NCL trip insurance vs. Brand X

[Babr]

1 hour ago, iamtrustworthy said:

Hi ChiefMateJRK,

 

> This whole issue of "when the clock starts" for the pre-existing condition exemption waiver (and perhaps CFAR where appropriate) gives me a headache.  I've read the various interpretations and they leave me wanting.

 

We tell people this: "Your Initial Trip Deposit Date is the earliest date that a payment in cash of any kind was paid towards your travel arrangements."

 

There are a few plans (I offer 4 of them) that give the waiver of the pre-existing condition exclusion at Final Payment.

 

Steve Dasseos

Do the stipulations used to determine initial deposit date also apply to policies purchased at final payment?  If someone buys a policy at final payment, can he be covered for pre-existing conditions regardless of when he paid for the first travel arrangement or whether he used a future cruise credit or transferred funds from another cruise?

 

[ChiefMateJRK]

44 minutes ago, iamtrustworthy said:

A typical Pre-Existing Medical Condition definition (varies per policy) is any medical condition, which manifested itself, became acute or exhibited symptoms which would have caused one to seek diagnosis, care or treatment; or which medical advice, diagnosis, care or treatment was recommended or received (this includes being referred to a medical professional for any reason);

The condition doesn’t have to be diagnosed.

In my opinion there is not any gray in this definition.

I have to respectfully disagree.  Medical conditions are often not isolated, stand-alone issues.  Sure, when you're twenty and break your leg, it's pretty much a condition that can be well defined and it either fits in the box or not.  Not so much as folks age and have interrelated, compounding conditions.  I won't go into the details because it's personal information, but hopefully you're accepting that not every situation is as cut-and-dried as that definition might imply.  I'm am particularly amused by the "the condition doesn't have to be diagnosed" comment.  That one is pure insurance company 💩.

 

I was also referring to the unsolvable puzzle of when the "first" payment was made towards my trip expenses.  Somewhere around here I have luggage that I bought three decades ago....

[GeezerCouple]

14 minutes ago, Babr said:

Do the stipulations used to determine initial deposit date also apply to policies purchased at final payment?  If someone buys a policy at final payment, can he be covered for pre-existing conditions regardless of when he paid for the first travel arrangement or whether he used a future cruise credit or transferred funds from another cruise?

 

 

Hi Babr,

 

I'm obviously not Steve (and I don't play him on TV! 😉 )...

 

But one reason that we do not use a "buy policy at final payment" is because of the pre-existing condition situation.  We have some "pre-existing conditions" as our *regular* health insurance would term it, which is very different than how travel insurance defines them.  (For example - and this is not one of ours - if someone has diabetes, then even if they have had no medical tests, no changes of medication, no medical visits, and no one suggested they should, and there were no changes of any kind, etc.... then we'd still have diabetes!  But that apparently wouldn't be an issue for travel insurance if there had been no changes for the required look back period - or so it seemed to me from the definitions.)

 

Therefore, IF one of us unexpectedly needed to have a change in medication or something like that, say two weeks (or a month or such) before that final payment, then... I think we'd be in trouble, as we wouldn't meet that look-back criterion when final payment is due.  And we'd already be in a penalty phase, possible heavy penalty.

 

Anyway, we don't want to take any chances, so we just start the coverage within that initial time deadline after first payment.

 

We've had quite a few claims, and never had one turned down (other than the tips for a taxi on a larger claim, because I forgot to get a receipt for that, and... cheap lesson/reminder about *always* getting a receipt).

GC

[Babr]

1 minute ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

Hi Babr,

 

I'm obviously not Steve (and I don't play him on TV! 😉 )...

 

But one reason that we do not use a "buy policy at final payment" is because of the pre-existing condition situation.  We have some "pre-existing conditions" as our *regular* health insurance would term it, which is very different than how travel insurance defines them.  (For example - and this is not one of ours - if someone has diabetes, then even if they have had no medical tests, no changes of medication, no medical visits, and no one suggested they should, and there were no changes of any kind, etc.... then we'd still have diabetes!  But that apparently wouldn't be an issue for travel insurance if there had been no changes for the required look back period - or so it seemed to me from the definitions.)

 

Therefore, IF one of us unexpectedly needed to have a change in medication or something like that, say two weeks (or a month or such) before that final payment, then... I think we'd be in trouble, as we wouldn't meet that look-back criterion when final payment is due.  And we'd already be in a penalty phase, possible heavy penalty.

 

Anyway, we don't want to take any chances, so we just start the coverage within that initial time deadline after first payment.

 

We've had quite a few claims, and never had one turned down (other than the tips for a taxi on a larger claim, because I forgot to get a receipt for that, and... cheap lesson/reminder about *always* getting a receipt).

GC

There is no penalty before final payment as long as one has a refundable deposit. If there is a change  in the pre-existing condition during the look-back period, just cancel the cruise. No loss except for air fare which would be compensated with a voucher.

 

So the question remains, can someone qualify for the waiver at final payment regardless of the stipulations applied to determining initial deposit date?

[ChiefMateJRK]

41 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

Therefore, IF one of us unexpectedly needed to have a change in medication or something like that, say two weeks (or a month or such) before that final payment, then... I think we'd be in trouble, as we wouldn't meet that look-back criterion when final payment is due.

That's not how I understand it.  IF the pre-existing condition exemption is waived at final payment, than pre-existing conditions become irrelevant wrt insurance claims.  Is that correct Steve?  If so, than my new (and only) favorite insurance policies are those that allow me to buy the insurance at final payment due date with waiver of the pre-existing condition exemptions.  To this point, I didn't think such a breed existed.  Perhaps I've misunderstood and I'm looking for bigfoot. 🦧

[iamtrustworthy]

3 hours ago, Babr said:

Do the stipulations used to determine initial deposit date also apply to policies purchased at final payment?  If someone buys a policy at final payment, can he be covered for pre-existing conditions regardless of when he paid for the first travel arrangement or whether he used a future cruise credit or transferred funds from another cruise?

 

Hi Babr,

 

> If someone buys a policy at final payment, can he be covered for pre-existing conditions regardless of when he paid for the first travel arrangement or whether he used a future cruise credit or transferred funds from another cruise?

 

If you still have money to pay when you come to the final payment, the answer is "yes".

 

Steve Dasseos

 

 

[Babr]

2 hours ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

That's not how I understand it.  IF the pre-existing condition exemption is waived at final payment, than pre-existing conditions become irrelevant wrt insurance claims.  Is that correct Steve?  If so, than my new (and only) favorite insurance policies are those that allow me to buy the insurance at final payment due date with waiver of the pre-existing condition exemptions.  To this point, I didn't think such a breed existed.  Perhaps I've misunderstood and I'm looking for bigfoot. 🦧

See post 81. Is this the answer? Looks like the waiver is granted at final payment when the balance is paid. As you say, pre-existing conditions become irrelevant.

Stipulations regarding initial deposit date do not apply.

 

If this is of interest to you, contact Steve to verify I’ve understood it correctly.

[iamtrustworthy]

3 hours ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

I have to respectfully disagree.  Medical conditions are often not isolated, stand-alone issues.  Sure, when you're twenty and break your leg, it's pretty much a condition that can be well defined and it either fits in the box or not.  Not so much as folks age and have interrelated, compounding conditions.  I won't go into the details because it's personal information, but hopefully you're accepting that not every situation is as cut-and-dried as that definition might imply.  I'm am particularly amused by the "the condition doesn't have to be diagnosed" comment.  That one is pure insurance company 💩.

 

I was also referring to the unsolvable puzzle of when the "first" payment was made towards my trip expenses.  Somewhere around here I have luggage that I bought three decades ago....

Hi ChiefMateJRK,

 

> hopefully you're accepting that not every situation is as cut-and-dried as that definition might imply.

 

I have Asperger's and I'm on the high functioning end of the Autism Spectrum. There are drawbacks to this when it comes to social interaction and reading social cues, but one of the good parts is that I have an excellent rote memory. I also cannot generalize nor "read between the lines" so I take everything I hear or read literally. There are no gray areas for me in anything.

 

Either someone has one or more medical conditions that would meet a policy's specific pre-existing medical condition definition or they don't.

 

>  I'm am particularly amused by the "the condition doesn't have to be diagnosed" comment

 

I have met many people who are undergoing tests for something their doctor is concerned about but haven't yet received a specific diagnosis. Unfortunately, some of them passed away before the diagnosis was made. I made it clear to each of them that there was no benefit to buy a trip cancellation policy because their claim would have been denied. Yet, each of those people had previously been assured by others that a trip cancellation policy would have covered them specifically because their was not diagnosed.

 

> I was also referring to the unsolvable puzzle of when the "first" payment was made towards my trip expenses.

 

The initial trip deposit date is not an unsolvable puzzle. I define your Initial Trip Deposit Date as "the earliest date that a payment in cash of any kind was paid towards your travel arrangements."

 

I specifically did not use "trip expenses" because there are some expenses that are incurred yet are not specific to only one particular trip. Your statement "Somewhere around here I have luggage that I bought three decades ago" is a perfect example of this. Buying luggage for a trip is not a payment towards your travel arrangements.

 

I hope this made sense.

 

Steve Dasseos

[iamtrustworthy]

2 hours ago, Babr said:

There is no penalty before final payment as long as one has a refundable deposit. If there is a change  in the pre-existing condition during the look-back period, just cancel the cruise. No loss except for air fare which would be compensated with a voucher.

 

So the question remains, can someone qualify for the waiver at final payment regardless of the stipulations applied to determining initial deposit date?

Hi Babr,

 

> can someone qualify for the waiver at final payment regardless of the stipulations applied to determining initial deposit date?

 

Yes. If they are meeting the other requirements (able to travel, insure the full length and insure their full per person prepaid, non-refundable trip costs including airfare, if any), then anything that would be defined as a pre-existing medical condition during the policy's Lookback Period is covered.

 

Steve Dasseos

[iamtrustworthy]

2 hours ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

That's not how I understand it.  IF the pre-existing condition exemption is waived at final payment, than pre-existing conditions become irrelevant wrt insurance claims.  Is that correct Steve?  If so, than my new (and only) favorite insurance policies are those that allow me to buy the insurance at final payment due date with waiver of the pre-existing condition exemptions.  To this point, I didn't think such a breed existed.  Perhaps I've misunderstood and I'm looking for bigfoot. 🦧

Hi ChiefMateJRK,

 

> the pre-existing condition exemption is waived at final payment

 

The pre-existing condition exclusion is not being waived at final payment. The waiver of the pre-Existing medical condition exclusion will happen if the policy is bought anytime before but not later than the deadline. Some deadlines are the Final Payment Date and others are within 24 hours of the Final Payment Date.

 

> If so, than my new (and only) favorite insurance policies are those that allow me to buy the insurance at final payment due date with waiver of the pre-existing condition exemptions.  To this point, I didn't think such a breed existed.

 

These might be a good fit for you or not. It depends on your State of residence, age(s), per person trip cost, length of trip and destination.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

Steve Dasseos

[iamtrustworthy]

I need to clarify this that I wrote a short time ago:

"I have met many people who are undergoing tests for something their doctor is concerned about but haven't yet received a specific diagnosis. Unfortunately, some of them passed away before the diagnosis was made. I made it clear to each of them that there was no benefit to buy a trip cancellation policy because their claim would have been denied. Yet, each of those people had previously been assured by others that a trip cancellation policy would have covered them specifically because their was not diagnosed."

 

The more accurate way to state that is:

 

"I have met many people who are undergoing tests for something their doctor is concerned about but haven't yet received a specific diagnosis. Unfortunately, some of them passed away before the diagnosis was made. For the ones that were not insurable, I made it clear to each of them that there was no benefit to buy a trip cancellation policy because their claim would be denied. Yet, each of those people had previously been assured by others that a trip cancellation policy would have covered them specifically because their was not diagnosed."

 

Steve Dasseos

Edited March 30, 2022 by iamtrustworthy

[Babr]

7 hours ago, iamtrustworthy said:

Hi Babr,

 

> can someone qualify for the waiver at final payment regardless of the stipulations applied to determining initial deposit date?

 

Yes. If they are meeting the other requirements (able to travel, insure the full length and insure their full per person prepaid, non-refundable trip costs including airfare, if any), then anything that would be defined as a pre-existing medical condition during the policy's Lookback Period is covered.

 

Steve Dasseos

Thank you for taking the time to clarify my questions. That is the way I thought it worked. I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing something.

[Cruiser933]

I am struggling with this part:
< I define your Initial Trip Deposit Date as "the earliest date that a payment in cash of any kind was paid towards your travel arrangements." >

 

I purchased a CruiseNext certificate in 2019. I apply it as a deposit for a cruise in late 2021. I pay the balance on the cruise in spring 2022. Cash changed hands twice, in 2019 and 2022, but I would think the date I applied the Cruise Next to a a specific cruise would be the deposit date for CFAR. Is that correct?

[iamtrustworthy]

55 minutes ago, Cruiser933 said:

I am struggling with this part:
< I define your Initial Trip Deposit Date as "the earliest date that a payment in cash of any kind was paid towards your travel arrangements." >

 

I purchased a CruiseNext certificate in 2019. I apply it as a deposit for a cruise in late 2021. I pay the balance on the cruise in spring 2022. Cash changed hands twice, in 2019 and 2022, but I would think the date I applied the Cruise Next to a a specific cruise would be the deposit date for CFAR. Is that correct?

Hi Cruiser933,

 

Were you ever given FCCs or were you always refunded in cash when a cruise was cancelled?

 

Steve Dasseos

[Cruiser933]

When I was on a cruise in September 2019, I bought a certificate for $125 that could be used as a deposit for a future cruise.

 

I applied that certificate in November 2021 as the deposit for a cruise in August 2022. I have not paid the balance on that cruise yet. No canceled cruises and no FCC involved. When I purchase insurance, I was planning to use the November 2021 date as the deposit date, but no cash changed hands on that date.

[ChiefMateJRK]

1 hour ago, Cruiser933 said:

I am struggling with this part:
< I define your Initial Trip Deposit Date as "the earliest date that a payment in cash of any kind was paid towards your travel arrangements." >

 

I purchased a CruiseNext certificate in 2019. I apply it as a deposit for a cruise in late 2021. I pay the balance on the cruise in spring 2022. Cash changed hands twice, in 2019 and 2022, but I would think the date I applied the Cruise Next to a a specific cruise would be the deposit date for CFAR. Is that correct?

Excellent question.  From everything I've read, it sounds like 2019 would start the clock and you would have no chance of qualifying for one of those "within 21 days of initial payment" policies (i.e. most policies).

[Babr]

Steve will be back  to answer. See post #58 in the meantime. He has policies that will count the day the certificate is applied as initial deposit.

[ChiefMateJRK]

19 hours ago, iamtrustworthy said:

The pre-existing condition exclusion is not being waived at final payment. The waiver of the pre-Existing medical condition exclusion will happen if the policy is bought anytime before but not later than the deadline. Some deadlines are the Final Payment Date and others are within 24 hours of the Final Payment Date.

Thanks for the clarifications Steve.  I was aware of that but I just generalized.

 

That said, it continues to baffle me why some will seem to defend the insurance companies setting the deadlines before (and sometimes way before) any non-refundable payments are due.  When I buy a house, I put down escrow money but the homeowner's policy doesn't need to be purchased until closing and I get the same coverage as if I had bought it sooner.  When I buy a car, I put down a deposit but the auto policy doesn't need to be in place until they turn over the keys and I again get the same coverage.  Here, if I don't pay for the insurance well in advance, I get much lesser coverage.  It doesn't baffle me why the insurance companies do this.  It just baffles me that people seem to accept it as "reasonable."

[njhorseman]

12 minutes ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Thanks for the clarifications Steve.  I was aware of that but I just generalized.

 

That said, it continues to baffle me why some will seem to defend the insurance companies setting the deadlines before (and sometimes way before) any non-refundable payments are due.  When I buy a house, I put down escrow money but the homeowner's policy doesn't need to be purchased until closing and I get the same coverage as if I had bought it sooner.  When I buy a car, I put down a deposit but the auto policy doesn't need to be in place until they turn over the keys and I again get the same coverage.  Here, if I don't pay for the insurance well in advance, I get much lesser coverage.  It doesn't baffle me why the insurance companies do this.  It just baffles me that people seem to accept it as "reasonable."

 What the insurers are doing is preventing what's called adverse selection by requiring payment shortly after making the cruise deposit in order to cover preexisting conditions. Otherwise they would potentially be on the hook to pay claims for people who had no intention of buying insurance but then bought insurance when they or a family member came down with an illness that they knew had the potential of resulting in a trip cancellation, medical or evacuation claim.  It would be similar to having to pay claims for someone who bought auto insurance only after they had an accident or someone who bought homeowners insurance only after a fire damaged their home.  Insurers also won't let you buy a new homeowners policy in a geographic area that has been placed under a severe storm warning such as a hurricane warning .

By the way not having to buy auto insurance before you take possession of the car or homeowners insurance before you close on the house is because you don't have an insurable interest in the car until you take possession or in the home until you close the sale on the home...in other words you have nothing to insure because you don't own them yet and there's no potential for adverse selection by your not purchasing insurance before you take possession. 

[ChiefMateJRK]

25 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

in other words you have nothing to insure

Bingo.  If all I have made is a fully refundable deposit, I have nothing to insure.  Thanks for helping me to make my point.   😎

[iamtrustworthy]

50 minutes ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Thanks for the clarifications Steve.  I was aware of that but I just generalized.

 

That said, it continues to baffle me why some will seem to defend the insurance companies setting the deadlines before (and sometimes way before) any non-refundable payments are due.  When I buy a house, I put down escrow money but the homeowner's policy doesn't need to be purchased until closing and I get the same coverage as if I had bought it sooner.  When I buy a car, I put down a deposit but the auto policy doesn't need to be in place until they turn over the keys and I again get the same coverage.  Here, if I don't pay for the insurance well in advance, I get much lesser coverage.  It doesn't baffle me why the insurance companies do this.  It just baffles me that people seem to accept it as "reasonable."

Hi ChiefMateJRK,

 

njhorseman did a good job explaining "adverse selection" and "insurable interest". There's another insurance concept that comes into play:

 

"Unilateral Contract" - A unilateral contract is a legally enforceable promise between legally competent parties (you and the insurance company). In a unilateral contract, you pay money to the insurance company and they are obligated to pay you money for covered claims defined by that policy. In addition, the company can only cancel the policy if it discovers that you were not eligible to buy the policy.

 

I have a draft of a complicated blog post that covers these concepts, so it looks like I'll have to finish and publish it soon.

 

All insurance policies are unilateral contracts which means that when someone buys one, the insurance can't later change what is covered. They can always add to the coverage through "endorsements" if the policyholder is receiving new benefits.

 

When someone buys a trip cancellation travel insurance plan, even if they only insure the value of their deposit (refundable or not), the insurance company is bound by the contract no matter how far in the future the trip is. If the insured person later develops a medical condition that results in a huge covered claim for the customer, they have to pay it.

 

However, most people don't think the insurance company has any risk until the penalty period. That thinking is wrong.

 

Steve Dasseos

[njhorseman]

21 minutes ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Bingo.  If all I have made is a fully refundable deposit, I have nothing to insure.  Thanks for helping me to make my point.   😎

No...you're taking something that I said with respect to auto and homeowners insurance and misapplying it to trip cancellation insurance. It's the prevention of adverse selection that causes the insurers to require an upfront commitment for multi peril trip cancellation insurance. If you look at the rates for trip cancellation insurance when a company offers  to waive the preexisting condition exclusion as long as you buy the insurance by the time you make your final payment you'll see that the premium for that policy may be higher than the premium for a policy that requires you to make the purchase within a week or two of your deposit or the coverages provided are significantly less, such as providing a much smaller amount of medical coverage or making that medical coverage secondary rather than primary. In addition that policy may not provide financial default coverage.

Edited March 30, 2022 by njhorseman

[iamtrustworthy]

8 minutes ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Bingo.  If all I have made is a fully refundable deposit, I have nothing to insure.  Thanks for helping me to make my point.   😎

Hi ChiefMateJRK,

 

If you insure your fully refundable deposit, there's no trip cancellation risk for the insurance company until the penalty starts.

 

But the insurance company is still bound by the unilateral contract until your scheduled trip is completed and you return home. They have taken on the risk that you will need to claim under any of all the other coverages that are not trip cancellation.

 

Steve Dasseos

[iamtrustworthy]

By the way, not all the plans that let someone buy at Final Payment are significantly more expensive than the policies that require you to make the purchase within 14 - 21 days of your deposit.

 

That said, I don't know why my competitors don't sell the less expensive plans.

 

Steve Dasseos

Edited March 31, 2022 by iamtrustworthy
typo

[ChiefMateJRK]

23 minutes ago, iamtrustworthy said:

All insurance policies are unilateral contracts which means that when someone buys one, the insurance can't later change what is covered.

Yeah, I get all that.  It would seem to argue against the insurance companies letting you buy the policy prior to your risk of incurring non-refundable losses.  Yet, they seem to demand the opposite.

14 minutes ago, iamtrustworthy said:

But the insurance company is still bound by the unilateral contract until your scheduled trip is completed and you return home. They have taken on the risk that you will need to claim under any of all the other coverages that are not trip cancellation.

There is no risk of me filing a claim that is not trip cancellation if I don't buy the insurance until time (period) of final payment.  The insurance doesn't start until I start my trip.