of "independence" in fact or appearance in this regard because of his long-term employment in the cruise industry, specifically NCL?

 

https://lewisbrisbois.com/newsroom/press-releases/lewis-brisbois-boosts-national-business-practices-group-with-ft.-lauderdale

 

"Prior to re-entering private practice, Mr. Kritzman spent 17 years with Norwegian Cruise Line (NCL), serving first as the executive vice president and general counsel for NCL, and later as the managing director for NCL America. In these roles, he handled mergers and acquisitions, corporate financings, oversaw Human Resources, managed government affairs, and guided strategic planning and development. Mr. Kritzman also led NCL’s expansion into Hawaii."

 

 

[oteixeira]

5 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Again, attorneys represent all sides and support such side taken with equal assurances all of the time.

 

So, this is just one attorney with just one opinion as it doesn't appear that he, or his firm, disclosed that any of the affected cruise lines are clients.  And he is entitled to such.

 

However ~

 

One aspect of the articles' quoted Attorney Kritzman regarding his experience is his potential lack of "independence" in fact or appearance in this regard because of his long-term employment in the cruise industry, specifically NCL?

 

https://lewisbrisbois.com/newsroom/press-releases/lewis-brisbois-boosts-national-business-practices-group-with-ft.-lauderdale

 

"Prior to re-entering private practice, Mr. Kritzman spent 17 years with Norwegian Cruise Line (NCL), serving first as the executive vice president and general counsel for NCL, and later as the managing director for NCL America. In these roles, he handled mergers and acquisitions, corporate financings, oversaw Human Resources, managed government affairs, and guided strategic planning and development. Mr. Kritzman also led NCL’s expansion into Hawaii."

 

 

I mean, you don't become an expert in maritime law without actually having a past in it somehow.  I am just saying he probably understands the law more then most others commenting on it.  I trust he knows what he is talking about.    

[vswan]

It's going to be interesting to watch this play out. The cruise lines need to get back to business in a safe way, the CDC is trying to set guidelines for safety, and the governor wants things opened up for everyone. All of these things can't exist at the same time.

 

Add in the passengers. Many only want to sail on vaccinated cruises. Some don't think it should matter - if you are vaccinated why would you care if I'm vaccinated. Others are upset that younger children would be excluded if vaccination is a requirement. I am vaccinated and want the vaccinated cruises with less restrictions.

 

Things are changing daily. We just need to wait and see how this all plays out. At least things appear to be starting to move along. For now I have one cruise booked for late November and FCC that needs to be booked by the end of the year. Just holding on to book until I see what's going to happen.

[Stallion]

3 hours ago, oteixeira said:

Seems like this expert can be trusted....

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/floridas-vaccine-passport-ban-cruises-likely-unconstitutional-attorney-says

I'm still waiting for the first maritime "expert" to state that Desantis is correct-I've read double digit experts confirming he is wrong. This is basic constitutional law relating to the Commerce Clause. Its a little concerning that more Americans don't understand this elemental concept that governs the relationship between the federal and state governments. 

[Junonia]

18 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

He could do that, but then he would kill all those jobs he's been trying to bring back.  Politically it might motivate the base but anyone that's tied to that industry in any way in Florida would vote against him since its money out of their pockets.  

Freedom is worth the price of  upsetting the employees and other beneficiaries of the cruise industry. I can think of many examples where the decisions of our elected officials put people on the unemployment line. That's nothing new. I think the CDC has overstepped their authority here, dictating who can do business out of Florida's ports and under what circumstances. If you own a rental property and your tenant stopped paying "due to Covid", you will understand what I mean. Here is how the media chose to report on the powers of the CDC 7 years ago, when limited power suited their narrative.https://time.com/3516827/cdc-constitution-quarantine/

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, oteixeira said:

I mean, you don't become an expert in maritime law without actually having a past in it somehow.  I am just saying he probably understands the law more then most others commenting on it.  I trust he knows what he is talking about.    

 

Yep, I understand.  My post wasn't an insult to you at all.  I just wish that the media would report not only what someone is opining, but who that someone is.  It is fair to say that the lead counsel for NCL and a career of 17 years with them, would seem to indicate that such would take the position of NCL and the cruise industry. 

 

Again, all they had to do was provide that tidbit (working for NCL for 17 years) in the piece.

 

Again, NP.  👍

[Junonia]

2 minutes ago, Stallion said:

I'm still waiting for the first maritime "expert" to state that Desantis is correct-I've read double digit experts confirming he is wrong. This is basic constitutional law relating to the Commerce Clause. Its a little concerning that more Americans don't understand this elemental concept that governs the relationship between the federal and state governments. 

Double digits? Impressive. 🙄 Just as the experts came out in force to talk about bats and a wet market as being the absolute, positive source, hands down. When will we stop relying on the so called experts?  What concerns me is that some people want to see the restricted movement of people in America (for a vacation, of all things!) and think that's perfectly fine. I think that is a higher priority than a deep understanding of federal and state governance over ports. 

[cscurlock]

Just now, Junonia said:

Freedom is worth the price of  upsetting the employees and other beneficiaries of the cruise industry. I can think of many examples where the decisions of our elected officials put people on the unemployment line. That's nothing new. I think the CDC has overstepped their authority here, dictating who can do business out of Florida's ports and under what circumstances. If you own a rental property and your tenant stopped paying "due to Covid", you will understand what I mean. Here is how the media chose to report on the powers of the CDC 7 years ago, when limited power suited their narrative.https://time.com/3516827/cdc-constitution-quarantine/

The problem with that theory is price <> votes.  The CDC has every right under the constitution to lay out rules for foreign flagged vessels under the commerce clause. The cruise lines have given the CDC the plans on what they are going to do on their cruises and the CDC has told them what needs to be done for that to happen.  They have multiple options unvaccinated and vaccinated cruises.  People can choose whatever route they want because both will be available.  So, I'm not sure how removing choices for consumers is a good thing.  Again it excites the base, but at the end of the day the consumer could just choose what kind of ship they want to go on and be done with this.  This law is in search of a problem that isn't really there.  Kind of like a lot of what the legislature has passed recently like tripling our car insurance rates when they are the highest in the US already.  That's not a partisan thing its just stupid.

[At Sea At Peace]

10 minutes ago, Stallion said:

I'm still waiting for the first maritime "expert" to state that Desantis is correct-I've read double digit experts confirming he is wrong. This is basic constitutional law relating to the Commerce Clause. Its a little concerning that more Americans don't understand this elemental concept that governs the relationship between the federal and state governments. 

 

I guess my question would be, if it is already universally believed and is in fact 'a fact,' why wasn't or hasn't it, the Executive Order or the Signed Law, been ceremonial 'tossed already?  If it is so 'clear cut, why is it not 'cut?

 

2 minutes ago, Junonia said:

Double digits? Impressive. 🙄 Just as the experts came out in force to talk about bats and a wet market as being the absolute, positive source, hands down. When will we stop relying on the so called experts?  What concerns me is that some people want to see the restricted movement of people in America (for a vacation, of all things!) and think that's perfectly fine. I think that is a higher priority than a deep understanding of federal and state governance over ports. 

 

Yep, wow so much more information is coming out, including now the findings of British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen regarding the veracity of lab claim, that "SARS-Coronavirus-2 has no credible natural ancestor," the interaction with students and professors at US universities and related institutes on "gain of function research."

[richstowe]

1 hour ago, Junonia said:

Looks about as trustworthy as Snopes or a FB fact-checker to me! 😆Gov Desantis could simply ban cruise lines from using Florida ports, just as many other local jurisdictions have. I am a Floridian and love my cruise vacations and ease of access to our beautiful ports, but he has my full support to fight for the freedom of movement of people within our state borders. That's part of his job. 

Hilarious comment after desantis great efforts to make sure the people of Key West would not be able to restrict any usage of their port .

 

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article250934164.html

Edited May 29, 2021 by richstowe

[cscurlock]

8 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

I guess my question would be, if it is already universally believed and is in fact 'a fact,' why wasn't or hasn't it, the Executive Order or the Signed Law, been ceremonial 'tossed already?  If it is so 'clear cut, why is it not 'cut?

 

 

Yep, wow so much more information is coming out, including now the findings of British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen regarding the veracity of lab claim, that "SARS-Coronavirus-2 has no credible natural ancestor," the interaction with students and professors at US universities and related institutes on "gain of function research."

The cruise lines will need to be harmed financially in some way before it can be challenged.   That's usually how these things work.  So on May 26th or thereafter when the fines are handed out then we will see a lawsuit.  The commerce clause is pretty clear the CDC has a right to do what they are doing and this really has nothing to do with the CDC anymore.  The cruise line made the choice. The CDC did not mandate anything.  Celebrity would not be sailing fully vaccinated out of Port Everglades unless their lawyers told them there is 0 risk doing it.  Its my opinion that this rule will only apply to Florida citizens anyways.  If vaccination verification happens outside Florida then their power stops at the state line.

Edited May 29, 2021 by cscurlock

[Stallion]

The reason that "the Executive Order or the Signed Law, haven't been been ceremonial 'tossed already?" is that no cruises have sailed and I believe the law is not effective until July 1-right? Therefore its arguably not yet a litigible issue and would constitute an advisory opinion which courts are prohibited from issuing. Once a passenger is required to show a vaccination card--and an alleged violation of an effective Florida law occurs OR a ship actually sails from Florida violating an effective Florida law then an actual litigible case arises. Likely to see both requests for declaratory relief and requests for injunctive relief similiar to the lawsuit concerning the CDC with involves a separate issue

Edited May 29, 2021 by Stallion

[cscurlock]

9 minutes ago, richstowe said:

Hilarious comment after desantis great efforts to make sure the people of Key West would not be able to restrict any usage of their port .

 

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article250934164.html

Again overriding the will of the voters in local matters can be negative when you are heading into an election cycle.  We will see.

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, Sthrngary said:

Gov. DeSantis is no protecting anyone's freedoms.  He is playing to his base.  What he did was political posturing.  He wants to enter the 2024 presidential race.  All that had to happen was the cruise line have fully vaccinated cruise for a few months.  That is it.  Then it could be open for anyone.  But no, lets pick a fight and make it about freedom.  Crazy.  

I know this opinion will not be popular in many circles so let me end with this.  There is always a safe middle ground.  But we have to look at working with each other.  Talking to each other and not take a super hard stand.  We are Americans for goodness sake. 

Well said, and agree whole heartedly.  They keep overlooking one point (as did the previous administration), that base they play to is shrinking.  It will continue to shrink, to the point where they are relegated to the fringes.  If Desantis has higher aspirations, this stunt will come back to haunt him.  Plus, playing to the people who spend most of their time yelling at the sky, well, by definition, that's a shrinking demographic.

 

As far as yelling freedom, where has it ever been said that keeping people safe in a pandemic is not keeping them free?  Anyone in FL is free to do whatever they want, as long as it's legal.  Understand, if you want to cruise, you're free to do so as long as you pay the price AND you do not present a risk to yourself, or those around you.

 

To cruise, IF you are one of the 5% they're planning to allow as the unvaccinated to board on those cruise lines that are hitting the seas first, you'll have to wear a mask most everywhere (including sitting at the cruise restaurants, bars, entertainment venues and public spaces).  And, you'll be required to stay 6 feet away from other passengers.  

 

If you don't want to do that, you get vaccinated to protect those around you as well as yourself.

 

So, your freedom is there, if you want it.

Edited May 29, 2021 by graphicguy

[graphicguy]

52 minutes ago, Stallion said:

The reason that "the Executive Order or the Signed Law, haven't been been ceremonial 'tossed already?" is that no cruises have sailed and I believe the law is not effective until July 1-right? Therefore its arguably not yet a litigible issue and would constitute an advisory opinion which courts are prohibited from issuing. Once a passenger is required to show a vaccination card--and an alleged violation of an effective Florida law occurs OR a ship actually sails from Florida violating an effective Florida law then an actual litigible case arises. Likely to see both requests for declaratory relief and requests for injunctive relief similiar to the lawsuit concerning the CDC with involves a separate issue

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but couldn't Celebrity show "harm" to them or their crew/passengers if that "law" were enforced?  And, wouldn't the state have to show how they are harmed if any cruise line wanted to sail with vaccinated passengers?

Edited May 29, 2021 by graphicguy

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but couldn't Celebrity show "harm" to them or their crew/passengers if that "law" were enforced?  And, wouldn't the state have to show how they are harmed if any cruise line wanted to sail with vaccinated passengers?

$5000 per person fine is harm.  The state is not bringing the lawsuit so the burden of proof is on the cruise line to prove they have been harmed.

[graphicguy]

1 minute ago, cscurlock said:

$5000 per person fine is harm.  The state is not bringing the lawsuit so the burden of proof is on the cruise line to prove they have been harmed.

$5,000 is a pretty big harm to the cruise industry, and it's also not allowing the cruise lines to keep their passengers as safe as they could.

 

I can just see the first lawsuit filed by someone who contracted COVID on the cruise because the ship didn't do enough to keep them safe.

[Stallion]

5 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but couldn't Celebrity show "harm" to them or their crew/passengers if that "law" were enforced?  And, wouldn't the state have to show how they are harmed if any cruise line wanted to sail with vaccinated passengers?

Yes 

When is Celebrity requiring passengers to prove vaccination? At the port or by downloading a vaccination card prior to the cruise? If the law was currently in effect, Celebrity could, but isn't required to, file for declaratory relief that the law was unconstitutional under the commerce clause etc. Instead, Celebrity could just proceed with the cruise  and let Florida impose a fine or sue Celebrity to block the cruise (which might involve injunctive relief). Again, this is complicated by the effective date of the Florida law and the timing of the cruise

[cscurlock]

3 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

$5,000 is a pretty big harm to the cruise industry, and it's also not allowing the cruise lines to keep their passengers as safe as they could.

 

I can just see the first lawsuit filed by someone who contracted COVID on the cruise because the ship didn't do enough to keep them safe.

It all comes down to does the state of Florida have the right to financially impact a foreign owned cruise line based on the cruise lines business requirements.  According the the constitution they do not have that right. That power is restricted to the Congress of the United States.

[harkinmr]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:49 AM, Jamesatgsu said:

This is the opposite of options. This is big government controlling private companies. 

Ironic, isn’t it.  A politician that has fully supported private enterprise rights and called for limited government interference all of a sudden puts himself squarely opposite that position.  SMH. 

[cscurlock]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Ironic, isn’t it.  A politician that has fully supported private enterprise rights and called for limited government interference all of a sudden puts himself squarely opposite that position.  SMH. 

You can tell we are in the extreme when the citizens of key west passed a rule that wouldn't allow cruise ships to dock anymore and the person who owned the port gave a million dollars to Desantis and the miraculously came up with a law taking away all local authority power over ports which has been that way since Florida was founded.  

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, Stallion said:

I'm still waiting for the first maritime "expert" to state that Desantis is correct-I've read double digit experts confirming he is wrong. This is basic constitutional law relating to the Commerce Clause. Its a little concerning that more Americans don't understand this elemental concept that governs the relationship between the federal and state governments. 

Civics 101 missing in education for so many. Social media influence and a lack of intellectual curiosity.  The incessant need for an echo chamber. Group think.  They are all possibilities.  

[harkinmr]

18 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

You can tell we are in the extreme when the citizens of key west passed a rule that wouldn't allow cruise ships to dock anymore and the person who owned the port gave a million dollars to Desantis and the miraculously came up with a law taking away all local authority power over ports which has been that way since Florida was founded.  

Bingo!

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, Stallion said:

Yes 

When is Celebrity requiring passengers to prove vaccination? At the port or by downloading a vaccination card prior to the cruise? If the law was currently in effect, Celebrity could, but isn't required to, file for declaratory relief that the law was unconstitutional under the commerce clause etc. Instead, Celebrity could just proceed with the cruise  and let Florida impose a fine or sue Celebrity to block the cruise (which might involve injunctive relief). Again, this is complicated by the effective date of the Florida law and the timing of the cruise

Thanks.  I'm figuring Desantis can not stop digital vaccine proof (like a digital copy of the CDC Covid vaccine or certified digital proof of vaccines).  So, I'm figuring that will be required to check in, just like your passport number.  At that point, whatever he says is a moot point.

 

Again, it would be political and economic suicide for him to keep the ships from sailing.

[Junonia]

2 hours ago, richstowe said:

Hilarious comment after desantis great efforts to make sure the people of Key West would not be able to restrict any usage of their port .

 

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article250934164.html

One thing has nothing to do with the other. The cruise lines AND developers (and their friends on the city council) ruined Key West, which used to be a charming, offbeat special place. If DeSantis had a hand in that (you are citing the propaganda media after all), that is wrong. But it has no bearing on the argument at hand.