Horizon vs. replacement ships

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I think you may have mentioned this prior in a different discussion, but what are your thoughts on Azipods in general?  Are they more prone to failure than other propulsions systems?

Yes, I feel they are.  While people think they've been around for a long time, and they have in fact been used on ships for about 30 years,  when you think of the number of ships outfitted with them, the historical data set is still quite small (about a hundred vessels).  So, in maritime terms, the concept is still quite new, especially compared to shafted propulsion, and so premature failures and increased maintenance due to material/design flaws are to be expected.  As the data grows on long term use of the pods, especially the large ones on cruise ships (which account for nearly all azipod failures), the design will be improved, the materials will be improved, leading to better reliability.

 

There are 50,000 merchant ships operating today, nearly all with shafted propulsion, and the system has been in use for over 150 years, so the knowledge of the system is far greater than the 100 vessels over 20-30 years.

 

The main advantage of azipods is the capital expense when the ship is built.  Instead of two shafted propulsion systems (motors, shaft & bearings, propeller, variable pitch system), two or three stern thrusters, two rudders and 4 steering motors, you buy two azipods to do the same thing.

Edited December 9, 2021 by chengkp75

[jimbo5544]

24 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, I feel they are.  While people think they've been around for a long time, and they have in fact been used on ships for about 30 years,  when you think of the number of ships outfitted with them, the historical data set is still quite small (about a hundred vessels).  So, in maritime terms, the concept is still quite new, especially compared to shafted propulsion, and so premature failures and increased maintenance due to material/design flaws are to be expected.  As the data grows on long term use of the pods, especially the large ones on cruise ships (which account for nearly all azipod failures), the design will be improved, the materials will be improved, leading to better reliability.

 

There are 50,000 merchant ships operating today, nearly all with shafted propulsion, and the system has been in use for over 150 years, so the knowledge of the system is far greater than the 100 vessels over 20-30 years.

 

The main advantage of azipods is the capital expense when the ship is built.  Instead of two shafted propulsion systems (motors, shaft & bearings, propeller, variable pitch system), two or three stern thrusters, two rudders and 4 steering motors, you buy two azipods to do the same thing.

As usual, appreciate your knowledge, thanks for the response.

[SNJCruisers]

7 hours ago, richfret said:

I got a $600 Carnival cruise credit for 2 other cancelled cruises.  Also a $200 Horizon credit.  Then add a $50 TA credit.  I don't care what ship I cruise with, that will make it fun.  In addition, I expect what with cancellations and transfers, there will be fewer people on this cruise then would have been, so the Liberty will appear more spacious than the Horizon.  Plus, I am a Cruise-a-holic, so any cruise ship would do anyway.

Rich....when did you become happywife0921?  She was concerned about the repair possibly not being done by March, so I suggested that she cruise on the newest ship in the fleet to alleviate those concerns. 

Since you're a cruise a holic, why not spend your 850 OBC on a Fantasy Class ship?

[Denise72]

On 12/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, Pellaz said:

 

I remember the Liberty had a much more serious propulsion issue years ago now, where her max speed was reduced significantly and Carnival had to swap her out for short-distance cruises (Florida E. coast to Bahamas) for a while. 

At the time, you explained -- very well, as always! -- that the problem was in the windings or bushings (?) and it would require a drydock and cutting through the hull to resolve. 😮   

 

I'm assuming that Liberty eventually got fixed, although I don't actually know when.  (Anyone know?)  

 

This is my concern as well, and one I haven't been able to get a straight answer about from Carnival. I am a little disappointed to lose the extra amenities of the Horizon for the Liberty but I can live with that. On a ship is on a ship. However, we are suppose to be going to the Southern Caribbean and we paid a premium for that over a standard 7 day cruise. I want to know if we are going to be able to reach our destination.

[matymil]

All this back and forth about replacement ships....ive been on newer and older ships and honestly my least favorite cruise when we went on the 1st USA cruise on the Vista. And my favorite was probably the Liberty which is replacing the Horizon. I trust Carnival to provide me with a good time no matter what ship I'm on.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, Denise72 said:

This is my concern as well, and one I haven't been able to get a straight answer about from Carnival. I am a little disappointed to lose the extra amenities of the Horizon for the Liberty but I can live with that. On a ship is on a ship. However, we are suppose to be going to the Southern Caribbean and we paid a premium for that over a standard 7 day cruise. I want to know if we are going to be able to reach our destination.

Is your concern whether the Liberty can make the southern itinerary?  I looked at the 8 day Horizon itineraries, and the longest run is Miami to Aruba, which requires 17 knots to make the itinerary, and the Liberty is easily able to make that, as that is 77% of top speed.  Now, having said that, any ship can have a failure that affects speed, whether it is older like Liberty, or newer like Horizon.

[Roscoe13]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Is your concern whether the Liberty can make the southern itinerary?  I looked at the 8 day Horizon itineraries, and the longest run is Miami to Aruba, which requires 17 knots to make the itinerary, and the Liberty is easily able to make that, as that is 77% of top speed.  Now, having said that, any ship can have a failure that affects speed, whether it is older like Liberty, or newer like Horizon.

Chief knows his stuff.  In 2012  I cruised on the Valor, another Conquest class ship, all the way to Aruba and Curacao.  Even made it back to Miami 8 days later.

[Denise72]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Is your concern whether the Liberty can make the southern itinerary?  I looked at the 8 day Horizon itineraries, and the longest run is Miami to Aruba, which requires 17 knots to make the itinerary, and the Liberty is easily able to make that, as that is 77% of top speed.  Now, having said that, any ship can have a failure that affects speed, whether it is older like Liberty, or newer like Horizon.

Yes that was my concern. Not because of the older ship but because of the previous propulsion problems that they initially didn't fix (had to switch her with the Glory for shorter itineraries) that I was unsure if they ever fixed. Thanks for setting my mind at ease. 😊 

 

14 hours ago, matymil said:

All this back and forth about replacement ships....ive been on newer and older ships and honestly my least favorite cruise when we went on the 1st USA cruise on the Vista. And my favorite was probably the Liberty which is replacing the Horizon. I trust Carnival to provide me with a good time no matter what ship I'm on.

I have been on the Liberty twice. She is a great ship but she doesn't have the amenities that we were looking forward to though. We will still have a good time but I am a little disappointed. This would also have been our first cruise on any ship newer than the Liberty and we were looking forward to that. 

[jsglow]

On 12/9/2021 at 6:32 AM, Jenal2 said:

That sounds promising.  Please elaborate.  

Well, Horizon is one of the newer classes of ships where public space and venue size haven't kept pace with passenger counts.  For example, Horizon holds 4000 people but the piano bar is roughly the same size.  This phenomena is common across all newer builds on all brands.  The trend is to add significantly more revenue producing venues but to decrease simple 'open space'.  It's the way the industry is going overall.  Sunshine is the converted Destiny, the first ship ever to top 100,000 tons when she launched more than 20 years ago.  In the conversion they added all the new 'toys' (and some cabins) but she's still a bit 'old school' at about 3000 pax.  Further, some of the best pax to common area ratios are on the Spirit Class ships, now all approaching 20 years old.  We're thrilled to be on Pride for Europe these next two years for precisely that reason.

 

Now there are many, many folks that disagree with me and that's perfectly fine.  But if you search you'll find discussions about the lack of public space on the newer builds on many threads. 

[Mr305]

Something happened to or on Horizon, she was bound for Italy for repairs, believe Palermo.  However, after several days at sea, she made a hard left and is just off the coast of Bermuda.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Mr305

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Denise72 said:

Yes that was my concern. Not because of the older ship but because of the previous propulsion problems that they initially didn't fix (had to switch her with the Glory for shorter itineraries) that I was unsure if they ever fixed.

Rest assured that ships will not "never fix a mechanical problem".  In a situation like the Liberty, the ship received a "condition of class" from their classification society, requiring that repairs be made, and giving a timeline for the repairs to be completed.  "Conditions of class" affect the ship's insurance rating, and in many cases whether a ship is allowed to enter a port or not.  The classification societies are essentially "underwriters" who declare ships seaworthy for flag states to continue to issue the document of registry (think car title) and insurance to allow the ship to continue in operation.

[jsglow]

3 hours ago, Mr305 said:

Something happened to or on Horizon, she was bound for Italy for repairs, believe Palermo.  However, after several days at sea, she made a hard left and is just off the coast of Bermuda.

Yep, she clearly made a hard left back to the northwest into Bermuda but is now again proceeding east at a healthy enough 16 knots after what appears to have been a port visit.  I wonder if they had a medical situation onboard?  This is PURE SPECULATION but I suspect a positive Covid test or two might force such a diversion.

[Pellaz]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:56 PM, jsglow said:

Yep, she clearly made a hard left back to the northwest into Bermuda but is now again proceeding east at a healthy enough 16 knots after what appears to have been a port visit.  I wonder if they had a medical situation onboard?  This is PURE SPECULATION but I suspect a positive Covid test or two might force such a diversion.

 

A positive test would normally just involve onboard quarantine, in the staterooms required to be reserved for that purpose.   

A serious medical emergency, however, is a different story; I was once on a Royal ship that diverted overnight into Nassau to quickly offload a medically distressed passenger.  

[travelplus]

I've been told by my contacts to just wait out the delay and rebook on the Horizon vs the replacement cruise vessel. You won't regret the wait.

[Ohio Bucki]

Does anyone know what happened to the Horizon crew, are they still onboard or were they transferred to the replacement ship?

[Mr305]

Crew usually remains onboard during dry dock, it’s a short one anyways.  Takes more time to go there and comeback than the actual dry dock.

[happywife0921]

Thanks for the input everyone, I booked the itinerary anyway just because mom really wants a birthday cruise with the family and I know we’ll have a good time regardless of the ship. Also, the extent of my previous ship knowledge is “board ship, have fun”. Boy did reading ChengKP75’s posts expand my horizons! No pun intended 😉

[ninjacat123]

Anyone know where Sunshine is?  I'm booked to sail on Sunshine out of Charleston Jan 13, 2022.  TIA!

[Joe817]

2 minutes ago, ninjacat123 said:

Anyone know where Sunshine is?  I'm booked to sail on Sunshine out of Charleston Jan 13, 2022.  TIA!

According to Marinetraffic.com, it's at the Miami cruise terminal.

[jimbo5544]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:34 PM, happywife0921 said:

Thanks for the input everyone, I booked the itinerary anyway just because mom really wants a birthday cruise with the family and I know we’ll have a good time regardless of the ship. Also, the extent of my previous ship knowledge is “board ship, have fun”. Boy did reading ChengKP75’s posts expand my horizons! No pun intended 😉

We are lucky we have him as a resource.