Seriously - Time for Carnival to get into the Great Lakes market

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, KmomChicago said:

 

I understand this view - however I truly think the success of the small lines shows there is an interest in our Great Lakes. National Geographic did a great article on them this past year. I think they have been an overlooked treasure for a long time. Someone will eventually take advantage of this.

I would think the American Cruise Line would be a great fit for this.  Really does not fit the Carnival model though.  They have mmore than enough fish to fry for the next couple of years. 

[KmomChicago]

4 minutes ago, jerrya72 said:

I live close to Travers City, MI which is a tourist town, we do get some cruise ships that stop here.  I checked into one but for the price I could do a 7 day Carnival cruise with cheers and airfare included. I would do a great lakes cruise if it was more affordable. 

 

I'm sure they can't get it as cheap as the Caribbean but I agree the existing choices which run in the neighborhood of 4 thousand plus per person, are pricing out a lot of potential passengers. There has to be a way a mass-market operators could do it for half that or less.  Something to wipe out the airfare cost and add convenience to make the math work for a larger segment.

[KmomChicago]

14 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I would think the American Cruise Line would be a great fit for this.  Really does not fit the Carnival model though.  They have mmore than enough fish to fry for the next couple of years. 

 

Right, Jimbo. There's the rub. What I want is an experience and price point something in the area of Carnival. I get that this is so different than their usual gig as to make it a hard sell at best.

 

I think my vision is too far from American as well, though, in the other direction. I want something family oriented, with rugrats all over the place. I realize it won't be Caribbean cheap, but I want it a lot more affordable than American Cruise Line.  

 

If I'm actually trying to put together a business model, I think Princess is about as realistic as I can get to provide the product I have in mind. They basically pioneered Alaska so developing a market in a non-tropical location might make sense to them. They would cross over the demographics that would be necessary to attract enough clientele.  They have had some ships recently that are big, but not gargantuan size big, among a fleet that has megaships as well.

[klfrodo]

I'm thinking that Kmom needs to  just become an entrepreneur and start her own cruiseline just like Royal and Carnival did.

If it's an unsinkable idea, find some capital investors, buy a used cruise ship, and start your own business instead of spending someone elses money.

If it's the great money maker that she's says it is, then the majors will buy her out after she has proven the concept.

 

Personally,,,, Lake Shore Drive is no Half Moon Cay.

[naxer]

59 minutes ago, jerrya72 said:

I live close to Travers City, MI which is a tourist town, we do get some cruise ships that stop here.  I checked into one but for the price I could do a 7 day Carnival cruise with cheers and airfare included. I would do a great lakes cruise if it was more affordable. 

I live in an area on Lake Michigan that does get some tourist cruises, not to mention a couple of cargo/car/passenger ferries that go between Michigan and Wisconsin.  I like the idea, but I think the appeal and ease of your own car will always win in the long run--at least to the point of making it profitable for a cruise line.  We just came through a couple weeks of almost continuous cold rain and temps in the 50s and 60s--that's a lot different than the warm passing showers of the Caribbean.  Everyone inside on a little boat could get old. But I wouldn't live anywhere else. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by naxer

[chengkp75]

While the small, high end (and lots of them are not "high end", just expensive) lines may be having a good business model, that does not translate into a greatly expanded market.  What you are proposing would likely double the Great Lakes cruises' total capacity with just one or two ships.  There is no telling whether or not the market could withstand that increase in supply.  As others have noted, the cruise lines do their demographic studies and determine not only what kind of ships their target market want, but where they want to go, and most would not choose a "domestic" (US and Canada only) itinerary.  As for using lakes ships in other markets in the off season, again, a ship built for one demographic and one market, does not necessarily translate to success in another market and demographic.

[Elaine5715]

1 hour ago, KmomChicago said:

 

I understand this view - however I truly think the success of the small lines shows there is an interest in our Great Lakes. National Geographic did a great article on them this past year. I think they have been an overlooked treasure for a long time. Someone will eventually take advantage of this.

 

I think an interest is also apparent in ships like the SS Badger https://www.ssbadger.com/ which runs between Wisconsin and Michigan already. It's a little short thing but it's awfully cute and a return to an earlier time in some ways.

The Badger is a car ferry.  

[cmukid87]

Great Lakes cruising would be awesome!  Slightly bias since I live in Michigan, though.

[Old Fart Cruisers]

All you have to do is design a cruise ship with all the Carnival venues and amenities you crave, that will also comply with seawaymax specifications:

Length740 ft (225.6 m)

Beam78 ft (23.8 m)

Height116.5 ft (35.5 m)

Draft26.51 ft (8.1 m)

Then just convince Carnival to build it and operate it in the great lakes in the summer and Caribbean or other itineraries the rest of the year😃

[Old Fart Cruisers]

Just don't forget to include a Guy's Burgers in your design. 

[hpugirl27]

I would like to try a Great Lakes cruise.  I'm from upstate NY, close to Niagara Falls (so, also a Great Lake and cool Canadian city for a stop).  But I'm also in the subset of cruisers who really doesn't love the hot weather of the Caribbean Islands (but do it and love it anyways for the cruising experience!)  There's tons of great cities around the lakes...wine tours are big in my area which could be another shore excursion  😉

[chengkp75]

A further hinderance is that most, if not all, of the Great Lakes are in "no discharge zones" of the various states, meaning that even treated sewage, that can be discharged at sea elsewhere, is not allowed to be discharged in the Great Lakes, so each ship (and the bigger the ship, the more sewage to hold) will need to be held and pumped ashore to municipalities or contractors.

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

Logistically how would you get the ship up there? And then out again? 

[NCTribeFan]

I think a ship more along the lines of HAL's Zaandam. Smaller than Fantasy class. My 1st HAL cruise was on her to Hawaii.  I was booked on her for April 2020 FLL - Montreal. So sorry that didn't happen. 

 

Not a fan of having a ship full of rugrats, which is what you'd get during the summer months. 😉

 

But as a Cleveland native, I like the idea. I've also looked at prices but if I want to cruise multiple times a year, it's not in my cruise budget.

[chengkp75]

39 minutes ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

Logistically how would you get the ship up there? And then out again? 

 

4 minutes ago, NCTribeFan said:

I think a ship more along the lines of HAL's Zaandam. Smaller than Fantasy class. My 1st HAL cruise was on her to Hawaii.  I was booked on her for April 2020 FLL - Montreal. So sorry that didn't happen. 

Zaandam is too long and too wide for the locks to get into the lakes.  While the MS Hamburg is well under the "SeawayMax" size, at 400 pax she is currently the largest using the lakes.  I don't see anything larger than perhaps 600 pax size actually fitting the locks and still being capable of ocean voyages in the off season, so about half of Zaandam.

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

3 hours ago, fyree39 said:

I would love something like this and have been looking at other lines that do these Great Lakes cruises. EXTREMELY expensive. I think it's because they'll have US workers making US wages, possibly union, pulling into US ports with US port fees and US taxes on all purchases anywhere on the ship. If you've ever been on a California Coastal, you'll see those prices are higher, too. And they have foreign nationals for employees who get lower wages. 

 

That's why I don't think it's viable for the usual Carnival cruiser.

I’m not saying it is viable for multi-day cruises…but the day cruises I’ve been on that last 4-6 hours…feed you, entertain you (eg live bands) and actually narrate US History….which is so invaluable.  Last one I went on was about $50. Would do that again at least annually if I lived near.  

Provide a smaller ship (typically 500 pax max), ala carte services.  Obviously rates would vary but I would try it out for $200/pp/day.

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

2 hours ago, klfrodo said:

Personally,,,, Lake Shore Drive is no Half Moon Cay

You are missing the point of a lake tour.  It is NOT comparable to the Caribbean in price nor scenery.  It is comparable in some ways to a European river cruise.  You almost have to love the history aspect, the familiarity and the slower pace.  
 

I did a Chicago river architecture cruise years ago.  The scenery was a little better than a walking tour.  The history narration was outstanding.  I’m not from Chi-town but they made you proud of Chicago history and all the changes/challenges they went thru.  

Edited June 28, 2021 by TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail

[klfrodo]

24 minutes ago, TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail said:

You are missing the point of a lake tour.  It is NOT comparable to the Caribbean in price nor scenery.  

The only point I'm missing is why people are so willing to spend someone elses money on bad ideas. If you and the OP think it's a wonderful idea, then start your new business and become billionaires. Take the business model and put it on Shark Tank to get new investment. Make it your own.

[jimbo5544]

3 hours ago, KmomChicago said:

 

Right, Jimbo. There's the rub. What I want is an experience and price point something in the area of Carnival. I get that this is so different than their usual gig as to make it a hard sell at best.

 

I think my vision is too far from American as well, though, in the other direction. I want something family oriented, with rugrats all over the place. I realize it won't be Caribbean cheap, but I want it a lot more affordable than American Cruise Line.  

 

If I'm actually trying to put together a business model, I think Princess is about as realistic as I can get to provide the product I have in mind. They basically pioneered Alaska so developing a market in a non-tropical location might make sense to them. They would cross over the demographics that would be necessary to attract enough clientele.  They have had some ships recently that are big, but not gargantuan size big, among a fleet that has megaships as well.

A couple of years ago, I put together a package that I gave to some mgt friends at Carnival, that I thought was right on.  It was to take a Fantasy class ship, do a real makeover on her (mostly interior) and re-market her in a totally upscale enhanced cruise experience.  This experience (I called Carnival classic) would bring back the little things dropped along the way and retain the Carnival FUN .  LEt’s say they were not quiteas high on it as I was…..

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

33 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

The only point I'm missing is why people are so willing to spend someone elses money on bad ideas. If you and the OP think it's a wonderful idea, then start your new business and become billionaires. Take the business model and put it on Shark Tank to get new investment. Make it your own.

Thanks for the snide reply.  I never said it was a wonderful idea.  I said a tour like this one was never intended to be JUST LIKE a Caribbean cruise.  It’s a high-end concept; maybe your idea of what defines Carnival is 3 days to the Bahamas.

Edited June 28, 2021 by TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail

[sassy0930]

6 hours ago, KmomChicago said:

Hear me out, fellow passengers.  Post-pandemic, there just has GOT to be a seasonal market for Great Lakes cruises.  I know there are already several high end outfits doing this on rather smallish cute little mini cruise ships. This is not what I am talking about at all. 

 

I'm talking about a new, purpose-built, biggest that can get through the locks and canals, Carnival-branded, family oriented, amenity laden, modern vessel with a US and Canada itinerary. It seems with the endless and growing hassles of air travel, and the concerns coming out of our little minor recent public health issue, something out of, say, Cleveland or Toledo, would be able to attract enough passengers to fill up a warm-weather schedule.  

 

Seriously! I know talks come up on this topic from time to time but let's assume a hotshot designer could get enough passengers and stuff on a big, but small enough, ship to appeal to megaship aficionados to do closed loops of 3, 4, 5, 7, or 11 nights, for example from the American Midwest. What other barriers exist and how do we all convince John Heald's bosses to overcome them and  move forward?

Uhhhh, No thanks. People in the towns along the great lakes aren't really interested in sharing. LOL 

[sassy0930]

4 hours ago, jerrya72 said:

I live close to Travers City, MI which is a tourist town, we do get some cruise ships that stop here.  I checked into one but for the price I could do a 7 day Carnival cruise with cheers and airfare included. I would do a great lakes cruise if it was more affordable. 

And I think it's important to remember that people in the Traverse City area, when told that a bigger ship would like to dock in west bay, were UP IN ARMS! The infrastructure in this area is not well equipped to add an extra several hundred people every couple of days on top of the peak of tourist season. You wouldn't get the happy "we're so glad you're here" if you dock your ship in our bay. LOL

[KmomChicago]

3 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

The Badger is a car ferry.  

yes with little staterooms and lounges. It’s just 4 hours but looks like fun.

[KmomChicago]

3 hours ago, Old Fart Cruisers said:

All you have to do is design a cruise ship with all the Carnival venues and amenities you crave, that will also comply with seawaymax specifications:

Length740 ft (225.6 m)

Beam78 ft (23.8 m)

Height116.5 ft (35.5 m)

Draft26.51 ft (8.1 m)

Then just convince Carnival to build it and operate it in the great lakes in the summer and Caribbean or other itineraries the rest of the year😃

I know right? What can possibly go wrong? A girl can dream.

[jimbo5544]

8 minutes ago, KmomChicago said:

I know right? What can possibly go wrong? A girl can dream.

I bet people laughed when someone came up with the idea at buying the old beat up Princess ships and doing a makeover and then a new cruise line called Azamara as well.  Nothing wrong with new ideas, makes everybody think outside the box.