DeSantis is OK with NCL leaving Florida

[cscurlock]

41 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Correct. 

 

As the member stated, the CDC does not make laws.

 

Certifying that as an opinion is an opinion.

 

The CDC tool is regulation.

 

Based on performance, in their 'regulatory capacity,' it's time to consider a major overhaul of the CDC.

 

1.  The CDC is the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.  They failed miserably in Prevention.  No larger mistake was made then the 2-months it took for the CDC requiring an independent test for Covid 19 after it had been given a highly effective test by WHO.

 

2.  The CDC then failed at Disease Control.  Again, inexplicable guidance on the virus, totally manipulated in concert with the media and federal and state political factions.  Credibility was lost and it will likely impact compliance going forward; i.e., vaccinations (with lack of support for vaccinating pre-infected and the young (especially those < 19 years of age, 300 total deaths) and with regard to future potential health issues.

 

Although we are vaccinated, support both restricted vaccinated only cruises (as an option as a consumer) and unvaccinated cruises (same option), and were ardent compliant mask and actual isolationists (talk about social distancing) during the peak of the pandemic until fully vaccinated, the CDC is applying specific restrictions on cruise ships than now are vested in guidelines for literally almost everything else.

 

The basis?  If MLB, NHL, NBA, PGA stadiums and concerts with people together for 3-4 hours, and the CDC guideline for potential for transmission is 15 minutes (continuous or in intervals that make up 15 minutes in a 24 hour period) then it is simply unique to look the other way for such but not for cruise ships.

 

 

All those stadiums, concert halls, amusement parks, hotels etc. are American Corporations pay American taxes while the cruise lines do not as foreign entities.  That's the big difference right there.  

[At Sea At Peace]

28 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

All those stadiums, concert halls, amusement parks, hotels etc. are American Corporations pay American taxes while the cruise lines do not as foreign entities.  That's the big difference right there.  

 

So, the virus knows and acts accordingly based on whether or not the activity is American owned and pays American taxes?  Really?  The CDC guidelines, including the CSO and updated guidelines, mention this as a factor for disease control and prevention?  Really?

[richstowe]

9 hours ago, graphicguy said:

Again, non-vaccinated passengers can cruise.  They have to wait for the test cruises to be completed.  And, they’ll need to wear a mask and socially distance for a while.  

Or they will wait long enough until enough of everyone else has been vaccinated so that covid cases are greatly reduced and it's no longer mandatory. No idea when that will be .

I believe cruise ships are held to a unfair standard of health . Whether it's covid or noro or sexual assault , rates well bellow shore numbers but are always front page news . The industry can't risk even a couple of on-board covid cases . Unfair or not , in order to resume normal , mandatory vaccinations must be done for now . 

[cscurlock]

Just now, At Sea At Peace said:

 

So, the virus knows and acts accordingly based on whether or not the activity is American owned and pays American taxes?  Really?  The CDC guidelines, including the CSO and updated guidelines, mention this as a factor for disease control and prevention?  Really?

No but the money involved in an outbreak surely does unless you have agreements with the cruise lines that they cover the costs.  That's what happened last year. Considerable expense was paid by the American taxpayer for that last year.  I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's ruined vacation while I'm not even on the ship.   So in order to make sure that doesn't happen rules and agreements with the Federal Government need to be put in place so American taxpayers are not on the hook paying for foreign companies problems.  The cruise lines have the right to relocate to the US and pay taxes here and use our employment rules and regulations and then this lawsuit in court would be moot because the state of Florida could dictate rules since its a Florida business at that point.  Until then under the power of the US constitution, Congress can dictate the rules.

 

[KennyFla]

19 minutes ago, richstowe said:

Or they will wait long enough until enough of everyone else has been vaccinated so that covid cases are greatly reduced and it's no longer mandatory. No idea when that will be .

 

Already happening here.  Based on the numbers Florida may be close to the long sought after herd immunity.

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, cscurlock said:

No but the money involved in an outbreak surely does unless you have agreements with the cruise lines that they cover the costs.  That's what happened last year. Considerable expense was paid by the American taxpayer for that last year.  I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's ruined vacation while I'm not even on the ship.   So in order to make sure that doesn't happen rules and agreements with the Federal Government need to be put in place so American taxpayers are not on the hook paying for foreign companies problems.  The cruise lines have the right to relocate to the US and pay taxes here and use our employment rules and regulations and then this lawsuit in court would be moot because the state of Florida could dictate rules since its a Florida business at that point.  Until then under the power of the US constitution, Congress can dictate the rules.

 

 

Is there one single other requirement of any other foreign corporation or industry that is currently required to have agreements and with who.whom to cover the potential costs incurred by American taxpayers?

 

Can you link such considerable expenses (not a politicians quote, rather a reputable source)?

 

Also, can you compare to the cost of Covid 19 on the USA in total dollars?  There are estimates of $16 Trillion that I am aware of.

 

I guess we can then determine the relative financial burden that the cruise lines were to the USA proportionately and take a look?

[cscurlock]

34 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Is there one single other requirement of any other foreign corporation or industry that is currently required to have agreements and with who.whom to cover the potential costs incurred by American taxpayers?

 

Can you link such considerable expenses (not a politicians quote, rather a reputable source)?

 

Also, can you compare to the cost of Covid 19 on the USA in total dollars?  There are estimates of $16 Trillion that I am aware of.

 

I guess we can then determine the relative financial burden that the cruise lines were to the USA proportionately and take a look?

The cost of whatever trillion was for American taxpayers for Americans it wasn't paid to foreign companies who don't pay taxes unless congress authorizes it under their purse power and laws made under the Constitution.  If its any burden to the taxpayer and the company does not pay American taxes then its up to the foreign company to pay for the necessary protocols to prevent whatever happened last year. The only way it would be ok is if congress passed a constitutional amendment saying foreign companies can rake American taxpayers over the coals and not pay American taxes.  Good luck getting elected under that platform.  I will say this, if Florida will cover all these costs with Florida taxpayer money then yeah sure they can offer that in their mediation.  Otherwise the federal taxpayer should not have to float that bill.

 

I read several sites before but here is one and the quote.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32715/the-cruise-industry-absolutely-does-not-deserve-a-bailout

 

"The Diamond Princess cruise ship had to be quarantined at a Japanese port after early warnings about a coronavirus outbreak within fell on deaf ears. Nearly 2,000 more passengers on another ship had to be quarantined on U.S. military bases over another infection. And yet major cruise lines only halted their new voyages in mid-March. And even pre-coronavirus, considerable amounts of state and federal resources have had to be spent dealing with outbreaks on pleasure ships."

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by cscurlock

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, cscurlock said:

The cost of whatever trillion was for American taxpayers for Americans it wasn't paid to foreign companies who don't pay taxes unless congress authorizes it under their purse power and laws made under the Constitution.  If its any burden to the taxpayer and the company does not pay American taxes then its up to the foreign company to pay for the necessary protocols to prevent whatever happened last year. The only way it would be ok is if congress passed a constitutional amendment saying foreign companies can rake American taxpayers over the coals and not pay American taxes.  Good luck getting elected under that platform.  I will say this, if Florida will cover all these costs with Florida taxpayer money then yeah sure they can offer that in their mediation.  Otherwise the federal taxpayer should not have to float that bill.

 

The question was ~

 

Is there one single other requirement of any other foreign corporation or industry that is currently required to have agreements and with who.whom to cover the potential costs incurred by American taxpayers?

 

Accepted, there are none.

 

That answer really doesn't make any sense and was looking for one single other foreign entity or industry that has to make such pre-activity provisions under agreements.

 

Quote

 

I read several sites before but here is one and the quote.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32715/the-cruise-industry-absolutely-does-not-deserve-a-bailout

 

Well, I never mentioned the bailout.  The cruise lines essentially got nothing.  It was even reported that they didn't even ask for such.  Again, if they didn't get bailed out how could that be a cost that Americans, or Florida as was inserted, had to  foot?  

 

By the way, what do you think happens to the companies and employees that are on the receiving end of the $9 Billion 'direct' economic impact on Florida?

 

Yep, they pay taxes.  Makes you go HMMMMMM.

 

Quote

"The Diamond Princess cruise ship had to be quarantined at a Japanese port after early warnings about a coronavirus outbreak within fell on deaf ears. Nearly 2,000 more passengers on another ship had to be quarantined on U.S. military bases over another infection. And yet major cruise lines only halted their new voyages in mid-March. And even pre-coronavirus, considerable amounts of state and federal resources have had to be spent dealing with outbreaks on pleasure ships."

 

 

 

"Warnings about a coronavirus outbreak fell on deaf ears?"  Yep, sure did.  Heck, no one, sans certain Wuhan occupants, had no idea what hit.  I believe our good Dr. was even wagging the dog at the time or even later March 8, 2020 back home with his famous 'masks are not necessary guidance.

 

The US State Department "repatriated" by evacuation over 98,000 Americans per their website.

 

There were only 400 Americans onboard the Diamond Princess and it was off the coast or or ported in Japan.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/16/asia/coronavirus-outbreak-diamond-cruise-us-evacuation-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Now, if there is a genuine concern about transmission of the virus and the number of people coming into the USA at a cost to American taxpayers, it would appear such virtuous aspirations would be better 'spent' on the nearly 175,000 a month now entering that are recorded without even virus tests, never mind the proffered vaccine passports for those Americans here?

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by At Sea At Peace

[AdoraBelle]

Meanwhile:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/05/30/florida-governor-ron-desantis-cruise-line-exemption-vaccine-passport-ban/?sh=62a45f395ed5

 

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis Is Crafting An Exemption For Cruise Lines To His ‘Vaccine Passport’ Ban

 

I guess he remembered he likes money.

Edited May 30, 2021 by AdoraBelle

[cscurlock]

1 hour ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

The question was ~

 

Is there one single other requirement of any other foreign corporation or industry that is currently required to have agreements and with who.whom to cover the potential costs incurred by American taxpayers?

 

Accepted, there are none.

 

That answer really doesn't make any sense and was looking for one single other foreign entity or industry that has to make such pre-activity provisions under agreements.

 

 

Well, I never mentioned the bailout.  The cruise lines essentially got nothing.  It was even reported that they didn't even ask for such.  Again, if they didn't get bailed out how could that be a cost that Americans, or Florida as was inserted, had to  foot?  

 

By the way, what do you think happens to the companies and employees that are on the receiving end of the $9 Billion 'direct' economic impact on Florida?

 

Yep, they pay taxes.  Makes you go HMMMMMM.

 

 

"Warnings about a coronavirus outbreak fell on deaf ears?"  Yep, sure did.  Heck, no one, sans certain Wuhan occupants, had no idea what hit.  I believe our good Dr. was even wagging the dog at the time or even later March 8, 2020 back home with his famous 'masks are not necessary guidance.

 

The US State Department "repatriated" by evacuation over 98,000 Americans per their website.

 

There were only 400 Americans onboard the Diamond Princess and it was off the coast or or ported in Japan.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/16/asia/coronavirus-outbreak-diamond-cruise-us-evacuation-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Now, if there is a genuine concern about transmission of the virus and the number of people coming into the USA at a cost to American taxpayers, it would appear such virtuous aspirations would be better 'spent' on the nearly 175,000 a month now entering that are recorded without even virus tests, never mind the proffered vaccine passports for those Americans here?

 

Cruise lines submit a plan with what they want to do and the CDC tells them the restrictions based on that plan.  They didn't want to give blanket rules because certain cruise lines might want to do things differently.  The cruise lines or at least a lot of them Carnival, RCCL Celebrity have agreed to the rules.  NCL is working on a long term port agreement out of Galveston which will probably have their newest ship.  There are ships are sailing both unvaccinated and vaccinated so everyone wins here.  So again where is the problem.  The extreme position that it should be one way or the other in my opinion is wrong.  Options for American consumers are good and both are being provided.

 

Every foreign flagged vessel / company has to deal with CDC rules when there is an outbreak on a ship if they use an US port.  Those rules for non passenger ships are blanket rules as far as I can tell.

  

Maybe the airlines because they won't let you get on a plane in Europe bound for the US without a negative Covid test.  I'll have to look at that because technically it would be weird if they flew into the US and were turned away.  The airline rules state you will be denied boarding in Europe when bound for the US.  

 

If those businesses that take that 9 billion money in want to float the cruise ships burden of cost regarding the rules agreed to then I think most non Floridians would have no problem with that.  As I said Florida could discuss this in mediation. 49 other states have nothing to do with cruise lines sailing out of Florida that 9 billion dollars in revenue and their federal dollars should not be involved.   

 

The other princess ship that had issues in California had the passengers quarantined on military bases.  That's just one example and yes I know the article was about bailing the industry I was just specifying that one paragraph as an example.  As I said there are other sources.  Federal dollars were used that should have been paid by the cruise lines and not the taxpayers.  

 

I am not here to go back and forth on if I think the mask guidance is fair or any of those types of things.  Opinionated discussions like that don't really go anywhere because they are opinions.  I think the rule that vaccinated people need to wear mask is stupid on an unvaccinated ship but without seeing what the CDC is seeing its hard for me to have anything other than an opinion.  I will however discuss who is responsible paying the bill all day long. 

 

 

[cscurlock]

Looks like an exemption is being drafted for vaccinated cruising.

 

In the clip, the Celebrity Cruises executive is heard outlining how DeSantis is working with the largest cruise lines — Carnival, Royal Caribbean and Norwegian Cruise Line — to find a workaround. When the governor came out with his prohibition against vaccine verifications, “he was talking about restaurants, bars, hotels, Disney, places that weren’t cruise ships — because at the time, cruise ships weren’t open yet,” explained Ritzenthaler. “And we’re ironing out a statement that will articulate how cruising will be different than [being] in the state.”

Apparently, the revised messaging would assert that the cruise terminal will be in Florida, while “as soon as you pass through and step on the ship, you’re no longer considered to be local. You’re now in international waters,” said Ritzenthaler, who noted that DeSantis will still be able to say “that people in Florida will not have to show vaccination proof to go to bars

[AdoraBelle]

1 minute ago, cscurlock said:

Looks like an exemption is being drafted for vaccinated cruising.

 

In the clip, the Celebrity Cruises executive is heard outlining how DeSantis is working with the largest cruise lines — Carnival, Royal Caribbean and Norwegian Cruise Line — to find a workaround. When the governor came out with his prohibition against vaccine verifications, “he was talking about restaurants, bars, hotels, Disney, places that weren’t cruise ships — because at the time, cruise ships weren’t open yet,” explained Ritzenthaler. “And we’re ironing out a statement that will articulate how cruising will be different than [being] in the state.”

Apparently, the revised messaging would assert that the cruise terminal will be in Florida, while “as soon as you pass through and step on the ship, you’re no longer considered to be local. You’re now in international waters,” said Ritzenthaler, who noted that DeSantis will still be able to say “that people in Florida will not have to show vaccination proof to go to bars

Yeah, I linked it two posts up. 🙂

I assume people are going to keep bickering here though. 🙂

[cscurlock]

4 minutes ago, AdoraBelle said:

Yeah, I linked it two posts up. 🙂

I assume people are going to keep bickering here though. 🙂

Everyone should be happy.  Both types of cruises are available.  I am not sure why he was playing tough guy with the cruise industry to begin with.  Probably that damn pesky commerce clause made him change tunes.  😀

[richstowe]

54 minutes ago, AdoraBelle said:

Meanwhile:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/05/30/florida-governor-ron-desantis-cruise-line-exemption-vaccine-passport-ban/?sh=62a45f395ed5

 

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis Is Crafting An Exemption For Cruise Lines To His ‘Vaccine Passport’ Ban

 

I guess he remembered he likes money.

Thank you for the link .

 

Lunacy from desantis.  His Florida Surgeon General stated “To be clear, nothing in state law stands in the way of cruise ship operations.” while the governor proudly enacted a law with potential fines of $5,000 per passenger. “We’ve been very clear, the law is clear in Florida,” Taryn Fenske, a spokesperson for the governor, told reporters on Thursday. “You can’t mandate vaccine passports. We are interested to see how [the CDC] works with them so that they don’t get these exorbitant fines."

 

Unintentionally hilarious . You threaten large fines for a bill you put it then get one minion to insist nothing stands in the way of cruising while another stooge insists that it's the CDC's responsibility to help the industry avoid these fines .

Goodness gracious .

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by richstowe

[AdoraBelle]

3 minutes ago, richstowe said:

Unintentionally hilarious . You threaten large fines for a bill you put it then get one minion to insist nothing stands in the way of cruising while another stooge insists that it's the CDC's responsibility to help the industry avoid these fines .

Goodness gracious .

Trying to walk the thinnest of lines between nailing down the anti-vax vote and, you know, actually supporting businesses and tourism.

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, richstowe said:

Thank you for the link .

 

Lunacy from desantis's. His Florida Surgeon General stated “To be clear, nothing in state law stands in the way of cruise ship operations.” while the governor proudly enacted a law with potential fines of $5,000 per passenger. “We’ve been very clear, the law is clear in Florida,” Taryn Fenske, a spokesperson for the governor, told reporters on Thursday. “You can’t mandate vaccine passports. We are interested to see how [the CDC] works with them so that they don’t get these exorbitant fines."

 

Unintentionally hilarious . You threaten large fines for a bill you put it then get one minion to insist nothing stands in the way of cruising while another stooge insists that it's the CDC's responsibility to help the industry avoid these fines .

Goodness gracious .

 

 

I hope the lawyer who was advising him on this is the same one in mediation because both are commerce clause issues.  That lawsuit will go nowhere like this vaccine passport law against cruise lines.   I think he needs to check his pocket constitution and read up on the separation of powers.

[harkinmr]

27 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

Everyone should be happy.  Both types of cruises are available.  I am not sure why he was playing tough guy with the cruise industry to begin with.  Probably that damn pesky commerce clause made him change tunes.  😀

Yep. The law always comes back to bite one in the a**.

“Now DeSantis finds himself in a pickle of his own making. “Because of the way the vaccine passport conversation was introduced, it quickly became politicized,” says Brian Castrucci, the president and CEO of the de Beaumont Foundation, a private philanthropy that builds community partnerships for public health policy. “The problem for DeSantis is that he’s in a political game of chicken. And the cruise lines are just victims of the politicization of a public health crisis.”

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/05/30/florida-governor-ron-desantis-cruise-line-exemption-vaccine-passport-ban/?sh=362799ba5ed5

 

 

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, cscurlock said:

Cruise lines submit a plan with what they want to do and the CDC tells them the restrictions based on that plan.  They didn't want to give blanket rules because certain cruise lines might want to do things differently.  The cruise lines or at least a lot of them Carnival, RCCL Celebrity have agreed to the rules.  NCL is working on a long term port agreement out of Galveston which will probably have their newest ship.  There are ships are sailing both unvaccinated and vaccinated so everyone wins here.  So again where is the problem.  The extreme position that it should be one way or the other in my opinion is wrong.  Options for American consumers are good and both are being provided.

 

Every foreign flagged vessel / company has to deal with CDC rules when there is an outbreak on a ship if they use an US port.  Those rules for non passenger ships are blanket rules as far as I can tell.

  

Maybe the airlines because they won't let you get on a plane in Europe bound for the US without a negative Covid test.  I'll have to look at that because technically it would be weird if they flew into the US and were turned away.  The airline rules state you will be denied boarding in Europe when bound for the US.  

 

If those businesses that take that 9 billion money in want to float the cruise ships burden of cost regarding the rules agreed to then I think most non Floridians would have no problem with that.  As I said Florida could discuss this in mediation. 49 other states have nothing to do with cruise lines sailing out of Florida that 9 billion dollars in revenue and their federal dollars should not be involved.   

 

The other princess ship that had issues in California had the passengers quarantined on military bases.  That's just one example and yes I know the article was about bailing the industry I was just specifying that one paragraph as an example.  As I said there are other sources.  Federal dollars were used that should have been paid by the cruise lines and not the taxpayers.  

 

I am not here to go back and forth on if I think the mask guidance is fair or any of those types of things.  Opinionated discussions like that don't really go anywhere because they are opinions.  I think the rule that vaccinated people need to wear mask is stupid on an unvaccinated ship but without seeing what the CDC is seeing its hard for me to have anything other than an opinion.  I will however discuss who is responsible paying the bill all day long. 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with what was at issue (for example, what other industry has to make pre-provisions to plan to even operate), or the total inconsistency of the CDC impact on MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, Concerts exposure guidance of 15 minutes per day, and certainly doesn't produce one iota of the 'alleged severe financial hardship and burden' to the US American taxpayers from the costs of evacuation of the 400 from one Princess ship that was in Japan and the other that was routed to CA and the passengers quarantined.

 

And, on par, zero reply to the real risks of the virus and real costs to the US American taxpayers that the 'experts' and 'scientists' totally ignore by almost 175,000 a month.  Why does that not surprise?

 

[MichiganBound]

1 hour ago, AdoraBelle said:

Meanwhile:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/05/30/florida-governor-ron-desantis-cruise-line-exemption-vaccine-passport-ban/?sh=62a45f395ed5

 

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis Is Crafting An Exemption For Cruise Lines To His ‘Vaccine Passport’ Ban

 

I guess he remembered he likes money.

And the DeSantis backtracking begins.  No surprise with that.  Lots of folks on this thread will be eating crow.  LOL.