Judge: Florida and CDC Still At An Impass

[Lee Cruiser]

Still no agreement reached. I'm guessing that the judge was hoping for some movement before he has to make a ruling.

 

https://www.wtsp.com/amp/article/news/regional/florida/flroida-cruise-cdc-lawsuit/67-6b8bda57-7b38-49db-8770-85a5b430a6b5?__twitter_impression=true

[BlerkOne]

Looks like the judge is at least qualified and could be nearing retirement anyway. He still doesn't seem to want to take the blame.

 

So if the CDC lawyers were close to competent, Florida should lose.

 

[firefly333]

Lol I could have told the judge neither side was giving in. 

[MrMarc]

Absolutely no question the Judge would much rather have had the parties settle so he would not have to make this decision.  I think Judges want to make important decisions, but they are aware of the possible wide reaching effects, which is why they try to craft narrow decisions in cases like this.  They also want to be on solid legal grounds, because they know it will be appealed, however they decide.  

[BlerkOne]

9 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

Absolutely no question the Judge would much rather have had the parties settle so he would not have to make this decision.  I think Judges want to make important decisions, but they are aware of the possible wide reaching effects, which is why they try to craft narrow decisions in cases like this.  They also want to be on solid legal grounds, because they know it will be appealed, however they decide.  

If Florida appeals, it will only drive up to cost to the Florida tax payers.

[MrMarc]

1 minute ago, BlerkOne said:

If Florida appeals, it will only drive up to cost to the Florida tax payers.

Unfortunately, in a case like this: "It's the principle."  In leglese  that translates to the attorneys are going to make a lot of money.

[MrMarc]

Oops, I forget which thread I was posting in.  I hate it when that happens.

Edited June 11, 2021 by MrMarc
wrong thread

[Lee Cruiser]

48 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

If Florida appeals, it will only drive up to cost to the Florida tax payers.

That's assuming they lose.  It could end up being a decision somewhere in the middle, like the consensus he was trying to get them to reach.

[BlerkOne]

5 minutes ago, Lee Cruiser said:

That's assuming they lose.  It could end up being a decision somewhere in the middle, like the consensus he was trying to get them to reach.

Or if the CDC appeals. The CDC has already relaxed their restrictions. I can't imagine Florida doing anything except refusing to compromise.

[TNcruising02]

Yesterday, I read an article that stated that Florida argued that the 95% vaccinated number is too high and gave an example of the president's goal of 70% vaccinated in the US.  They also felt like the small infection number allowed was too low.

[MrMarc]

I don't think a compromise will work, because that would reduce the CDC's authority to work, and I do not think they could accept that.

[TNcruising02]

Just now, MrMarc said:

I don't think a compromise will work, because that would reduce the CDC's authority to work, and I do not think they could accept that.

It's possible that the CDC will lower the 95% to 85% and increase the infection rate allowed from 1.5 to 3, just as examples.  They could also exclude children from the 5%.  There is still room for a compromise, but it appears that the CDC will not budge.

[Lee Cruiser]

Just now, TNcruising02 said:

There is still room for a compromise, but it appears that the CDC will not budge.

It certainly appears that it is not just Florida that is not willing to compromise.

[BlerkOne]

The CDC has already compromised and relaxed requirements. Nobody disputes the CDC has the authority to regulate cruise lines. I suspect Florida won't settle for anything less than removal of the CSO, which either won't happen, or will be quickly replaced if it is.

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

It feels like the CDC hired the cheapest lawyers possible is they can’t overcome this case

[chengkp75]

43 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Yesterday, I read an article that stated that Florida argued that the 95% vaccinated number is too high and gave an example of the president's goal of 70% vaccinated in the US.  They also felt like the small infection number allowed was too low.

The CDC is not mandating 95% vaccination.  That is one option.

[Lee Cruiser]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC is not mandating 95% vaccination.  That is one option.

The only option that doesn't cost the cruise lines millions of dollars in test cruises for each individual ship and onboard restrictions that no cruiser would like to cruise with.  So basically, it is the only real option, which is Florida's point.

[TNcruising02]

33 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC is not mandating 95% vaccination.  That is one option.

In order to open up without jumping through hoops, yes.  But the Florida lawsuit wants cruises to open up to everyone.  The CDC is stating that they can only cruise with 95% or more vaccinated, otherwise they need to jump through hoops and have strict mask mandates when passengers are on the ships, except when eating and drinking or in the water.

Edited June 12, 2021 by TNcruising02

[Radiioman46]

Remember it is not just Florida because the lawsuit was joined by Texas and Alaska. The CDC has no business regulating cruise lines. They should just recommend guidelines, and they should just drop the CSO.

 

Remember too, that until the lawsuit was filed the CDC was playing extremely hard ball, and not cooperating with the cruise lines at all. They were totally ignoring them.  

[TNcruising02]

Just now, Radiioman46 said:

Remember it is not just Florida because the lawsuit was joined by Texas and Alaska. The CDC has no business regulating cruise lines. They should just recommend guidelines, and they should just drop the CSO.

 

Remember too, that until the lawsuit was filed the CDC was playing extremely hard ball, and not cooperating with the cruise lines at all. They were totally ignoring them.  

Exactly.  All the while people were permitted to fly without covid tests or vaccines.  People can go to hotels, restaurants, amusement parks, bars, parks, pools, and other places and not have to prove they have been vaccinated.  The cruise lines were unfairly targeted because of irrational fears.  They weren't permitted to even try to open safely.  Florida, Texas, and Alaska realized that it was unfair, hence the lawsuit.

Anyways it is what it is. The CDC at first even wanted vaccinated people to wear masks everywhere on a cruise ship.  They only recently changed it.  They are unreasonable and controlling.  If not for the lawsuit, who knows when the CDC would have felt like allowing cruising to open up.

[songbird1329]

Technically Texas and Alaska are not officially part of the lawsuit.  They sought permission to intervene, the CDC opposed it, and the judge has not yet ruled on the request to intervene.

 

The judge does not have the authority craft a solution here.  He can either grant a preliminary injunction which will prevent the CDC from enforcing the CSO, or he can deny Florida’s request.  
 

But given the extensive briefing and the very thorough oral argument, when the judge makes his ruling, there will be a very long judicial opinion describing his reasons for ruling as he did.

 

While I didn’t see the transcripts of oral argument, I read most of the briefs.  I think He’s going to rule against Florida, then deny the motions to intervene as moot.

 

 

 

[IntrepidFromDC]

17 hours ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

It feels like the CDC hired the cheapest lawyers possible is they can’t overcome this case

According to my retired neighbor, who was a government lawyer for many years, government lawyers are less "hungry" (read aggressive/motivated) and are paid less than private practice in general.  

[jsglow]

17 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

Technically Texas and Alaska are not officially part of the lawsuit.  They sought permission to intervene, the CDC opposed it, and the judge has not yet ruled on the request to intervene.

 

The judge does not have the authority craft a solution here.  He can either grant a preliminary injunction which will prevent the CDC from enforcing the CSO, or he can deny Florida’s request.  
 

But given the extensive briefing and the very thorough oral argument, when the judge makes his ruling, there will be a very long judicial opinion describing his reasons for ruling as he did.

 

While I didn’t see the transcripts of oral argument, I read most of the briefs.  I think He’s going to rule against Florida, then deny the motions to intervene as moot.

 

 

 

Exactly.  The judge is hoping that the two sides come to a mutually acceptable agreement.  His ability to craft something himself is nil.  I believe songbird is correct and that the judge will ultimately deny Florida's request.  It's at that point I believe when a Florida will agree to a workaround for the cruise lines.

[BlerkOne]

16 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Anyways it is what it is. The CDC at first even wanted vaccinated people to wear masks everywhere on a cruise ship.  They only recently changed it.  They are unreasonable and controlling.  If not for the lawsuit, who knows when the CDC would have felt like allowing cruising to open up.

The CDC is data driven, not wild west, russian roulette, damn the torpedoes. Their job is to keep us safe.

[BlerkOne]

Just now, jsglow said:

Exactly.  The judge is hoping that the two sides come to a mutually acceptable agreement.  His ability to craft something himself is nil.  I believe songbird is correct and that the judge will ultimately deny Florida's request.  It's at that point I believe when a Florida will agree to a workaround for the cruise lines.

The mediation is over. The judge declared it so.